C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby jcmoorehead » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:08 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:So Asuka never even liked him in the first place, huh? Should've thought as much.


Well no, that's just one persons interpretation, granted she is Asuka's VA but it's hardly conclusive proof that Asuka didn't like Shinji at all. Anno is someone who has gone on record as saying there are many interpretations and there is evidence within the series itself that Asuka did/does like Shinji. If she didn't why would she want him to hold her? Why would she get jealous at him and Rei talking? Why would she have visited him after Leliel?

I'm not saying all of these are full blown examples of her loving him, but to say she never liked him at all seems a bit unfair.

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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:59 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:So Asuka never even liked him in the first place, huh? Should've thought as much.

The correct way to respond to what Kendrix said is to track down the original statement before basing any conclusions upon it. As is, you seem to be just lazily going belly-up for your preexisting bias.

(EDIT: Sorry, that really came out poorly, didn't it? It's a few days after the fact now, so I'll apologize to C.T. via PM.)
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:36 am

^
:asuka_stare:

...Anyway, TV Tropes would refer to Miyamura's statement as Word of Saint Paul: it doesn't hold the weight of, say Anno's statements (Word of God), but unless directly contradicted, might as well be canon, and is worth strong consideration.

Sometimes it does supersede Word of God, as well. Ridley Scott was adamant that Decker in Blade Runner was a replicant, but seems to have flipped on that for the sale of sequels. Harrison Ford always maintained Decker was human, and seems to have won that debate.

Of course, it's all assumptive: at the end of the day, they leave so much unfinished and ambiguous that there's a wide range of interpretations. Perhaps the best tragedy of the show is that, when faced with the end of the world, instead of opening up and being honest and liberated (like you tend to see in such fiction), they become more insular and isolated.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby TheCarkolum » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:42 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:Sexual tension can be one-sided, and wanting to be acknowledged sexually certainly falls under that umbrella. From Asuka's POV, not being a fully-grown woman might have been the only thing holding Kaji back from accepting her romance, and so she wanted to prove to him she was ready for sexual things. Tension.


No it's not. That's not sexual tension. Even if you fully accept the one-sided meaning of the word, that situation doesn't fall into the "sexual tension" category. First of all, there must be tension, and it's not the case. If someone tells you "Hey, I wanna ride you all night long. Look at me how sexy I am" the sexual tension is non-existent. She just wanna bang Kanji, plain simple, because she treats herself as (sexually) mature and being with a full grown man makes you look mature, like Asuka wants (that doesn't mean Kaji is not sexually attractive to her). So where's the sexual tension? I didn't see it anywhere.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:17 am

As a female mammal, the sexual tension is most likely in her clitoris.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Sachi » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:25 am

I'm not sure how you don't see tension in the situation. Asuka is desperately seeking sexual attention, to the point where she lashes out emotionally. She's flirting with him constantly, while he ignores her. This riles her up, forcing her to make more forward advances toward him. The tension is that she sexually desires him, but is denied that despite her best attempts. It doesn't get much more clear cut than that.

EDIT:
View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:Please, don't twist my words. Of course the idea of needing a boyfriend to be a healthy person is toxic! When did I say otherwise? And (that's the funny part) I didn't use the word "boyfriend"! I already stated it. The words "boyfriend" and "girlfriend" (in an usual way) don't apply in the NGE universe (maybe with the Misato-Kaji exception).

When I said that Asuka needs so and so, I didn't mean as a prescription but a diagnosis, a description of what Asuka is looking for. And, duh! Of course it's a toxic idea, because Asuka is like that. Asuka has problems man. So please stop misunderstanding my words, it's annoying as hell....

Instead of assuming the worst in people and getting annoyed that they're twisting your words, maybe consider that they simply and honestly misunderstood you. There's no need for this sort of confrontational attitude that permeates many of your posts. It's more effective to play ball and reiterate your points than to go around telling people to stop misunderstanding you.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby TheCarkolum » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:47 am

OK, so are you saying that sexual tension comes from "not consumed sex"? Well, idk if that's the precise meaning. Here in Spain, sexual tension means "inability to express and therefore consummate sexual desires due to awkwardness or whatever". That creates the tension. If the tension comes from saying "NO, you can't fuck me" it is not tension, it's just frustration. But the sexual tension I was referring to is this (according to Wikipedia):

Sexual tension often occurs between individuals when the relationship is close and often flirtatious, yet the two people involved adamantly deny their feelings for each other to themselves, and to others.[1] Meanwhile, it can be extremely obvious to other friends/co-workers that such tension is present between the two individuals. It can be said that, often when people give in to sexual tension, the relationship can become complicated and awkward if no new relationship level is established, as the relationship that existed before the sex is, in a way, no longer valid.

Sexual tension is a common feature of plot and characterization in works of fiction. This longing is often suggested by incidents of intimacy; for instance, when two people or characters are alone and in close proximity (or actually touching), yet desire is never explicitly expressed. Another common theme is for characters to develop an interest in one another over the course of the plot, and if this is expertly done, the audience can become aware of the growing attraction.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Sachi » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:09 am

This is getting awfully semantic. Sexual frustration is a more general term for not being able to express oneself sexually, independent of other involved parties. Sexual tension comes directly from the interaction between two people, wherein at least one wants it but can't have it. Tension involves two, whereas frustration is more vague, and doesn't require another party. Tension falls under the umbrella of frustration, while being a much more pointed term.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:36 pm

It's not really semantics, though, because they mean two fundamentally different things, and are portrayed in very different manners. Sexual tension tends to be a constructive element (not always, but usually), the sort of thing that drives people closer together. Sexual frustration is an inability to display one's sexual desires in a constructive or meaningful way. Tension tends to be less because of a lack of ability on the part of the individual, but the pressures surrounding the couple: they know what they want, and they know how to get it, but prevent themselves from doing so for various external reasons. Frustration is internal, and internally motivated.

It is safer to say that Asuka and Shinji are the latter, as their problems are not a couple's issue, but two separate sets of individual problems with unique factors motivating those frustrations, which are exacerbated by each other's presence. Sexual tension requires something of a two-way street: both subjects feel clear sexual desire for each other, but are unable to consummate, and that's the key. Both desire each other.

It's never made clear if Shinji and Asuka desire each other, as their primary conflict is in their inability to connect with anyone. They are frustrated by their inability to express themselves, to connect, and often actively and knowingly sabotage any hints of relationship development with everyone. They clearly have sexual thoughts and desires, but they are not focused on each other, and are no different than any other set of teenage hormonal spikes.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby TheCarkolum » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:01 pm

Wow wow wow. So much it's going on right now. We all are mixing concepts and semantics. We have: frustration, sexual frustration, tension, sexual tension... and every one of us are giving them a different meaning. Why did I mention the word frustration? :sniffle: :sniffle: :sniffle:

I didn't say that Asuka was sexually frustrated. I was talking about a punctual situation. You are told: I don't wanna have sex with you! You get frustrated. That's a simple feeling.

Somebody sexually frustrated is someone who can't get laid as much as he/she wants over the years so yeah, it's more internalized.

Tension. What is social tension? It's not just getting kicked out or something. It has to do with nervousness. Here's one reference if you allow me:

Thayer, Robert E. (1996). The Origin of Everyday Moods: Managing Energy, Tension and Stress. New York, NY: Oxford University Press.

Sexual tension. Well, it has to do with the "nervousness" to express the inability to manifest a sexual desire. At least for me I think that's the most accurate meaning to go for. If you don't agree with that meaning it's fine.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:14 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:The correct way to respond to what Kendrix said is to track down the original statement before basing any conclusions upon it. As is, you seem to be just lazily going belly-up for your preexisting bias.

Preexisting bias? The one about my negativity towards Asuka?

I've come the Tumblr post about the interview where Miyamura replied with a "no" on wether or not Asuka actually likes Shinji. And seeing as she is her voice actress, she seems to know Asuka inside and out. If that's so, then that must mean that her answer confirms it. Plus, Asuka's negative attitude towards Shinji seems to further prove that.

By the way, I've sent you a message some time ago concerning another topic thread which I believe was about a month back, the one where you think I might be coming off as a little crazy? Wasn't sure if you saw it yet seeing as I haven't heard back from you yet. Just a little FYI.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:39 pm

TheCarkolum: Hey, easy there: no one is saying you said this or that (at least, I'm not). I've observed something in the thread I felt needed to be pointed out, so take it or leave it. I don't think you're wrong in your assessment of Asuka, but there is a term 'sexual frustration' and a term 'sexual tension' that tend to mean two different things. In other words, they are preexisting phrases describing established conditions, and have been used as tools in fiction for a while. Sexual tension, for instance, has long been used as an element of romantic story arcs because while it is, at the root, a cause of frustration (usually for us, the viewer), the effect is no destructive but tantalizing. It is a tension that builds anticipation (because remember: not all stress and tension are bad things). Sexual frustration tends to be a something portrayed in a more negative light (for obvious reasons), and refers to sexual difficulties within the individual, not the couple.

If you're referring to separate frustrations from that, but still overlapping with those problems, I can see where you're going.

C.T.1290: It's a good observation, and being that she's the voice actress, her word counts for a lot. I'd still call it 'Word of Saint Paul,' though: it seems that Anno may have different opinions on Asuka, or in the very least is unwilling to comment on them and leave them more ambiguous.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby xanderkh » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:01 pm

^
It's pretty much been established that there really isn't a fully grounded opinion about Shinji and Asuka's relationship, even amongst the staff themselves. Then again, Miyamura has also been rumored to carry a copy of the RE-TAKE doujinshi with her, which is a heavily based story on Asuka and Shinji's relationship.

Plus, does the interview state in what context Asuka doesn't like about Shinji? Did she not like him at first, but does Asuka have the capacity to understand Shinji after EoE? Or does Asuka not like Shinji, Period? There's a lot to go on with just a simple answer without knowing the full context of the answer.

And even then, there are still hints during the show that both of them want to make a move of some sort. They just don't know how to make the first step or how to communicate what they want without feeling vulnerable.
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Re: What do you think Asuka had learned during​ Instrumentality?

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Postby Chuckman » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:18 pm

Asuka learned to be herself.

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Re: What do you think Asuka had learned during​ Instrumentality?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:28 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Asuka learned to be herself.

Which part of herself are we referring to?
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Re: What do you think Asuka had learned during​ Instrumentality?

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Postby TheCarkolum » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:01 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Make more sense than what?


I claim that the images we see are in Shinji's head because somebody is showing them to him, and that's make more sense than the images happening somewhere somehow outside Shinji.
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Re: What do you think Asuka had learned during​ Instrumentality?

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Postby Chuckman » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:13 pm

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:I claim that the images we see are in Shinji's head because somebody is showing them to him, and that's make more sense than the images happening somewhere somehow outside Shinji.


Why can't they be in Asuka's head?

C.T.1290 wrote:Which part of herself are we referring to?


All of it.

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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby Tumbling Down » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:34 pm

Because she reminded him why he chose to abort Instrumentality.

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:This is very much up for debate, though. She already addressed him whacking off to her earlier in the film, so I'm inclined to believe that her final line focuses on something different. In my opinion, I think she's referencing the entire experience and fallout of 3rd Impact and the HIP.

I thought she was referring to Shinji and everything he's done. The fact that she goes right back to insulting him after extending kindness towards him is confirmation that Shinji's view of the women (and arguably people of any gender) in his life, as expressed on the train, was correct. (Whether or not Asuka's insult was justified is besides the point.) If Shinji doesn't finish the job after the ending card appears on-screen, then he's truly accepted humanity/existence, warts and all.

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Re: What do you think Asuka had learned during​ Instrumentality?

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Postby Reichu » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:33 am

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:I claim that the images we see are in Shinji's head because somebody is showing them to him, and that's make more sense than the images happening somewhere somehow outside Shinji.

Well, yes, anything you perceive is de facto "in your head", otherwise you wouldn't be perceiving it. But generally when we say in English that something is "in one's head", this implies that it exists nowhere else -- short for the phrase "all in one's head". ("Oh, you're not actually sick, it's just in your head.") So it's important to clarify that, yes, these memories are coming from outside Shinji, because the very real misconception exists that he's just imagining it all.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:15 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:^
It's pretty much been established that there really isn't a fully grounded opinion about Shinji and Asuka's relationship, even amongst the staff themselves. Then again, Miyamura has also been rumored to carry a copy of the RE-TAKE doujinshi with her, which is a heavily based story on Asuka and Shinji's relationship.

This is rather surprising. Asuka's voice actress, the person who seems to know Asuka real well for having her step into her shoes, saying that she doesn't like Shinji. And yet, she is rumored to have had a Doujinshi about Shinji and Asuka(which may or may not have Asuka be a little out of character).
jcmoorehead wrote:Well no, that's just one persons interpretation, granted she is Asuka's VA but it's hardly conclusive proof that Asuka didn't like Shinji at all. Anno is someone who has gone on record as saying there are many interpretations and there is evidence within the series itself that Asuka did/does like Shinji. If she didn't why would she want him to hold her? Why would she get jealous at him and Rei talking? Why would she have visited him after Leliel?

I'm not saying all of these are full blown examples of her loving him, but to say she never liked him at all seems a bit unfair.

How would it be unfair to assume that Asuka doesn't like Shinji and take that as the truth?
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