Nerv Nevada, S2 Engine Installation, Unit-04 Sabotaged?

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Nerv Nevada, S2 Engine Installation, Unit-04 Sabotaged?

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Postby Sachi » Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:15 pm

We're not really given a whole lot of information regarding the accident at Nerv's 2nd Branch in Nevada, other than that they were installing the experimental S2 Engine derived from Shamshel, and as a result everything within a radius of Nerv 02 vanished into what is described as another Sea of Dirac, similar to what Leliel utilized. No answers why, but sabotage is named as one of many possibilities.

Rebuild seems to more heavily emphasize the idea of sabotage, as the cold war between Gendo and Seele is a major aspect of the plot.

Either continuity, question is who sabotaged it and why? Was Gendo taking out Seele's Evangelions? Or was Seele trying to keep the S2 Engine for their mass production series? Could Kaji have been involved?

I'm investigating this topic for a potential fan fic idea.
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Re: Nerv Nevada, S2 Engine Installation, Sabotage?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:55 pm

I think the video game Secret of Evangelion gets into this. I've never looked into it myself, though.

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Re: Nerv Nevada, S2 Engine Installation, Sabotage?

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Postby Sachi » Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:28 pm

My other question is if there was a designated pilot for Unit-04 during the test. The only information we're given is that the installation of the S2 was what was scheduled, but nothing is said about an activation test. However, I would assume things didn't go wrong until they tried activating the engine, which I would also assume involved an activation test of the Eva, and therefore a pilot. Though, it is possible the accident happened as soon as the S2 was plugged in, with no activation necessary.

For the purposes of my fic, there's going to be a pilot.
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Re: Nerv Nevada, S2 Engine Installation, Sabotage?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:37 pm

Asuka being classified Second Children in Germany establishes a precedent for a hypothetical American Eva-04 pilot to receive a designation as well. However, this clearly did not happen. I would assume that there was no pilot, and only the S2 was being tested.

I actually wonder if they put S2 testing ahead of things like putting a soul into the Eva, and that's precisely where things went wrong. That is, an ATF is a necessary component for safely drawing energy from the Dirac Sea.

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Re: Nerv Nevada, S2 Engine Installation, Sabotage?

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Postby Sachi » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:32 pm

That's a good point. Toji was designated the 4th Children after the accident and after they decided to send Unit-03 to Japan. You're right; there was mostly likely not a pilot. Interesting. I'll have to consider this for my fic.

With that in mind, then most certainly the S2 Engine interacted with the Eva as soon as they were plugged in with each other.

We do know that there's some sort of connection between the S2 and the Sea of Dirac; perhaps that is where the S2 derives its energy from. Either through sabotage or imperfection of the technology, I suspect the engine malfunctioned and reversed the flow, sending energy back into the Sea instead of pulling from it. Hm...
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Re: Nerv Nevada, S2 Engine Installation, Sabotage?

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Postby Reichu » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:49 am

Far as a pilot goes, it's a fic so you really can do whatever you want. Gives you a chance to flex your creativity and see how one could possibly be justified outside of the Marduk Institute's jurisdiction. Though you would still need to determine why a pilot would be required for an S2 engine start-up in the first place. Additionally, throwing in a new pilot character may qualify as an Eva fic cliche, so it might actually be more interesting to NOT have one.

I think the link between the S2 Engine/organ and the Dirac Sea is an incredibly concrete one. For obvious reasons, I've already done a lot of work on the matter for my own fic; I'd love to share my ideas if you want to help tackle some of the remaining gaps. :tongue:

I don't necessarily think that the organ would start working the moment it's "plugged in". There are a couple of things to consider here.

Eva-01 -- an already ensouled and fully functional Eva -- was able to take a shortcut by assimilating the flesh for one and reconstituting it inside her core, but even this required unlocking some of her higher-tier powers, evidenced by her jettisoning the pylons. How would the 2nd Branch get Shamshel's flesh to believe it's actually part of Eva-04 without the advantage of the Eva willfully absorbing it? Maybe there are innate physiological processes that can be tapped into -- there's gobbledygook in episode 22 that suggests that the Evas' cellular biology can be manipulated by Nerv -- but this would require time and care.

Once it's successfully integrated, how do you get it to turn back on? Does it just happen on its own? I suppose if Eva-04 is already functionally "alive", then maybe it would. But, if the intent is to conduct a controlled experiment -- a good idea when dealing with such dangerous technology -- then the 2nd Branch would want to be able to carefully initiate the organ themselves... Bring it online via a precise sequence, along the lines of, say, an engine or a reactor.

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Re: Nerv Nevada, S2 Engine Installation, Sabotage?

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Postby Sachi » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:37 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Far as a pilot goes, it's a fic so you really can do whatever you want. Gives you a chance to flex your creativity and see how one could possibly be justified outside of the Marduk Institute's jurisdiction. Though you would still need to determine why a pilot would be required for an S2 engine start-up in the first place. Additionally, throwing in a new pilot character may qualify as an Eva fic cliche, so it might actually be more interesting to NOT have one.

I was thinking about it, and I would not be surprised at all for the Americans to want to ignore the Marduk Institute in favor of putting forth their own chosen candidate. It would be political, as the Americans are trying to regain their position of power in the world, and they would not take kindly to the UN deciding things for them. They would instead groom their own candidate beforehand, albeit an unofficial one.

I know the OC Eva Pilot thing has been played out, but for the purposes of this fic, the kid would never have a real opportunity to pilot. It would be a lot of hype and build up for him, only for his dream to eventually collapse in on itself (in true American fashion).

Once it's successfully integrated, how do you get it to turn back on? Does it just happen on its own? I suppose if Eva-04 is already functionally "alive", then maybe it would. But, if the intent is to conduct a controlled experiment -- a good idea when dealing with such dangerous technology -- then the 2nd Branch would want to be able to carefully initiate the organ themselves... Bring it online via a precise sequence, along the lines of, say, an engine or a reactor.

I imagine some sort of tests were run on it while it was in Germany to determine that it functions on its own. Once integrated into the Eva and activated is when I assume things went wrong. Why though? Was it the interaction between it and the Eva that caused it, or something else?

This is why sabotage should be a strongly weighed possibility. Perhaps the engine worked just fine in Germany, but between then and the installation, somebody may have tampered with it, intentionally causing the accident that happens when it's turned on again.
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Re: Nerv Nevada, S2 Engine Installation, Sabotage?

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Postby Cybermat47 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:58 pm

This is shaping up to be an interesting fanfic. I'm looking forward to it.
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The fate of Unit-04

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:45 pm

While never seen on screen, Evangelion Unit-04 is somewhat significant to the story in that 1) it was the test run for an S2 Engine-equipped Unit that would eventually be perfected with the Mass Production Units, and 2) its ill fated test run basically result in the Bardiel incident. Still, I'm a bit fuzzy on a lot of the details surrounding said experiment.

For one, I see a lot of people refer to the event as being explicit sabotage by SEELE, but I don't recall where exactly the show specified that to be the case. From what I recall the show kept it ambiguous why the experiment failed. Did I miss something? And if I did, why would SEELE want to sabotage the experiment like that? I can see getting rid of it after the test, but it doesn't make much sense to not let something relevant to their plans go through at all.

Secondly, Ritsuko makes clear that the incident resulted in the facility being swallowed by a/the Sea of Dirac (gotta love Japanese and its lack of articles), but I kind of wonder how she knows this. If there were no survivors and nobody has been to the area, I don't see how they can possibly confirm that. Plus, if that's the case, I wonder why there was no attempt to recover the Unit since the Leliel battle seemed to imply they felt it was possible.

Finally, exactly what was lost in the accident? They clearly had enough material left from Shamshel to make the MP Evas, so they didn't use the actual thing, but the characters act like its a major setback, so it seems something of value was lost.

Forgive me if I'm asking stupid questions with obvious answers but somehow I've just missed these answers when watching the show.

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Re: The fate of Unit-04

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Postby Sachi » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:43 pm

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote:For one, I see a lot of people refer to the event as being explicit sabotage by SEELE, but I don't recall where exactly the show specified that to be the case. From what I recall the show kept it ambiguous why the experiment failed. Did I miss something? And if I did, why would SEELE want to sabotage the experiment like that? I can see getting rid of it after the test, but it doesn't make much sense to not let something relevant to their plans go through at all.

Never explicitly stated as Seele, but implicitly. There may be a few reasons for this. One reason might be that they wanted Unit-03/Bardiel sent to Japan to fuck with Gendo, who is steadily revealing himself as having a separate agenda from them. They're implied to have taken advantage of Matarael's arrival by orchestrating the Tokyo-03 blackout in order to reverse map Nerv, in preparation for the later invasion in EoE. This kills two birds with one stone for Seele, as it advances their schedule as well.

Secondly, Ritsuko makes clear that the incident resulted in the facility being swallowed by a/the Sea of Dirac (gotta love Japanese and its lack of articles), but I kind of wonder how she knows this. If there were no survivors and nobody has been to the area, I don't see how they can possibly confirm that. Plus, if that's the case, I wonder why there was no attempt to recover the Unit since the Leliel battle seemed to imply they felt it was possible.

I dont believe the Sea of Dirac remained open for longer than it needed to swallow the entire place up. Once closed, and the S2 engine that generated it lost, there's no re-opening it. The desert left behind is just empty.

Finally, exactly what was lost in the accident? They clearly had enough material left from Shamshel to make the MP Evas, so they didn't use the actual thing, but the characters act like its a major setback, so it seems something of value was lost.

It is an unexpected loss from the average Nerv employee's perspective. A necessary loss from Seele's perspective.
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Re: The fate of Unit-04

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:05 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:Never explicitly stated as Seele, but implicitly. There may be a few reasons for this. One reason might be that they wanted Unit-03/Bardiel sent to Japan to fuck with Gendo, who is steadily revealing himself as having a separate agenda from them. They're implied to have taken advantage of Matarael's arrival by orchestrating the Tokyo-03 blackout in order to reverse map Nerv, in preparation for the later invasion in EoE. This kills two birds with one stone for Seele, as it advances their schedule as well.


So you think they deliberately infected Unit-03 with Bardiel?

That aside it's certainly a logical answer, though it still seems odd to not even wait for the outcome of the test. The Wiki suggested it may be been a simple accident, but admittedly that's a far less interesting answer.

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Re: Nerv Nevada, S2 Engine Installation, Unit-04 Sabotaged?

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:48 pm

I know Bob called it a McGuffin but there was synchro data mentioned.

https://wiki.evageeks.org/FGC:Episode_17_Cut_014

Perhaps Seele was testing an early version of the Kaworu dummy plug and had it overload the organ for some convoluted reason?
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Re: The fate of Unit-04

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:28 pm

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote:So you think they deliberately infected Unit-03 with Bardiel?

I always presumed the thunderstorm during the transport was the moment of infection. (Why else have the storm at all.)
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Re: The fate of Unit-04

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:31 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:I always presumed the thunderstorm during the transport was the moment of infection. (Why else have the storm at all.)


Yeah, I got that much.

What I meant was his comment seemed to imply SEELE deliberately engineered the situation where it happened, of otherwise let it happen, which would stretch the credibility of the Dead Sea Scrolls by making them omniscient.

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Re: Nerv Nevada, S2 Engine Installation, Unit-04 Sabotaged?

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:28 pm

OIC. I've never really sorted out Seele's view of the angels in my mind. I mean, it's already not straightforward what with Kaworu...
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Re: Nerv Nevada, S2 Engine Installation, Unit-04 Sabotaged?

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Postby Sachi » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:28 pm

It's really hard to pinpoint the extent of Seele's awareness/anticipation/knowledge of the Angels. Gendo lies to them about Iruel (another Angel that was all too conveniently packaged and sent to Nerv) but Seele is rather incredulous about Gendo's lie, as if they know more about the situation than they're letting on. We know they have a planned agenda that requires they have knowledge of Angel identities (names, attributes and quantity), and more or less when to expect the Angels. It might not be unreasonable to extend that knowledge a bit to include a basic knowledge of Angel behavior. Just enough for them to have reasonably planned on getting Unit-03 infected by Bardiel (the Angel of hail) by flying it through the thunderstorm, as well as orchestrating the Tokyo-03 blackout for Matarael, and also planting Iruel in the shipment to be sent to Nerv.
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Re: Nerv Nevada, S2 Engine Installation, Unit-04 Sabotaged?

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Postby Reichu » Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:06 pm

I'm not especially thrilled with the idea of Seele being Villain Sues who can somehow capture and plant Angels under veil of COMPLETE SECRECY but can't keep far less conspicuous vanity projects from being 100% leaked. Don't think it holds up terribly well. Villain Sueing the shit out of Seele also sucks away the agency and implied complexity of the Angels. Like... why do it? :headscratch:

S2 Engines are a kind of energy reactor far more dangerous than the nuclear sort. The last time humans meddled with one, an entire continent got turned into a crater. There's no way to reliably slay Angels and prevent their S2s from blowing from a literal core breach, either. You really, really don't need to invoke sabotage to explain why Eva-04 and part of Nevada got sent to the other side. Negative energy is supposed to be drawn out via the S2, but something went wrong and the equation got reversed.

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Re: Nerv Nevada, S2 Engine Installation, Unit-04 Sabotaged?

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Postby Sachi » Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:44 pm

I don't think it's at all a stretch to say that Seele may be able to influence/predict the behaviors of some of the Angels. We see it with Kaworu as well, and Rebuild seems to only have taken this concept further with Tunniel. It obviously can't apply to all the Angels, but for certainly for some. Otherwise, why does the show suggest sabotage in the first place? Why suggest conspiracy for Matarael and the Tokyo-03 blackout? (I'm honestly not thrilled about Matarael's arrival during the blackout being a dumb coincidence; it's too convenient). I don't think Seele attempting to influence some of the Angels (and sometimes succeeding) subtracts from the agency of the Angels at all. Agency and lack of agency are major themes of the series, and Angels should be just as vulnerable to being manipulated as people, because they're only human like the rest of us.
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Re: Nerv Nevada, S2 Engine Installation, Unit-04 Sabotaged?

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Postby Reichu » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:22 pm

Misato suggested sabotage because they were hashing out possibilities and she suggested one in keeping with her personality and experience. (Remember Jet Alone? She does.) Ritsuko rightfully leaves things off with "we fucked with shit we didn't understand".

They suggested the blackout was engineered because it was. Kaji did it. Matarael showing up around the same time could be as simple as observational data of the Angel being suppressed higher up in the pipeline due to opportunity. Government organizes their mapping project quickly, Kaji initiates the blackout, government agents map the facilities while Nerv is preoccupied.

Seele are able to influence Kaworu because they captured him as a microscopic being and raised him from scratch. He also has a Lilin body and can be manipulated using known methods. How do you "influence" the other Angels, exactly? They're people, yes, but it's not like you can bribe them, torture them, subject them to social pressure, sit them down for a parley, or anything in the known playbook. You can throw warheads and Evas at them and that's about it. Methods that are neither mentioned nor intimated might as well not exist. (Like, you COULD claim that Seele are influencing Angels using psychics, or make up something else off the cuff, but you really shouldn't need to.)

What's simpler: these Angels reached their destinations without assistance (which they've repeatedly demonstrated they are capable of doing), or Seele is doing all of this stuff totally offscreen with non-trivial levels of secrecy and undisclosed heights of technological ability for... reasons?

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Re: Nerv Nevada, S2 Engine Installation, Unit-04 Sabotaged?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:25 am

Since I watched the series as a conspiracy theory with foreground giant robot action, my read of the Unit-04 event was of someone covering up (and destroying anything that might be used to help duplicate the work) after they had achieved exactly what they wanted from the experiment. The "someone" being one of the other factions than Gendo's own little conspiracy within a conspiracy, probably the Committee/SEELE rather than whichever other players Kaji was being a multiway agent for, this time.
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