Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:42 am

I know this is a silly question as the answer is quite obvious. But still, Shinji could've finished​ Asuka off if he wanted to, for all the trouble she may have caused him and for being a part of his problem. I'm pretty sure at some point, Shinji must've hated Asuka as much as she hated him.

Sure, her actions towards him may not be as bad Gendo's, but no other character had treated him badly as she did( her verbal abuse, her violent outbursts, taking most of her problems out on Shinji and blaming him for it, even though it was indirectly.). After all the pain, trouble, and annoyance she caused him, it's no wonder Shinji wanted to go as far as to strangle her( I mean, who doesn't want to at some point?). Shinji had taken all he can from her until he reached his breaking point.

And to think that Asuka would have learned something from the kitchen scene during pre-Instrumentality. She may be a bit sassy towards others, but she can't just go and treat everyone like crap as she pleases and expect to get away with it. Otherwise, all her actions will eventually come back to bite her. She obviously did not see it coming when Shinii decided to finally strangle her out of frustration towards her, which may or may not be justified, depending on how you see it.

So then, why wouldn't Shinji want to finish what he started at the beach and in the kitchen scene? Wouldn't he have been better off without the person like Asuka? The person who have been causing him so much grief for no apparent reason?
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby Sicarius VI » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:46 am

Well a few things really. (Oh boy discussion about Eva, it's been a while for me)

1. Shinji was not choking Asuka to try and kill her, but figure out if she was alive, we find this all out from a trading card game that the name escapes my mind, but it's been officially endorsed by Anno and Gainax.

2. The end of EoE is really suppose to be about acceptance. When Asuka caresses Shinji's face like Yui did moments(as seen by the auidence, for Shinji we don't know the time between him coming out of HIP and Asuka) before there is a sense of acceptance between the two. Even Asuka's infamous line "How disgusting" us just a follow up to how she now knows Shinji wacked off to her in the beginning of the movie and her very Asuka response.

3. Going through HIP, Shinji may have very well saw Asuka's past and understands why she acted the way she does. Again coming back to acceptance, and also hope.
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby Guy Nacks » Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:32 am

View Original PostSicarius VI wrote:Even Asuka's infamous line "How disgusting" us just a follow up to how she now knows Shinji wacked off to her in the beginning of the movie and her very Asuka response.


This is very much up for debate, though. She already addressed him whacking off to her earlier in the film, so I'm inclined to believe that her final line focuses on something different. In my opinion, I think she's referencing the entire experience and fallout of 3rd Impact and the HIP.
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby Joseki » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:41 am

I don't think Shinji had any real intention of hurting Asuka, but anyway the reason why he stopped doing whatever he was doing and started crying was very clear:

SPOILER: Show
Image

SPOILER: Show
Image


Asuka gave him some love for the first time, he probably felt infinite emotions at the same time, started crying and wasn't able to do anything for a while.
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby peripateia » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:57 pm

One more final is the most straightforward demonstration of the Hedgehog's dilemma in the NGE universe. Hedgehog's dilemma in a nutshell: the closer you get to someone, the more pain you will experience from this person. Yet if you choose to remain aloof from others, you will miss out on the human warmth that you crave by nature.

My interpretation of the beach scene:
Shinji strangled Asuka to confirm that she was her own self, that the AT fields were back. In a perverse way, he hurt her to be closer to her. And she reciprocated with the most tenderness she'd ever shown anyone. Shinji broke down in tears from realizing that he'd hurt her deeply. And Asuka replied with disgust because they were back to square one: they were still two lonely people who hurt one another whenever they try to get closer.

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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby Chuckman » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:30 pm

He had to buy her dinner first.

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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:33 am

peripateia wrote:And she reciprocated with the most tenderness she'd ever shown anyone

Joseki wrote:Asuka gave him some love for the first time

And how is Asuka even capable of such gestures? I mean, she was never able to show such kindness towards a person before, much less towards Shinji, whom she may have despised before.
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby Kendrix » Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:45 pm

View Original PostSicarius VI wrote:1. Shinji was not choking Asuka to try and kill her, but figure out if she was alive, we find this all out from a trading card game that the name escapes my mind, but it's been officially endorsed by Anno and Gainax.


That doesN't mean they screened every part/ would be speculation that they simply let be. I mean if he never intended to strangle her at all if would really take away from the scene & the violent iconography in it. Otherwise he could just, like, poke her.


To begin with, Shinji isn't really the "murdery revenge" kind of guy & tends to feel bad about causing distress even to ppl who are his enemies or when he couldn't help it. He's generally more lowkey about expressing frustration, more likely to get all mouthy & complain about unfairness than to confront anyone head on & throughout the series he consistently doesn't want any human lives on his hands, even if he's not very sucessul or realistic about accomplishing this.
EoE represents a point where he's pushed so far by so much trauma & punishment that the pent-up inner resentment comes to the outside - in terms of narrative craftng so it can be purged & dealth with. This the very day after Kaworu's death, Shinji considered drowning himsef earlier that morning - a wholly exceptional circumstance really, had he been given even a couple of days to bounce back the whole thing would have gone differently (but we would have a boringer movie, so yeah.)

It also has to be considered that its implied that he was on his own for a while, thinking he'd killed everyone (the script specifies that those posts like the one with Misato's cross on it were supposed to be gravemarkers) - Choking her was probably a split-second impulsive decision to begin with, like, he saw her & was overtaken with wrath about all the grievances she caused him, & seized her by the neck, but it wasn't the sort of deliberate decision that it would be hard to dissuade him from given that he's not usually a violent person.
The physical touch basically made him snap out of it & realize what he's doing. It's something sure to get a response from him because he's just not very used to physical affection.

I mean she was a jerk to him, but someone being a jerk doesn't mean you're justified in killing them - its the opposite that would need more justification, not sparing her, it's not an all or nothing thing - Besides, the whole movie was about Shinji comming to terms with coexisting with others even if it's at times hard & painful - & here Asuka, a person he's had nothing but conflict with (with the hormonal crush merely adding to it) is a standin for all the difficulties one encounters during interaction. It's kind of a microcosm of the movie in which Shinji almost went through with Third Impact because he's just so through with the world - "They never cared for me so why should I stop their demise?" (note that his decision to do this is also representated by his choking a mental representation of Asuka) - through deliberation he basically comes to decide that this isn't really what he wants & undoes everything by coming back.
Letting Asuka go is sort of an affirmation or continuation of that, of "We have to coexist even if it sucks".

In the end the scene was meant to be ambiguous & discussed to death & probably crafted more with the idea of leaving a certain emotional taste in the viewer's mouth.

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:And how is Asuka even capable of such gestures? I mean, she was never able to show such kindness towards a person before, much less towards Shinji, whom she may have despised before.


Personally, I chose to interpret Asuka's side of things in the light of how that line was supposed to go in the draft: "I'll never let someone like you kill me!" which Anno probably felt didn't have enough Oophm.

Asukas own story in the movie is that after being to the lowest of lows she finds out that when she's actually faced with the prospect of being killed, she doesn't actually want to die - after all her whole over-the-top pride & were that she feared that she'd get screwed over & be destroyed just like her mom if she wasn't invincible & perfect. I don't think this was something Asuka was consciously aware of before, she was all like "I'd rather die than lose my pride" and instead seems to have at last starved herself if not outright attempted suicide when they find her in ep 24.
Her callous conpetitive behavior is self-preservation thrown into overdrive & twisted into a perverse knot that ultimately does the opposite (as it is often the case with ppl's complexes and defensive patterns) - & from the moment she wakes up to the sound of those bombs her goal is pretty much to survive - a sort of full circle since she always kind of represented vitality & force.
At first she's kinda whimpering & afraid but reuniting with her mother & getting her side of the story gives her the motivation boost to actually act to make it happen & once EVA 02 activates, she fights like a savage to her last breath; Then, she presumably gets her soul picked up by a random Rei apparition the way Misato & Ritsuko did & much of what we see during instrumentality related primarily to Shinji's PoV of things, their various communication fails & what she represents to him, but on the beach scene we see Asuka proper back to full individuality as if she'd just come from her battle (the bandages are probably meant to remind us of it) - her being back earlier than the average person could have to do with her personally knowing Shinji & thus noticing he wasn't in the collective, thereby being reminded of her individuality, but it probably also has to do with how her las conscious thoughts were not wanting to die - so she's still acting out of that motivation.

Even in the finished draft, she's note to say her last line "in the coldest possible voice" - And given that he did almost kill her & do something that, extreme circumstances aside, is basically sexual harassment, that's not surprising .
I think she reached out because she knew it would get him to relent, though there may have been other less conscious motivations - when he stops & breaks down, we see that she doesn't have any sympathy for him at all (which again she has no reason to though it's hard not to see a continuation o her usual contempt) - in a sense, that's a fulfillment of the caveat that Shinji was told: Bring the AT fields back and people will be able to hurt & deceive each other again. We're seeing the first moment of hurt & deception, in a sense a confirmation that instrumentality is truly undone & thsús "all we need to know"


As for "her actions comming back to bite her", didn't Asuka get more than enough of that? I mean from ep 16 onwards it starts dawning on her that her fantasy reality where she's a perfect person is not the truth, she ends up in partially self-inflicted isolation (much like Shinji), her vainglorious need to prove herself gets her into progressively messier defeats.
In the end she's just a douchey teenager - it's not like she's not to blame for it (sure she had a bad past but so did nearly everyone else & while they're all flawed they're not, like, actively mean to everyone they meet), but only in so far as a traumatized teenager can be responsible for anything.
Someone who's dead can't learn after all.

I mean if she were a real person and I a person her age or younger (as I was when I first watched the show) I would probably hugely dislike her & avoid being around her but saying she deserves death is a huge different caliber, and saying that it's surprisig Shinji didn't off her seems like a bit of a burn-the-witch attitude to me. Choking her is ultimately a heinous act in itself even if we can understand & forgive Shinji under the execeptional circumstances. It's not a good thing, and it would be even worse if he'd gone through with it. He'ck, he'd probably have blamed himself forever once he's come to his senses.
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby Sicarius VI » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:11 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:That doesN't mean they screened every part/ would be speculation that they simply let be. I mean if he never intended to strangle her at all if would really take away from the scene & the violent iconography in it. Otherwise he could just, like, poke her.



Completely disagree with you here. First off, I never said "He never intended to strangle her" what I said was "Shinji was not choking Asuka to try and kill her, but figure out if she was alive" which comes from this in the trading card game.

"Shinji renounced the world where all hearts had melted into one and accepted each other unconditionally. His desire... to live with 'others' -- other hearts that would sometimes reject him, even deny him. That is why the first thing he did after coming to his senses was to place his hands around Asuka's neck. To feel the existence of an 'other'. To confirm (make sure of) rejection and denial."


Also, I HIGHLY doubt Gainax would have supported the card game and gave it the green light if they didn't look over everything. I'm going to give you this source here, as this person puts it in better words than I ever could. https://eva.onegeek.org/pipermail/oldev ... 40379.html

The reason for your dismissal of the card game is wrong and completely unwarranted.

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Besides that I agree with a lot of what you said, and hell the same card game you just dismissed helps your argument specifically here.

It also has to be considered that its implied that he was on his own for a while, thinking he'd killed everyone (the script specifies that those posts like the one with Misato's cross on it were supposed to be gravemarkers)


Again, a lot of EoE is about Acceptance and at the very end Hope.
Last edited by Sicarius VI on Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:16 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:I mean she was a jerk to him, but someone being a jerk doesn't mean you're justified in killing them - its the opposite that would need more justification, not sparing her,

What would one suggest then? And what do you mean by "the opposite that would need more justification, not sparing her" part?
I think she reached out because she knew it would get him to relent, though there may have been other less conscious motivations - when he stops & breaks down, we see that she doesn't have any sympathy for him at all (which again she has no reason to though it's hard not to see a continuation o her usual contempt)

So she doesn't love him then? Or even care about him at all? I should have known as such. Then again, that's just Asuka, nothing but hate and contempt in her.

As for "her actions comming back to bite her", didn't Asuka get more than enough of that?

I think she could use more of that, until she learns something.
In the end she's just a douchey teenager ....I mean if she were a real person and I a person her age or younger (as I was when I first watched the show) I would probably hugely dislike her & avoid being around her but saying she deserves death is a huge different caliber, and saying that it's surprisig Shinji didn't off her seems like a bit of a burn-the-witch attitude to me.

That first part is just another reason why not to like Asuka. If she were a real person like you said, I probably wouldn't want her near me. Not until she learns to straighten out.
And what do mean by "different caliber"? Yes, death towards a fictional character is a bit much, but if not that and then coming back from Instrumentality, how else is she suppose to learn from her mistakes? And I think that since Asuka has given Shinji nothing but grief, then it's right for him to finish what he started from the kitchen scene; just a way to get her to shut up and mind her attitude. It was only a matter of time before Shinji decided he has had enough of Asuka and overly obnoxious attitude. Enough was enough.
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:24 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:So she doesn't love him then? Or even care about him at all? I should have known as such.

She doesn't need to love him to feel a degree of natural human sympathy or understanding towards him. Admittedly, thinking otherwise is a common teenage aberration, but most move past it.

It was only a matter of time before Shinji decided he has had enough of Asuka and overly obnoxious attitude. Enough was enough.

I guess that both of them learnt more from their experience in instrumentality than you appear to have learnt from watching them go through it. And that was rather the point of the whole thing!
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby Sicarius VI » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:34 pm

^ I slight ninja by you there.

@C.T As you are asking Kendrix this questions I won't be one to speak for the person, but I did want to answer one.

1. Suggest for what? Getting Asuka to be less of a jerk? How about talking it out, maybe Shinji standing up for himself, or maybe the two understanding each other as certainly they would have more insight to each other after H.I.P. Again, a big part of EoE is about Hope and Acceptance. The acceptance of each other and hope that things will get better. Do you just kill anyone who is a jerk to you? I don't think so, so why would Shinji be justified for killing Asuka in this scene if he did?
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:09 pm

View Original PostSicarius VI wrote: so why would Shinji be justified for killing Asuka in this scene if he did?

I thought that after all she did to Shinji, and for how she treated him and others, she was more or less deserving of that, or at least be hurt or bruised to some extent. Because of how she is, who wouldn't want to open a can of hurt on her as some sort of reprimanding?

And it seems pretty obvious that the whole ShinjiXAsuka relationship was entirely hopeless to begin with, so why would Shinji ever want to be with a bratty girl who was nothing but bad luck to him?
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:25 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:And it seems pretty obvious that the whole ShinjiXAsuka relationship was entirely hopeless to begin with

I recommend you read Ghosts of Evangelion. It show's that even a relationship between these two can work and brings more focus to Asuka's positive traits
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby Cybermat47 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:02 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:I thought that after all she did to Shinji, and for how she treated him and others, she was more or less deserving of that, or at least be hurt or bruised to some extent. Because of how she is, who wouldn't want to open a can of hurt on her as some sort of reprimanding??


Hurt? Already done.

Image

Can of hurt opened? Already done.

Image

As a bonus, here's some sexual violation.

Image
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby Kendrix » Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:12 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:What would one suggest then? And what do you mean by "the opposite that would need more justification, not sparing her" part?


Killing someone requires more explanation than not killing someone, unless it's like a self-defense situation. It's easy to forget when you're discussing murder-filled fiction day in day out but it should be pretty much a no brainer.

Having "enough of her obnoxious attitude" doesn't equal bashing in her windpipe, and there's a time & a place. At that point in time Asuka has as much if no more reason to "have enough" of him as the other way around, though he made the right choice in the end he didn't exactly splatter himself with glory here, and more importantly they're the only two people around and will probably have to work together in order to survive. And Asuka's the one who's a trained fighter - like, first things first? Can we get some proportionality in here? How about maybe just avoiding her in the future or something?
Like, in my personal, no doubt subjective opinion she's a bully & he doesn't owe her shit, and to hell with this idea that Shinji somehow needs to fix both himself & her to 'save' her but no word of what she should do, but there's still this thing called basic human decency that, lapses nonwithstanding, should ideally be upheld?
After all the uglyness between them I doubt they talked much after civilization halfway came back, best case they met again a few years later being a lot more mature & understanding & kinda become sorta distant friends who occasionally check up on each other, I presume Shinji would live a life of peace & quiet somewhere whereas Asuka would still be ambitious even if she stopped being morbid about it, and, like, be the CEO of a company peddling futuristic technology or something.

It's not a black & white dichotomy between killing her & marrying her for pete's sake. Of course he has no reason to chose to be near some person he has nothing but arguments with but he still needs to be able to cope with people like her existing if he is to live on this earth and that's apparently what he chose after giving instrumentality a fair try & deciding that it sucked. (this being the point of the movie)



I didn't want to say it because I didn't want this to turn tumblery & accusatory & awkward, but I'm almost tempted to call sexism on this. She's shitty girlfriend material so she should die? She's a person? She's like 14? She has value other than wether or not she's girlfriend material? Even if it's just the basic value of a human who hasn't done anything super criminal. Like, she's a mean schoolgirl, not some dictator.
She could still very much grow up to be a halfway decent person if placed in a less sucky enviroment, after all she did kinda have something very much like a normal friendship with Hikari.
I mean I can't even remotely stand her but can we agree that choking people to death is morally questionable at best & should be avoided if possible?
Like I don't want to do you an injustice here, are you perhaps comming at this from a level of general cynicism about humans in that you think someone in Shinji's situation would off her? In that case, remember that all humans are different.
Last edited by Kendrix on Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby Stillborn » Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:22 am

I can agree with Kendrix. While I can understand Shinji choking Asuka in instrumentality in explosion of rage he could no longer suppress, killing someone deliberately and with cold blood is not something Shinji would do or should do, especially if their only crime was being a pain in the ass. Turning back and walking away would be sufficent.
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:33 pm

@Cybermat47: Yes, I know Asuka has already gone through the worst of things. However, I still feel as though she hadn't reached the point where she learned anything from her experience or the choices she made, even after Instrumentality. I think what happened to her is what she brought upon herself; had she changed her ways earlier, things might have turned out a little more different and she wouldn't have to suffer through it all.

I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time sympathizing with her because of how she treated others.
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby Kendrix » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:04 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:@Cybermat47: Yes, I know Asuka has already gone through the worst of things. However, I still feel as though she hadn't reached the point where she learned anything from her experience or the choices she made, even after Instrumentality. I think what happened to her is what she brought upon herself; had she changed her ways earlier, things might have turned out a little more different and she wouldn't have to suffer through it all.

I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time sympathizing with her because of how she treated others.


No one's saying you should sympathize with her.
But what's with this idea that bashing people over the head with heavy handed "punishment" somehow makes them learn?
Often enough being cornered & on the defensive makes people more reliant on their rigid behavior patterns and narrow PoVs.
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C.T.1290
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Age: 26
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:35 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:No one's saying you should sympathize with her.
But what's with this idea that bashing people over the head with heavy handed "punishment" somehow makes them learn?
Often enough being cornered & on the defensive makes people more reliant on their rigid behavior patterns and narrow PoVs.

I thought that she would learn from her mistakes, take a look at the world and the people around her, open her eyes to a trail of messes she leaves behind, and realize the consequences of her actions and how it affected the people close to her. And I thought that after Instrumentality, she would probably, I don't know, find some way to improve herself; take responsibility for how she treated others, own up to her actions for once, clean up her act, and finally realize that being a bitch to everyone will get her nowhere and that she'll always be alone because no one wants to be around her.
Despite all the bad things that had happened to her, including the ones that were pretty much her fault for being too prideful and overly competitive, never once did she look back on her own actions and the consequences it leaves behind and realizes she didn't exactly made the right choices.
Never once did she think about other people's feelings and the trouble she caused them.
Never once did she realized that she was going at things the wrong way.
Never once had she ever apologized to those she had treated poorly and begged for forgiveness.
Never once had she done some self reflection on how she treats other people and how negatively they view her.
And never once had she done ANY form of kindness towards someone else rather than focusing on her self-centered desire to put herself above others while hurting them in the process and not once think about how badly it effected others.
Let's face it, she was nothing but a selfish, egotistical, self-centered, glory hogging, rude, overly competitive, obnoxious, loudmouthed, bullying, narcissistic, uncaring, calloused, bad tempered, violent, pushy, and annoying brat.
*Deep breath*
Sorry if this ranting seemed a little extreme, but that's how I feel about Asuka at this point. And I think that she'll always be like that for years come and with no hope of ever becoming a better character because that's how people will always remember her as.
Craab People, Craab People. Taste like crab, talk like people. Craab People, Craab People.


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