C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:03 pm

You come off as belligerent, with a single-minded focus on a fictional character's negative traits in a way that can be very tiring.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby xanderkh » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:13 pm

^

Pretty much. You have it cemented in your mind that Asuka is a bad person, no matter the "excuses", and when we try to show you evidence that contradicts your believe, you keep asking the same question in different ways, just so somehow you get an answer that correlates with your belief. Apparently, it seems unfathomable to you that Asuka can't be anything more than a spoiled brat, instead of a damaged teenager, struggling to find validation without being vulnerable.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:41 pm

Yeah, that seems to be the case from being this mildly autistic person who tries to understand this rather complicated character such as Asuka. I know some of you tried to point out some things about her in a more positive light, even though I have had a hard time being totally convinced by some of the answers I've received. Like when someone says that Asuka is a caring person, or that she's not all that nasty and mean to Shinji, or that she can change for the better, I would just usually go "really???", "is she really?", "how can that be so?", "how can she possibly be/do those things?". I'm not sure whether some of you might be glorifying Asuka a little bit or if I'm just being pessimistic about her, and only judging her by her negative traits from what I've seen.

I understand that it might be a bit tiresome for you guys to be going around in circles when the answers doesn't always struck me as clear and might need some clarifications. I guess I'm just not a hundred percent sure what parts of Asuka's characteristics are more true besides from what we've seen. And I'm also judging her by her interactions with Shinji and some of others, so that made me doubt that there's anything positive about or whether or not she could make things up for the way she treated all of them, to make amends.

But I'm guessing all of you are telling me that she isn't really all that I'm making her out to be, and that she can grow into a better person, given enough time and motivation.

And this might seem random, but how do you think she compares to the other characters outside of EVA, such as Lucy from Elfen Lied( besides the obvious differences)? Or Chitoge Kirisaki from Nisekoi? Or some of the other Tsunderes?
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:19 am

I know Asuka is a damaged teen, still I can't being myself to like her, more because of some Asuka fans that downplay her own wrongdoings, also a bit in Asuka herself, her chauvinism annoys me immensely, principally because she claims that she 'doesn't need anyone' but wants Shinji to be her 'Hero'.

Such sort of contradictory behavior reminds me of hypocrisy that is one of the things that I despise, that I despise like hell.

But still, yes, she is a damaged teen in the end, that doesn't mean you're obligated to have any sort of sympathy towards her, Sephinroth is damaged, Yuno Gasai, Suzaku Kururugi and etc...

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:47 am

View Original PostLt Light Ark wrote:principally because she claims that she 'doesn't need anyone' but wants Shinji to be her 'Hero'.

Such sort of contradictory behavior reminds me of hypocrisy that is one of the things that I despise, that I despise like hell.
Does the concept of "planning for the worst, hoping for the best" mean anything to you?

As a small child, she was not so much orphaned as actively abandoned by her parents. Convincing herself that she didn't need anyone was a coping strategy for that, a coping strategy that she had been using for most of her life by the time we meet her. Wanting to put that burden down is not hypocritical. Much of her interaction with Shinji can be explained if you compare what her model of an Eva pilot would be -- an idealized male counterpart to herself -- and what the awful reality was, with Shinji having enough baggage of his own that he couldn't even see Asuka's, let alone relieve her of the burden.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:04 am

View Original PostLt Light Ark wrote:I know Asuka is a damaged teen, still I can't being myself to like her, more because of some Asuka fans that downplay her own wrongdoings,

From what I've seen, nobody ahs said anything her wrongdoings, just provided context you've chosen to ignore. Off course, you have no issue considering context when it invalidates her saving the world on multiple occasions. On the other hand, you continue to ignore her growth or the kindness she has shown in spite of having every reason to turn out a complete a failure. Someone who responds to attempted murder with kindness is not a bad person. Someone who can do that after going through what Asuka has can be considered heroic.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:26 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Does the concept of "planning for the worst, hoping for the best" mean anything to you?

As a small child, she was not so much orphaned as actively abandoned by her parents. Convincing herself that she didn't need anyone was a coping strategy for that, a coping strategy that she had been using for most of her life by the time we meet her. Wanting to put that burden down is not hypocritical. Much of her interaction with Shinji can be explained if you compare what her model of an Eva pilot would be -- an idealized male counterpart to herself -- and what the awful reality was, with Shinji having enough baggage of his own that he couldn't even see Asuka's, let alone relieve her of the burden.


Yes, I do understand that completely, now look the OP's words, Shinji should have corresponded her expectatives whilst daring to claim that Shinji was not worthy of her ignoring the fact that she was not worthy of him either, none was worthy of the other, Asuka is not above Shinji, neither Shinji above Asuka.

I find unbelievably infuriating when they do blame Shinji because he did not got over his problems, conveniently ignoring that if you do consider that Shinji should have, forgetting his serious issues man up to be that idealized male that Asuka did want, Asuka should have likewise grow up and become healthy from nothing.

What is...ridiculous.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:34 pm

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:From what I've seen, nobody ahs said anything her wrongdoings, just provided context you've chosen to ignore. Off course, you have no issue considering context when it invalidates her saving the world on multiple occasions. On the other hand, you continue to ignore her growth or the kindness she has shown in spite of having every reason to turn out a complete a failure. Someone who responds to attempted murder with kindness is not a bad person. Someone who can do that after going through what Asuka has can be considered heroic.


Did she had a choice? Let's just watch it again, so okay, she did save the world, Shinji and Ayanami did too, regarding kindness, Shinji was polite to her most of time, right, he is very withdrawn, but at least he was not a jerk like people sometimes are in RL, a failure? Wasn't she the best Eva Pilot? By her considerations (as she wants to be the best Eva pilot) you can say that she was not a failure (remember Eva Series).

Now in that scene, she did touched him, instead of Shinji needing to do a move first (where we know that he tried to murder her because he needed her reaction so he could be certain that he exists), she needed to do a move first, could she fight against him? She could, but if she murdered him, she would be totally alone, I think that fact alone was disgusting to her.

The fact that she hadn't a choice to try to deal with Shinji, have in mind that he is not the idealized male she did want and etc...

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby NoAltRealities » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:26 pm

I mean, at this point with all the signs that she is indeed choosing to acknowledge a mad Shinji with affection, it's pretty clear it wasn't just to save her own skin. It really isn't a coincidence the titlecard of the scene is "I Need You". Not to mention that the caress mirrors the one Yui gave to Shinji as a final goodbye. Why would they put the caress there if it didn't mean anything? And given the themes of the show are optimistic to the possibilities of self improvement, it really isn't a stretch to say it really was out of "love/affection". In fact I have no doubt.

The entire show she struggled to accurately express how she truly felt ( whatever you think it was ) due to the Barriers she put up. Eventually her relationship with others, especially Shinji, declines into failure . That Hedgehog dilemma you see mentioned to death on this site.

Instrumentality clearly affected her in some way if she went from her rather dying than being one with Shinji, to what we saw. A main reason why people don't like their relationship is because they crossed to many red lines in their eyes. This is a valid and reasonable way to think. So many people saw how Shinji failed to reciprocate to Asuka's advances, how he masturbated in the hospital, and seemingly strangle her TWICE. To many people the line was crossed and an indicator that Shinji was a big no no for Asuka ( even her own VA I think ). But while they cannot look past shinjis actions and believes that Asuka deserves someone better, let's see how Asuka herself responded to him at the end of it all.

-She ( seemingly ) chooses to return to the real world alluding to the possibility she had a similar resolve to Shinji, although there is a possibility she didn't have her self awareness during instrumentality. I like to think she did because that way it's more interesting and not a huge 'fuck you' to her imo but I digress
- she chooses to lie down next to the same other person who has hurt her deeply ( she's guilty too )
- and when he attempts to strangle her for real this time around, she responds with a caress. Huh. The last person you'd expect to show such open compassion is the very person who gives it. Contrasting to how Asuka was the one person Shinji wanted help from right before instrumentality but ultimately seems to rejects him. Now that's growth. But how can Asuka herself show such compassion? Surely it's just not realistic to think she forgot all the shit that Shinji did. And what happens next is
- "I feel sick/How Disgusting" . Yeah no, she didn't forget. A reminder that it is in fact Asuka and this is reality.
But there's also
- the last movie poster we see A/S with their backs turned to the viewers looking into the distance. Granted, can't see their faces, but we can see their BODY LANGUAGE. Neither of them seem tense, they seem relaxed. Almost at peace with each other. A rather positive scene and also the last thing we ever see of Evangelion canon unfortunately. At the very least they don't seem to be tense and dare I say they are almost comfortable

While the negative and ambiguous connotation of "I feel sick/How Disgusting" cannot be ignored, the more positive events I detailed above also cannot be ignored. Yea they fucked up. But the movie ends on the possibility of a brighter future. Otherwise you are being WAYYY too critical of a damaged 14 year old girl.

It is certainly valid to be against her and the LAS pairing and you are very welcome to do so. But it also valid to be optimistic towards it and hope for a better future between the two of them. At the root they were bad for each other because of their Barriers, lack of communication, and their own personal traumas. They immaturely seeked each other out for SELFISH comfort and support. This is why their relationship had a falling out , but in instrumentality they learn NOT TO do what they did beforehand.

Life isn't all about you ,stop pushing people away and being selfish, you need other people. Anywhere can be paradise with the will to live , love yourself( yeah you all saw the movie ).

so upon returning, she sees Shinji has gone mad and strangling her resulting in her caressing him. For the first time she's not thinking about comforting herself, but instead comforting the very person she seeked it from. It's very unexpected, especially from her, but she still does. Shinji of course snaps back to reality and cries over guilt, confusion, and relief it's all over. He learns the same message so what I like to think from the fact that he is standing up in the movie poster, is that he is accepting to be more 'up to it'. They already had their worst so now it can only improve ( added by the poster imo ) And given the show ends on hope, I would not consider it a stretch to want to see damaged teenagers learn from their mistakes and provide the support from each other that they've wanted. If there is one thing these two need, it's hope and the will to TRY if they really want a shot of happiness. Whether with each other or as individuals.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:47 am

View Original PostLt Light Ark#874521 wrote:Did she had a choice? Let's just watch it again, so okay, she did save the world, Shinji and Ayanami did too, regarding kindness,
And the rest of the time was spent killing her, trying to kill her again, and masturbating over her comatose body. But hey, he's usually polite, so obviously Asuka's obligated to give him self esteem! Asuka isn't obligated to support Shinji emotionally, and yet, she did, despite Shinji grabbing her neck.



Cept we're told, "all life" can come back, so Asuka wouldn't be alone. Drop the gymnastics already. Asuka was pressured into being a child soilder and was constantly encouraged to kill herself by her mother and is still kind enough to give a would-be-killer emotional support. That's a good person.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:50 am

View Original PostNoAltRealities wrote:.

There's no way to know how comfortable the two are from the image you're referencing, otherwise, well said.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:44 am

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:Cept we're told, "all life" can come back, so Asuka wouldn't be alone. Drop the gymnastics already. Asuka was pressured into being a child soilder and was constantly encouraged to kill herself by her mother and is still kind enough to give a would-be-killer emotional support. That's a good person.


No, no, instead you drop the gymnatics mister, she could at least be polite too (we know she can), did I said giving self esteem? No.

Don't place words in my mouth like that, and I did not get what you meant, are you arguing that Asuka was way more damaged so Shinji needed to 'man the fuck up'?

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Postby NoAltRealities » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:26 am

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:There's no way to know how comfortable the two are from the image you're referencing, otherwise, well said.



True but at the very least no extreme tension visible any ways :D
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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:05 pm

View Original PostLt Light Ark wrote:No, no, instead you drop the gymnatics mister, she could at least be polite too (we know she can), did I said giving self esteem? No.

Asuka isn't obligated to be polite. Shinji is obligated not to kill other people though.
Don't place words in my mouth like that, and I did not get what you meant, are you arguing that Asuka was way more damaged so Shinji needed to 'man the fuck up'?

Asuka's mom was constantly telling her to kill herself, so yeah, I'd say Asuka was more damaged. But again, given it was Shinji who choked Asuka on multiple occasions and condemned her to death, I'm not sure why Asuka is coming off to you as bearing greater responsibility with whatever issues they have.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:41 am

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:Asuka isn't obligated to be polite. Shinji is obligated not to kill other people though.


Some people would argue against that, but for me you have a point but forgot something.

Shinji isn't obligated to be her hero either, less accept her belittling him, also less being a sack to ger to throw her problems in.

Asuka's mom was constantly telling her to kill herself, so yeah, I'd say Asuka was more damaged. But again, given it was Shinji who choked Asuka on multiple occasions and condemned her to death, I'm not sure why Asuka is coming off to you as bearing greater responsibility with whatever issues they have.


That was her telling to a doll, also neither her own mom wanted her to die, but whatever, Kyoko wasn't mentally stable in that time (neither she was a good mom either)

Oh? More damaged? Maybe Shinji was well groomed by whoever he lived until Gendo called him to play with the Eva, right? If he was I think that maybe he is a nutjob for becoming mad even after living with such good caretakers.

TV tropes even highlights that, the way that Shinji behaved tells something about whoever took care of him for too much time, look, Asuka wanted people to be with her, Shinji preferred that people stayed away of him (with the contradictory annoying factor of wanting people to be close of him, because Anno tries to point that people will always to want to be close of others).

That says something about wheover took care of him, what is better? Live with people that makes you akin to Shinji or to be alone?

No, she has not greater responsibility, but throwing her issues over Shinji irks me like hell, even worse when people doesn't think that was anyway wrong.

Also neither Shinji had greater responsibility (maybe before EoE, still I don't know why the hell Anno have done that scene.)

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:27 pm

View Original PostLt Light Ark wrote:
Shinji isn't obligated to be her hero either, less accept her belittling him
What a deflection. Maybe If I repeat what I said, you'll try to address it:
Shinji is obligated not to kill other people though.


Furthermore, you are perfectly entitled to verbally "belittle" whoever the hell you want.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:40 pm

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:What a deflection. Maybe If I repeat what I said, you'll try to address it:


Furthermore, you are perfectly entitled to verbally "belittle" whoever the hell you want.


I do ask myself if Shinji was even aware that any wish of him (like 'everyone can die') could become reality.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:25 pm

I think that's a fair question, given the extremely deteriorated emotional and mental state that he was in at the time.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:00 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:I think that's a fair question, given the extremely deteriorated emotional and mental state that he was in at the time.

The choice seemed an intentional one which was a direct response to Asuka not willing to help him emotionally. To have it be accedental would just weaken the weight of the scene and isn't supported anywhere. I'm aware he's emotionally traumatized, I'm only discarding that here since Light Ark is framing this discussion so that we don't consider circumstances.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:34 am

It's not accidental: his desires and his feelings were 100% true in that moment. The question is whether or not he knew that his feelings in that moment would have actual consequences.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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