"We'll treat you very well"

[TheCarkolum]

In EoE, there is a scene that always seems out of place to me. That one when Shinji says: "So, you promise me you'll treat me well" or something like that(I don't remember the literal words), so Asuka-Rei-Misato says: "We'll treat you very well", and Shinji replies: "you liars! you hide yourselves in those fake smiles..."

I don't see the point of that. What do you mean by "fake" smiles? None of the three ladies fake a smile in the show. Besides, what do they mean by "treat you very well"? In the instrumentality nobody really "treats" nobody. And I know that this occurs in Shinji's mind (or not¿?), but Shinji has no reason to think that the ladies are faking anything. Asuka CLEARLY doesn't fake any simpathy for Shinji, Rei never smiles and when she treats Shinji well, she is clearly not faking anything. The one that may be faking it sometimes is Misato, but in the EoE she speaks clearly to Shinji and besides why would Shinji take Misato's smiles so personal?

Even the end of the scene doesn't convince me. Shinji says that needs hearing their voices, yet by this point, is Asuka the one who actually cares about (as paradoxically it's shown in the next scene). So what do you guys think? maybe that scene was not needed at all?

[Sachi]

Here's the actual dialogue:

SPOILER: Show

(Rei, Asuka and Shinji inside an empty train - Asuka standing over Shinji)

Asuka:
If you can't be all mine, then I don't need you!

Shinji:
Then, be nice to me...

Asuka/Misato/Rei:
We are nice to you.

Shinji:
LIARS!! You're all just hiding behind a smile!
You just want to keep things ambiguous!

Rei:
Because the truth hurts us all... Because it's very, very distressing.

Shinji:
But ambiguity only makes me insecure.

Rei:
That's just an excuse...

Shinji:
But it makes me afraid... Afraid that I won't be needed again someday.
It makes me uneasy! It worries me! Let me hear your voice!
Interact with me!!
Care about me!!!

Basically, it's emphasizing the insecurities many experience when socializing, because it's impossible to truly tell what anothers intentions are. Even when people are smiling and acting nice, it can still be incredibly stressful to determine if they're being genuine in their kind behavior, or if they're just pretending to be nice when they really hate you. Shinji needs constant reassurance that he's needed, and ambiguity feeds his anxiety to that end. This is the reason he pilots the Eva as well, because he feels it's the only way he'll be wanted by others; in his mind, without the Eva, nobody could possibly want or need him. Because he hates himself, he believes others must hate him as well, and that the only reason they're nice to him is because he's useful for piloting the Eva.

[TheCarkolum]

Ok, I see. Yeah, so many dubs have messed my mind up. So the thing is, Shinji is referring to the three ladies. Only Misato fits within that description of being "nice" and so.

Even when people are smiling and acting nice, it can still be incredibly stressful to determine if they're being genuine in their kind behavior, or if they're just pretending to be nice when they really hate you.

But that's not the case of Shinji. Except Asuka and Kaworu, nobody has been nice to Shinji.
Shinji feels anxiety because he is not used to socialize, not because the others' behavior. Everyone else treats Shinji as a tool, or a threat (like Asuka does many times). That is where his insecurities come from, not because some cynical behavior (like this scene seems to hint)

[Sachi]

It really is his cynical behavior that is the root of it all. I should have included this in my last post, but his abandonment issues regarding his father are a major factor in all this. In Shinji's eyes, after his mother died, his father wanted nothing to do with him and sent him away, only calling for his return when he needed him to pilot the Eva. For much of the first half of the series, Shinji is seeking approval from his father by piloting. His relationship with his father certainly shaped his worldview and how he interacts with people in general. This is supported in Ep 3, when Ritsuko surmises that he gets through life simply "doing as he's told", which is his way of feeling needed. The episode also delves into the Hedgehog's Dilemma, a major theme of the series, which is used to describe Shinji's fear of getting too close to others and becoming hurt (just like with his father); this fear of his is still very much in play during the scene in EoE you bring up.

[C.T.1290]

And that's why my feelings about Asuka isn't so positive. It's her attitude towards Shinji that makes me skeptical of her having any goodness in heart or even a shred of care for someone under the same roof as her. So I doubt that she'll ever be nice to Shinji, if she does, then that will be the day that pigs fly.

This is the reason he pilots the Eva as well, because he feels it's the only way he'll be wanted by others; in his mind, without the Eva, nobody could possibly want or need him. Because he hates himself, he believes others must hate him as well, and that the only reason they're nice to him is because he's useful for piloting the Eva.

So I'm correct in assuming that this is the exact same problem that Asuka is facing? The reason that she's the way she is?

[Sachi]

And that's why my feelings about Asuka isn't so positive. It's her attitude towards Shinji that makes me skeptical of her having any goodness in heart or even a shred of care for someone under the same roof as her. So I doubt that she'll ever be nice to Shinji, if she does, then that will be the day that pigs fly.

There's a misconception that Asuka is never nice, or never shows positive feelings toward Shinji, which is simply not true.

Certainly toward the end of the series, Asuka grows more bitter toward Shinji, but this is mostly a result of her own breakdown. However, during the action arc of the series, there's plenty of friendly moments between the two. Magma Diver is one example where Asuka was actively flirting with Shinji (thermal expansion). There's also the episode Asuka comes home early and compliments Shinji on his cello playing; later this episode, she asks if he wants to kiss. After Shinji is spat out of Leliel, Asuka shows up to his hospital room, obviously concerned about him. And in Ep 22', she shows obvious signs of jealousy when she sees Shinji hanging out with Rei outside of school. It's clear she cares about him, even if she's otherwise an abrasive person to be around.

It's these exact kinds of mixed messages that Shinji dwells on and gets anxious about. He himself isn't sure whether or not Asuka likes him or hates him, and for good reason. Although she does care for him, she'll scream things like "I hate you" at him. Shinji takes the message at face value, believing she truly does hate him, when in reality Asuka is having a personal meltdown of her own, and she is unable to express herself properly. Miscommunication, etc.

Then comes Kaworu, who is everything Shinji wants in a person. Shinji wants someone that will actively and honestly care for him, constantly behaving nice and friendly to him, and essentially revolving their lives around him. This is an unrealistic expectation of any normal person. Real relationships don't work like this, which is something Shinji needs to understand. When he calls everybody "Liars!" when they claim to be nice to him, it's because he can't handle the mixed messages and ambiguity he receives from normal social interactions.

[TheCarkolum]

So the thing you're saying, Sachi, is that the scene shows how Shinji lies to himself and projects his own cynical behavior into the three ladies? Well, I could agree with that, but I don't think Shinji is cynical either. He does what he is told because he's afraid. He's a coward. He doesn't want to confront reality, so the only way to exist without being hurt is following orders. There's a difference between that and being a cynical person.

Besides, there's a problem. Why isn't Kaworu in that scene? He's been nice to him, and he tricked Shinji. Is not Kaworu the perfect example? But instead the ladies appear, which makes me think that there's a sexual subtext beneath all this. It's a confusing scene, no matter how you read it.

But anyway, the Asuka thing I might give it to you. But how about Rei?? There's no ambiguity here. Since episode 6, she was nice to him, she takes care of him, he feels perfectly comfortable with her. Where are the mixed feelings? I don't see them.

[Sachi]

So the thing you're saying, Sachi, is that the scene shows how Shinji lies to himself and projects his own cynical behavior into the three ladies? Well, I could agree with that, but I don't think Shinji is cynical either. He does what he is told because he's afraid. He's a coward. He doesn't want to confront reality, so the only way to exist without being hurt is following orders. There's a difference between that and being a cynical person.

I find his character to be particularly cynical, at least when it comes to his self worth and happiness. But I suppose we'll agree to disagree.

Besides, there's a problem. Why isn't Kaworu in that scene? He's been nice to him, and he tricked Shinji. Is not Kaworu the perfect example? But instead the ladies appear, which makes me think that there's a sexual subtext beneath all this. It's a confusing scene, no matter how you read it.

Oh, there's sexual subtext throughout the entire movie. The three ladies are significantly more important characters, and are often grouped together in a trio as a motif representing the women in Shinji's life.

But anyway, the Asuka thing I might give it to you. But how about Rei?? There's no ambiguity here. Since episode 6, she was nice to him, she takes care of him, he feels perfectly comfortable with her. Where are the mixed feelings? I don't see them.

Shinji became freaked out about Rei upon seeing the Reiquarium in Ep 23. He says as much to Asuka in the hospital scene; because he's scared of Rei and Misato, the only person he feels he can turn to is Asuka (who is literally catatonic). His entire conception of Rei is shattered when he learns of her nature as a clone, so of course he can no longer trust her.

[TheCarkolum]

Yes I knew you were going to bring the Reiquarium up. But there's again, a difference. Shinji is afraid. Not because Rei shows mixed feelings, but because now he knows her terrifying secret. He just doesn't have the courage. In the manga it does make more sense, because Rei III is totally cold with him. She, indeed, shows mixed feelings. Here, is always the same: Shinji is afraid, it's not the others fault. Because of that, I don't buy it.

Oh, there's sexual subtext throughout the entire movie.

Oh yeah, I know. But in this scene it only makes it more confusing (if really exists)

Let's be honest: is this scene that necessary?

[C.T.1290]

There's a misconception that Asuka is never nice, or never shows positive feelings toward Shinji, which is simply not true.

Certainly toward the end of the series, Asuka grows more bitter toward Shinji, but this is mostly a result of her own breakdown.

Well, she did blame him for some of her problems, such as upstaging her, so there's that.

However, during the action arc of the series, there's plenty of friendly moments between the two.

Yeah, too bad that things spiralled downwards later on.

There's also the episode Asuka comes home early and compliments Shinji on his cello playing; later this episode, she asks if he wants to kiss.

And we know how well that turned out, the two of them failed on both sides.

After Shinji is spat out of Leliel, Asuka shows up to his hospital room, obviously concerned about him.

And why would Asuka ever be concerned about Shinji when she sees him as nothing more than a competition?

And in Ep 22', she shows obvious signs of jealousy when she sees Shinji hanging out with Rei outside of school.

Don't really see why she would be jealous since she's always all over Kaji.

It's clear she cares about him, even if she's otherwise an abrasive person to be around.

If that's so, then she'd clearly fooled me with that front of hers. If she does care about him, then why is she always using him as a stress ball or venting her problems out on him for no good reason?

It's these exact kinds of mixed messages that Shinji dwells on and gets anxious about. He himself isn't sure whether or not Asuka likes him or hates him, and for good reason. Although she does care for him, she'll scream things like "I hate you" at him. Shinji takes the message at face value, believing she truly does hate him, when in reality Asuka is having a personal meltdown of her own, and she is unable to express herself properly. Miscommunication, etc.

And she succeeded in having Shinji believed that she hates him. And that the tension going on between them is pretty much her fault too. If she keeps that up, she won't have any friends and one will like her.

Then comes Kaworu, who is everything Shinji wants in a person. Shinji wants someone that will actively and honestly care for him, constantly behaving nice and friendly to him, and essentially revolving their lives around him.

And that is something Asuka failed at, like many other things she failed in doing.

This is an unrealistic expectation of any normal person. Real relationships don't work like this, which is something Shinji needs to understand. When he calls everybody "Liars!" when they claim to be nice to him, it's because he can't handle the mixed messages and ambiguity he receives from normal social interactions.

Then they should probably do something to prove it him, like some evidence that would indicate so.

And since Shinji doesn't believe them, calling them liars, they should just show and not tell; otherwise, he won't be convinced. They need to understand that he's been betrayed and rejected for so long, especially by his own father. The old man had just casted him aside like he means nothing. And as a result, he's convinced that no one cares for him, not even those closest to him.

If they want to prove to him otherwise, they got a long way to go. Especially Asuka, who's going have to work long and hard to earn Shinji's love and trust, and will have to find some way to make up for how she treated him the entire time.

[Sachi]

Now it seems like you're looking for reasons to vilify her, and the other cast members as well. Again, the world doesn't revolve around Shinji, and they have their own issues as well. He has a lot of growing up to do, and nobody is going to coddle him.

And please ease up on the omnislashing. There's no need to address things point-by-point like that, and it's not conducive to group discussion. https://wiki.evageeks.org/EvaGeeks_Foru ... s_properly.

[C.T.1290]

Now it seems like you're looking for reasons to vilify her, and the other cast members as well.

Yeah, that show seemed to have that effect on me.

As for the Omnislashing, sorry if I got a little carried away. But all those points seemed pretty good and valid to respond to. I guess I wasn't sure if there was a better way to respond to those little points all at once. You know, to get some more clarification for each one.

And about me vilifying Asuka, isn't that what she is?

[KingXanaduu]

^ Asuka may be abrasive and a bully sometimes, but that doesn't really make her a villain, much in the same way Shinji's passiveness towards others in their time of need doesn't make him the bad guy either, like when Misato needed comfort when Kaji was killed.

The tragedy of Evangelion is not the fault of ONE singular person, but the combined issues and failures of all the cast members, and the extreme lengths they go to avoid the pain of becoming close to other people. Opening up to others is a double-edged sword, because while it may let others into your heart, it also can leave you open to being hurt if they're not what you're expecting.

Shinji and Asuka are polar opposite of eachother when it comes to avoiding pain: Asuka being abrasive in order to be more "self-reliant" to not be hurt by others, but only serving to distance herself from when she needs help. Shinji being passive and preferring to hide and rather be ignored and remove the risk of being hated, even though he desires not to be alone. They're two sides of the very same coin, but just going in opposite directions, and both of them unwilling to make the first step to open up to eachother out of fear of being hurt.

It's a failure to open and communicate of BOTH their parts, not just one person.

[CommanderFish]

Shinji:
LIARS!! You're all just hiding behind a smile!
You just want to keep things ambiguous!

Rei:
Because the truth hurts us all... Because it's very, very distressing.

Shinji:
But ambiguity only makes me insecure.

Rei:
That's just an excuse...

Shinji:
But it makes me afraid... Afraid that I won't be needed again someday.
It makes me uneasy! It worries me! Let me hear your voice!
Interact with me!!
Care about me!!!

Speaking of this scene, I don't quite get what that underlined sentence means in this context. "That's just an excuse...", an excuse for what, exactly? Running away? Not interacting with people? I'm thinking of all the Shinji-isms but I can't quite pinpoint anything.