C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:40 am

STAFF EDIT: in order to keep things tidy, multiple threads started by C.T.1290 that more or less covered the same ground have now been consolidated into this one location.

You know, after watching the original series, as well as the rebuild films, there has been something about Asuka that has been bothering me; And that's her attitude problem.

We all know that she is cocky, arrogant, and selfish. Caring very little about other people (and much less herself). And since that (to me) she is a very hard person to understand and comprehend, it made me wonder if she is truly the type of character deserving of any sympathy in any form.

I already know of her back story ( where her mother went crazy, mistook the doll for Asuka, and eventually commit suicide, leaving her behind). But despite that and for what happened to her in the series, I'm still having a bit of a hard time feeling sorry for her. ( I think something might be wrong with me (:| )

And in Rebuild, well, up to 3.0, she's still the same as ever, not as likable, and her attitude is worse than ever, evidently more so towards Shinji ( who has always been her punching bag).

So anyways, is Asuka the type of character who is truly worth having any sympathy, as much as Shinji does, if not more so?

I just wish there could have been more positive traits about her. It's just too bad that it's all been overshadowed by her more negative traits.

Sorry if this seems like some typical character bashing. This is something I felt I had to get off my chest. Asuka really is a complicated character, and a bit of a frustrating one, too.
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Re: Is Asuka really deserving of sympathy?

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Postby peripateia » Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:25 am

I was rewatching episode 25 the other day and the inner dialogues between Misato, Asuka, Rei and Shinji enforced just how similar they all were- afraid of communicating with the outside world, afraid of failing, unable to reunite with their mother, resentful of their father.

None of them believe they deserve to be happy, none of them have any real say in how to live their lives. "I pilot eva because ...that's all I can do," Shinji reflects to the audience. Asuka is the same, no matter what she says to Shinji.

And yet I would say that despite their obvious flaws, each person in NGE deserves to be loved, because at the heart of it, it's miscommunication and a fear of being hurt that keep them from becoming all that they can become.

If we look past Asuka's aggressive attitude, Gendo's aloofness, Ritsuko's vacant stare, Misato's forced cheerfulness, and, yes, Shinji's cowardice, we find lonely souls seeking to be complete in a harsh world.

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Re: Is Asuka really deserving of sympathy?

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:42 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:We all know that she is cocky, arrogant, and selfish. Caring very little about other people (and much less herself). And since that (to me) she is a very hard person to understand and comprehend, it made me wonder if she is truly the type of character deserving of any sympathy in any form.


So, flawed people don't deserve sympathy when terrible things happen to them? That's pretty harsh.

And in Rebuild, well, up to 3.0, she's still the same as ever, not as likable, and her attitude is worse than ever, evidently more so towards Shinji ( who has always been her punching bag).


Part of the problem here is that you're treating Soryu and Shikinami as though they're the same person, when that's not the case. They have different names for a reason.

So anyways, is Asuka the type of character who is truly worth having any sympathy, as much as Shinji does, if not more so?


I find the question somewhat ridiculous given that she's a 13-year-old child with some of the worst formative memories imaginable. She has a bad attitude, so she somehow deserves what she went through with her mother? She deserves to be mindraped by Ariel? She deserves to be completely ignored by Nerv when she breaks down as a result? She deserves to be dismembered by the MPEs? She's a teenager with a bad attitude, not Hitler. Of course she deserves sympathy. That doesn't mean she shouldn't be held accountable for her actions, but get some perspective man.

Sorry if this seems like some typical character bashing.


Yup, that's exactly what it is. And to what end?
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Is Asuka really deserving of sympathy?

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Postby Reichu » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:58 am

You can consider this question from two perspectives, in universe and out of universe.

In, most certainly. Asuka is still quite young. While she isn't a nice person by any means, she hasn't done anything beyond forgiveness, either. The biggest problem here is Asuka's own pride. If anyone gave her sympathy, she would violently reject it. She hasn't quite reached the point where she can regularly accept being vulnerable. Though, she did let this side of herself show when she was reunited with Kyoko, so there's probably hope.

Out of universe: a fictional character is worthy of whatever their audience wishes to bestow upon them. So those who can identify with her, and even some who cannot, will deem her worthy of being given sympathy. Though since Asuka's not exactly in a position to accept anything from fans, perhaps this is better conceptualized as people empathizing with her.

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Re: Is Asuka really deserving of sympathy?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:42 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:And since that (to me) she is a very hard person to understand and comprehend, it made me wonder if she is truly the type of character deserving of any sympathy in any form.
By contrast, she (Asuka Sohryu Miyamura, to be precise, if you forgive the notation) was the one who reminded me painfully of my younger self, in a "there but for the grace of God" sort of a way; and so was the character that got all my sympathy. Related

View Original PostReichu wrote:If anyone gave her sympathy, she would violently reject it.
What was the line from episode 22 -- something like "Things must have hit rock bottom if I'm getting sympathy from [Shinji]", at least in the version I'm most familiar with.
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Re: Is Asuka really deserving of sympathy?

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Postby Chuckman » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:08 pm

Asuka doesn't need your sympathy. She is a Warrior Poet Queen and has joined the fraternity of those who have crossed the Abyss and survived. You owe her obsequience, not pity.

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Re: Is Asuka really deserving of sympathy?

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Postby xanderkh » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:23 pm

^
Well, she may not want it, but empathy is definitely something she needs, cause the thing of being a "Queen"? The Highest peak, is also the loneliest. :P

True strength is not achieved by never falling, but admitting we need help rising to those we love and love us. :)

Luckily, she is in good company, with Shinji, the Reborn Fallen King, Rei, the Goddess Priest, and Misato, the Amazonian Warrior by her side, so she won't be alone. :)
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
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Golbz:.............
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Re: Is Asuka really deserving of sympathy?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:04 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:She is a Warrior Poet Queen and has joined the fraternity of those who have crossed the Abyss and survived. You owe her obsequience, not pity.
That's after EoE, though.
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Re: Is Asuka really deserving of sympathy?

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Postby The Cruel » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:50 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Asuka doesn't need your sympathy. She is a Warrior Poet Queen and has joined the fraternity of those who have crossed the Abyss and survived. You owe her obsequience, not pity.


Deference is definitely the highest term that comes in mind if it's about Asuka. She has potential to do great things either its being the born example of how modern warfare has to work with unconventional means, or anithing else that's appealing for her. If she just could let go what haunts her and makes her mad, then she would 've a fulfilled life. She has to accept that doing things alone doesn't make her stronger. No matter which reputation, which training, or how tough she can be, she is just human. She really needs to not being hard to herself and appreciate who and what she has beyond Eva.
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Re: Is Asuka really deserving of sympathy?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:53 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:So, flawed people don't deserve sympathy when terrible things happen to them? That's pretty harsh. quote]

Yup, that's exactly what it is. And to what end?

Yeah, I guess it seems that way. (Shame)
Well, I think that despite them being two different characters, they still share some similarities, their similar traits. So I kinda tend to, um, treat them as if they were the same person.
When I watched the series ( I believe for the first time), I kinda felt that because of her rotten attitude, she kinda had it coming to her, more or less. Sorry if my mindset comes off as incredibly harsh, but there are times where I have this firm belief that those who do wrong should be punished to some degree, at least that's how karma works. And I think that with me being a mildly autistic person, I tend to see things in black and white, that's kind of how I am. So again, sorry if my views seems really harsh. That's just how I feel about a character like Asuka, and I think that I'm not the only one who feels that way towards her. Not that I really hate her, I just think she could use some attitude adjustments.
I guess my way of venting, just needed to get something off my chest. And I also would like to see some other opinions when it comes to Asuka, hopefully to clear up some confusion I have with myself concerning a character like her.

I also read some of your posts about Asuka, back when I was browsing the web before I decided to join this forum. You seem to have some pretty good knowledge about her, and know her quite well. What's your secret?
Sorry if this post seems like a mess. This is my first time replying to multiple quotes. Not real sure how that works.
Last edited by C.T.1290 on Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:11 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Is Asuka really deserving of sympathy?

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Postby xanderkh » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:55 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote: What's your secret?


Years of practice. :) We've all had plenty of time to think and sort our own answers of the series, both it's symbolisms and subtleties. :)
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Re: Is Asuka really deserving of sympathy?

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:05 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:Well, I think that despite them being two different characters, they still share some similarities, their similar traits. So I kinda tend to, um, treat them as if they were the same person.


I understand the impulse, but, well, they aren't the same person! So don't do that. :D

When I watched the series ( I believe for the first time), I kinda felt that because of her rotten attitude, she kinda had it coming to her, more or less.


A rotten attitude does not justify torture and mutilation. It just doesn't; the two aren't proportional at all.

I also read some of your posts about Asuka, back when I was browsing the web before I decided to join this forum. You seem to have some pretty good knowledge about her, and know her quite well. What's your secret?


Watch the show, talk to others about it, think about everything that's in it . . . there's really no trick to it beyond that. NGE is a show that rewards close scrutiny, so watching it a bunch of times and paying attention to what's being said (and finding out what to pay attention to by talking to others) is the key to understanding it.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Is Asuka even capable of​ feeling remorse?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:04 am

Throughout​ the series, we've never seen Asuka actually feeling or even saying sorry for the way she acted and treated other people, such as Shinji.
And I bet that even after Instrumentality, (just recently finished End of Evangelion for the first time.) She still hasn't changed much. Maybe a bit slightly, but probably not enough to make a full improvement. I could be wrong though.
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Re: Is Asuka even capable of​ feeling remorse?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:32 am

As a child, you see her accepting blame for something that's not in any way her fault:

Episode 25 wrote:CHILD Asuka:
Don't, Mom! Don't quit being my mom!
I'll be a good girl, so you'll like me!
So, don't quit being my mom!
So, look at me!
Stop, Mom!
Don't kill me!

The bolded part carried the implication, "Mama must hate me because I'm 'bad', so I have to be 'good' to get her to love me again". Typical kid logic.

Developmentally, Asuka seems to have started out quite normal. It's the defense mechanisms she developed in response to the trauma of Kyoko's mental illness and eventual suicide that produced her current calloused shell. She wants to be strong and independent to a fault, which results in instinctively burying any perceived vulnerability. Conceding that you're wrong or sorry about anything means showing a little weakness, so of course that's a no-no for her.

I don't think that Asuka returned to individuality exhibiting any real improvement either, but it would also be unrealistic to expect this, I think. Unlike Shinji, who has been allowed to maintain self-awareness during the process of Instrumentality, Asuka was given no such privilege and would have been subsumed into the hivemind. It will take time for her to process everything that's happened. Even a well-adjusted adult would need a proper buffer zone to recover from such an intense and otherworldly experience.

We'll never know what happens to the characters after "Fin" appears. Their future depends on the individual viewers' imaginations, because that is the only place their future can exist. So if you think Asuka becomes a better person, then she will.

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Re: Is Asuka even capable of​ feeling remorse?

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Postby Chuckman » Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:57 am

She can't be reasoned with, or bargained with. She doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear.

Actually her entire life is remorse. She knows she committed a crime but doesn't know what it is and spends her entire life punishing herself for it.

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Re: Is Asuka even capable of​ feeling remorse?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:45 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:She can't be reasoned with, or bargained with. She doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear.

Actually her entire life is remorse. She knows she committed a crime but doesn't know what it is and spends her entire life punishing herself for it.

So her actions are eating her up from the inside. Am I right?

Reichu wrote:Conceding that you're wrong or sorry about anything means showing a little weakness, so of course that's a no-no for her.


So she never feels sorry then? Nor know the meaning of it?

I don't think that Asuka returned to individuality exhibiting any real improvement either, but it would also be unrealistic to expect this, I think.


Well, that's a bit disappointing. :nono:

We'll never know what happens to the characters after "Fin" appears. Their future depends on the individual viewers' imaginations, because that is the only place their future can exist. So if you think Asuka becomes a better person, then she will.


Hence the fanfics we see before us.
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Re: Is Asuka even capable of​ feeling remorse?

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Postby silvermoonlight » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:48 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:Throughout​ the series, we've never seen Asuka actually feeling or even saying sorry for the way she acted and treated other people, such as Shinji.


I think she is capable of feeling remorse and regret yes but I think her history of abuse and neglect makes it difficult for her as she has not had therapy and can't focus her emotions correctly and does not know how to channel her anger which is very misdirected. I do think as she got older she would start to feel to feel real deep regret over everything she did and how she treated people and would want to right her wrongs.
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Re: Is Asuka even capable of​ feeling remorse?

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:54 pm

She gets some therapy in Bagheera's story, Ghosts (which I just linked in the other EoE thread).
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Re: Is Asuka even capable of​ feeling remorse?

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:02 pm

It's sort of a trick question: I think most kids, at the age of 13, are only just beginning to figure out what things like remorse are, and they're still a ways off from properly managing such emotions. It's one reason so many fanfics (mine included) tend to age up the characters -- when they're older we can give them meaningful therapy, have them engage in self-reflection, have them really grok the notion of having empathy for other human beings, etc. It's hard to do that with early teenagers, let alone basket cases like Shinji and Asuka.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Is Asuka even capable of​ feeling remorse?

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Postby silvermoonlight » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:10 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It's sort of a trick question: I think most kids, at the age of 13, are only just beginning to figure out what things like remorse are, and they're still a ways off from properly managing such emotions. It's one reason so many fanfics (mine included) tend to age up the characters -- when they're older we can give them meaningful therapy, have them engage in self-reflection, have them really grok the notion of having empathy for other human beings, etc. It's hard to do that with early teenagers, let alone basket cases like Shinji and Asuka.


Not gonna disagree with that at all as I pushed up the ages in my fanfic purely for the reasons you mentioned, plus I liked the idea of a much older Asuka confronting some of her teenage wrongs and getting therapy and some form of closure.

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:She gets some therapy in Bagheera's story, Ghosts (which I just linked in the other EoE thread).


Thanks for the recommendation I'll look in to reading that ^_^
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