What was Seele's original goal for Fourth Impact? Eva Q

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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What was Seele's original goal for Fourth Impact? Eva Q

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Postby Sachi » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:33 am

In Eva Q, we get to witness the glorious destruction that was an averted Fourth Impact. During which, Seele apparently gives their consent to be killed by Gendo in order to have their souls released to be gathered for the Impact. Meanwhile, Kaworu realizes that the spears have changed, and despite Shinji pulling the spears and starting the Impact anyways, Kaworu gives his own life to make sure Fourth Impact isn't completed. If the spears had been the correct ones, Kaworu would have been fine with the Impact, and Seele would have gotten what they wanted. Instead, due to Gendo's treachery, the Impact is averted, and Seele dies for no reason.

Much of the film is Kaworu using his devil's tongue to lure Shinji into blindly going with Seele's plans. What's made clear is that the change in Spears made a big enough difference in Seele's scenario for Kaworu to abort, albeit too late for Seele. What's not clear is what difference the change in spears actually makes to Seele's plans. Just like when they used Kaworu to interfere with Third Impact at the end of 2.22, it's clear that they don't want just any old Impact; they're after a very specific version of an Impact.

To begin exploring this, we have to consider a few things. First and foremost is Gendo's farewell to Seele in Q.

SPOILER: Show
01:16:24 {Gendo} It is time to amend the Dead Sea Scrolls' contract.
01:16:29 {Gendo} This is farewell.
01:16:33 {Gendo} Though you have all changed the form of your souls,
01:16:37 {Gendo} you are still creatures blessed with the Fruit of Knowledge.
01:16:41 {Gendo} Though you could have lived for an eternity,
01:16:44 {Gendo} you can escape the fate of death no more than us.
01:16:50 {Gendo} To advance the evolution of the flock burdened by death,
01:16:54 {Gendo} you gave us the gift of civilization.
01:17:00 {Gendo} On behalf of humanity, I thank you.
01:17:04 {Gendo} Let death return your souls to where they belong.
01:17:12 {Gendo} The long desired Human Instrumentality Project,
01:17:15 {Gendo} and the inevitable deicide, will be completed by me.
01:17:19 {Gendo} Rest assured.
01:17:21 {Seele 01} Our wishes have come to fruition.
01:17:25 {Seele 01} Good.
01:17:26 {Seele 01} All is well now.
01:17:29 {Seele 01} We wish for Human Instrumentality, the peaceful purification of all souls.

This conversation implies that Seele is really old, and that they were responsible for civilization. It's also implied that they were once humans, based on them having changed the form of their souls to extend their lifetime, and this is supported by the fact that they choose to also join in Instrumentality.

This conversation also harks back to Kaworu's explanation of Third Impact earlier in the film.

SPOILER: Show
00:50:55 {Kaworu} Mass extinctions are not unusual on this planet.
00:50:58 {Kaworu} In fact, they help drive evolution.
00:51:02 {Kaworu} Life has always changed itself to adapt to the world around it.
00:51:08 {Kaworu} However, Lilin change not themselves, but the world.
00:51:15 {Kaworu} So they brought the rite of artificial evolution unto themselves.
00:51:21 {Kaworu} Old life is offered in sacrifice,
00:51:23 {Kaworu} so that new beings blessed with the Fruit of Life may be created.
00:51:29 {Kaworu} All this is an act of extinction that has been programmed since time immemorial.
00:51:33 {Kaworu} Nerv call it the Human Instrumentality Project.

"Lilin change not themselves, but the world". This could be a reference to the Fruit of Knowledge and the civilization that was bestowed upon humanity by Seele. The goal of the Human Instrumentality project is to create new life blessed with the Fruit of Life.

This raises some questions about Third Impact and the Failures of Infinity. While the events of the fourteen year gap are intentionally shrouded in mystery and will continue to be, I wonder about the nature of Near Third Impact (which we see in 2.22), versus actual Third Impact, which is what results in the Failures of Infinity. As established earlier, Seele interfered with N3I because it wasn't what they wanted; it was an uncontrolled Impact manipulated into happening by Gendo, and they stopped it using the Mark 06. Based on what we see in Q, it's clear that it was started up again, and that the Mark 06 was involved at the center, after somehow being made autonomous (perhaps by Dummy Plug, or possession by the 12th Angel). Asuka also has a line, however, saying Third Impact will start again if Shinji pulls the spears, implying it was stopped again before being completed. All in all, it appeared to be another mess that was aborted, but the end result was the planet being left the way it was, and the FoIs being created. Are these the beings blessed with the Fruit of Life Seele is looking to become? Or is this still not what they want? Why did Third Impact stop?

What we do know is that Seele didn't release their souls to be gathered for Instrumentality when the FoIs were created. We also know that Kaworu doesn't appear to have been directly involved in the Impact, due to the Mark 06 having been made autonomous. Was Third Impact set off before they were ready? I speculate that Gendo had a hand in sabotaging their plan with the Mark 06, and that it was probably Misato and co. that aborted the Impact. Either way, it does not appear to have gone the way Seele wanted, hence the next fourteen years of planning for them. Perhaps the FoIs were their original plan, but was screwed up. Perhaps their plan was hijacked by Gendo yet again, and the FoIs have nothing to do with Seele.

I feel I've gotten no closer to an answer regarding Seele's intentions in the Rebuild series. And now that they're dead and out of the way, we may never know. But maybe in 3.0+1.0 we'll get enough details to fill in the blanks a bit more.

*script found here: https://github.com/eva3/Evangelion--3.0 ... RANSLATION
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Re: What was Seele's original goal for Fourth Impact? Eva Q

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Postby Joseki » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:14 am

With the few lines on the topic spoken in the movie a concrete answer is out of the question, but as you already mentioned there are hints: the concept of "forced evolution" as a goal was brought up twice in the movie, and to NERV it is known as Human Instrumentality Project, something that both Gendo and SEELE wants. We also know that at some point in the 14 years gap Infinity were created but not completed becoming the Failures of Infintity.

I believe that SEELE wanted an Impact that resulted into Human Instrumentilty Project with the creation of those Infinity, an ascension of the single human being into a godlike being, a sort of Übermensch with his personal moral, virtue, without instincts, purified from the human condition.

It would be the opposite of what SEELE tried to do in NGE: instead of trying to obtain a world with no boundaries within the souls to fill the gaps inside this time they want to create a singul entity with no gap to fill, infinite (=Infinity) and perfect in every aspect but essentially lonely.
Obviously Gendo wouldn't want this as he wants to reunite with Yui.

Furthermore, SEELE may now be dead, but at the end of Q Fuyutsuki tells Gendo that everything is pretty much in line with SEELE objective, so I think their plan may become clear in 3.0+1.0.
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Re: What was Seele's original goal for Fourth Impact? Eva Q

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Postby Sachi » Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:31 pm

View Original PostJoseki wrote:I believe that SEELE wanted an Impact that resulted into Human Instrumentilty Project with the creation of those Infinity, an ascension of the single human being into a godlike being, a sort of Übermensch with his personal moral, virtue, without instincts, purified from the human condition.

I believe this is probably the simplest explanation as well, given what clues we can gather. The biggest flaw in the idea is why they didn't choose to join in with the Infinities before things fell apart. As I posited earlier, it's possible their plan got triggered before they were prepared. Mark 06 being made autonomous effectively removes control from Kaworu, so I think this has a huge part to do with it. We must also be aware that the 12th Angel at some point comes to occupy the Mark 06.

Then again, another strange thing to consider is the idea that all the pieces required to trigger Fourth Impact were neatly gathered and ready to go. Was Third Impact simply an act to move things into position so that Fourth Impact would go exactly their way, just as Second Impact was? With that in mind, perhaps the 12th Angel was purposefully planted within the Mark 06 for safekeeping? All they were waiting for was Unit-13 (presumably another Adam) which would also include Kaworu as a pilot.
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Re: What was Seele's original goal for Fourth Impact? Eva Q

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Postby Joseki » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:15 am

Was SEELE even capable of ascending to Infinity? This time they aren't human like in they were in NGE, they are a sort of 2001: Space Odyssey monolith mixed with Prometheus, the Greek titan who stole fire from Mount Olympus and gave it to mankind.
They aren't on screen for long in the movie but the few lines they have gave me the feeling they aren't on the same plane of existence as humans are, they felt similar to Kaworu in a sense. They exist for a purpose, life or death are equally viable options for them as long as they fullfil their plan.
Asuka is everything that SEELE and Kaworu aren't: she's fiercy, passionate, she fights as hard as she can to stay alive, she call for help, she has conflicting emotions and is incoherent, she's extremely human (the final part of the movie has Kaworu and Asuka as opponents and I doubt Anno characterized them this way unintentionally).



Near Third Impact in 2.0 was definitely something Gendo planned to set things in motion, Kaji was sure that SEELE wouldn't be happy with such a development and Kaworu wasn't happy either. What happened later is up to speculation but I think that it is the result of SEELE, Gendo and at some point even WILLE constantly sabotaging the others at the right moment, resulting in two aborted impacts.
SEELE was probably as aware of Gendo's plan as Gendo is aware of SEELE's plan. Shinji's retrieval too was so well timed and orchestrated to not be the result of a careful plan contrived even before Operation US started.
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Re: What was Seele's original goal for Fourth Impact? Eva Q

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Postby Sachi » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:34 am

View Original PostJoseki wrote:Was SEELE even capable of ascending to Infinity? This time they aren't human like in they were in NGE, they are a sort of 2001: Space Odyssey monolith mixed with Prometheus, the Greek titan who stole fire from Mount Olympus and gave it to mankind.
They aren't on screen for long in the movie but the few lines they have gave me the feeling they aren't on the same plane of existence as humans are, they felt similar to Kaworu in a sense. They exist for a purpose, life or death are equally viable options for them as long as they fullfil their plan.

I addressed this a bit in my opening post. Gendo's farewell to Seele in Q informs us that Seele are beings with the Fruit of Knowledge (seeking the Fruit of Life) that have changed the form of their souls in order to avoid death. We also see Fuyutsuki deactivating plugs of some sort, which in turn deactivate the Seele monoliths. This information indicates that they used to be human, and that they transferred their souls into machines of some sort, which falls in line with other ideas about soul mechanics in the franchise, and also rings back to Kiel's cybernetic parts in EoE wherein he also used technology to extend his life in order to participate in Third Impact.

There's also the Dead Sea Scrolls' Contract to consider. If the DDS is similar to it's counterpart in NGE, then I hypothesize that Seele discovered the DDS and used this information to bestow humanity with civilization; they probably also used the information to transfer their souls into monoliths as well. The other mention of a Contract was with Lilith in 1.0, who may have been involved in this somehow too. I'll need to examine this more when I get a chance.
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Re: What was Seele's original goal for Fourth Impact? Eva Q

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:45 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:Seele interfered with N3I because it wasn't what they wanted; it was an uncontrolled Impact manipulated into happening by Gendo

Was it? Wasn't Gendo just going to use Unit 01 to kill Zeruel with the dummy plug before it refused, much to his own surprise?
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Re: What was Seele's original goal for Fourth Impact? Eva Q

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Postby Joseki » Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:07 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:I addressed this a bit in my opening post. Gendo's farewell to Seele in Q informs us that Seele are beings with the Fruit of Knowledge (seeking the Fruit of Life) that have changed the form of their souls in order to avoid death. We also see Fuyutsuki deactivating plugs of some sort, which in turn deactivate the Seele monoliths. This information indicates that they used to be human, and that they transferred their souls into machines of some sort, which falls in line with other ideas about soul mechanics in the franchise, and also rings back to Kiel's cybernetic parts in EoE wherein he also used technology to extend his life in order to participate in Third Impact.


I agree on everything you wrote, but in EoE all the souls were harvested and united while this time, if our supposition is correct, they want to physically evolve the single human into something godlike.
I can see a person turning into this, I'm not sure a sentient monolith can become something similar.
Maybe they are doing it for mankind and not for themselves, like Kaworu lived for Shinji more than for himself.
It's just speculation but I can't see why they would let Gendo kill them if they want to become an Infinity.
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Re: What was Seele's original goal for Fourth Impact? Eva Q

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Postby Sachi » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:18 pm

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:Was it? Wasn't Gendo just going to use Unit 01 to kill Zeruel with the dummy plug before it refused, much to his own surprise?

Gendo's goal between 1.0 and 2.0 was to draw Rei and Shinji together so that the bond they would form would eventually awaken Unit-01. This much is made clear. The when and where's come later, but things eventually went the way he wanted them to.

View Original PostJoseki wrote:I agree on everything you wrote, but in EoE all the souls were harvested and united while this time, if our supposition is correct, they want to physically evolve the single human into something godlike.
I can see a person turning into this, I'm not sure a sentient monolith can become something similar.
Maybe they are doing it for mankind and not for themselves, like Kaworu lived for Shinji more than for himself.
It's just speculation but I can't see why they would let Gendo kill them if they want to become an Infinity.

The way the scene plays out, everything seems to be going according to plan for Seele. They wanted their souls to be released to be gathered into the Human Instrumentality Project. I don't believe they wanted individuals to become gods, but for individuals to be gathered into a single godly being. The Infinities were a part of this process. This would explain why the FoIs are desperately reaching for Lilith's head, as sperm would to fertilize an egg; the Infinities were going to merge with Lilith. Just like in EoE, when the MPEs had to commit suicide in order for the souls to be released from the cores and gathered for Instrumentality, I believe Seele was allowing their souls to be released for the same reason. If they had no intention of participating in HIP, it would be odd for them to allow themselves to be killed before the process was complete.
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Re: What was Seele's original goal for Fourth Impact? Eva Q

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Postby Joseki » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:18 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:I don't believe they wanted individuals to become gods, but for individuals to be gathered into a single godly being. The Infinities were a part of this process. This would explain why the FoIs are desperately reaching for Lilith's head, as sperm would to fertilize an egg; the Infinities were going to merge with Lilith.


I think you may be spot on, but I must admit that it feels strange to me: Evangelions are godlike beings, turning a human into something like that it's already a huge evolution I believe. To have then the Infinity turn into a single entity it's another huge step, and would have been much simpler if Anno skipped directly from the normal human being to the single godly entity.
On the other hand without the Infinity the movie wouldn't look as beautiful as it does, and that's a good reason per se.


Aren't also the giant red crosses that Shinji was shown by Kaworu made of Infinity?
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Re: What was Seele's original goal for Fourth Impact? Eva Q

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Postby Zoop » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:01 am

Mind tho, the infinities seem to be made completely out of Core. It seems to me that Core needs a soul to function, without it, its pretty much a useless crystal. So i think the infinities aren't something close to an eva. Just a temporary vessel to transport the soul that would no longer exist after merging with lillith or simply just dying off when the Impact isn't completed. So not Eva clones, just took the appearance of one.

At least, thats what I think the infinities are.

It seems the souls need to be collected into a single container, in EoE this was done by Quantum Rei, I suppose this is just another form of the same thing.

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Re: What was Seele's original goal for Fourth Impact? Eva Q

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Postby Settie » Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:08 pm

Just re-watched 2.0 last night and i noticed several things related to this topic (noticed a bunch of other stuff as well but unrelated to this), although it doesn't answer OPs question, i think there's some more clues about it.

While Gendo and Fuyutsuki were doing the flyover of the moon base, they mention how SEELEs plan involves the "true" evangelion to bring about the HIP, but before they can do that there are several rituals that must be completed. It's also mentioned how the covenant with Lillith being completed by using the Mark-6. Now i believe that the "true" eva is actually Unit-13 and the rituals and covenant refer to 3i proper. So 3i was part of SELEEs overall plan like 2i was, in fact Fuyutsuki implies that the destruction of 2i was orchestrated by Seele.

Gendo or Fuyutsuki (watched it dubbed and their voices sound very similar so not quite sure who said it) also mentions how he didn't know that there would be more evas beyond Unit-5 according to the DSS as they were watching the Mark-6 being constructed and mentions that Seele had access to undisclosed apocrypha. So as far as 2.0 goes, Gendo only had a partial picture of what the DSS said with Seele keeping the rest to themselves.

As far as the large time gap between between 3i and N4i, one has to remember that Seele are implied to be old as hell, so 14 years for them wouldn't really be much of a wait to finally complete their desire. All Seele cares about is HIP so the destruction of 2i and 3i is inconsequential to them so i think 3i being aborted is something that Seele wanted, they just didn't know about Gendo switching or modifying one spear. So it's very likely Seele planned everything except for N3i and the spear switching, as each impact was a piece of a puzzle that was purposely done by Seele. Fuyutsuki even mentions in 3.0 how everything had almost gone according to SELEEs plan. Only thing missing is what SELEEs HIP actually is.

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Re: What was Seele's original goal for Fourth Impact? Eva Q

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Postby Joseki » Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:18 am

I haven't seen 2.0 recently so my memory could be incorrect, but I remember that Fuyutsuki's dialog with Gendo impied that Mark.06 was the true Evangelion they were talking about.

Partially related to the topic, is it ever stated or hinted that Mark.06 is one of the four Adams? I was thinking that maybe it could have been a Lilith clone like Eva 01 was in NGE, and that's why he could have led instrumentality fusing with Lilith.
I still believe that it's one of the Adam because of the horns, but Unit 08 too has a sort of horn and maybe Mark.09 being the "vessel of the Adams" doesn't imply that it's an actual Adam, whatever that means.
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Re: What was Seele's original goal for Fourth Impact? Eva Q

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Postby Settie » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:35 pm

It's not 100% clear but SELEEs plan involves the resurrection of lillith and the awakening of the "true" eva, with the Mark-6 being made towards that purpose. Now given that Unit-13 was made to be capable of awakening and cause 4i and all of that, as Fuyutsuki says, went almost as Seele wanted. It's an assumption but i think a relatively safe assumption that Unit-13 is the "true" eva.

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Re: What was Seele's original goal for Fourth Impact? Eva Q

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Postby Reichu » Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:01 am

Mark.06 was lost in the Third Impact to the 12th Angel, remember. Considering Lilith ended up dead, too, it's probably safe to say that things did not go the way Seele intended. Contrast also the way that Gendo supervises the creation of Eva-13, whereas he's not even allowed to land at Tabgha Base. Seele were at one point in a position to not require his help and could keep him out of the loop as they pleased. Something changed, clearly.
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Re: What was Seele's original goal for Fourth Impact? Eva Q

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Postby Settie » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:22 pm

This'll delve into some fanwanking so getting that caveat out of the way. I think 3i was part of SELEEs plan, the only two times we've seen an eva awaken it required an angel core to do so (Unit-1 with Zeruels and Unit-13 with the 12th angel), given that info along with the rituals Seele needed to complete (resurrection of Lilith, the awakening of the true eva and certain unknown rituals) before they could launch HIP. It seems that they needed an angel core but couldn't control the angels directly, instead using the Mark-6 as a prison for the 12th and the spears to keep it and Lilith in a frozen state until their "true" eva was completed and ready to initiate HIP.

As far as Gendo being the one overseeing the construction of Unit-13, don't forget that Kaworu was there too, his loyalties lie with Seele and Shinji only. Gendo wasn't entirely free to do as he pleased as long as Kaworu was there.

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Re: What was Seele's original goal for Fourth Impact? Eva Q

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Postby Sachi » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:19 pm

@Settie: Gonna have to side with Reichu that Seele was forced to revise their plans and require Gendo's cooperation. I believe 3I may have been their originally intended impact, but something happened (Gendo) which screwed things up for them. They mention their covenant and the resurrection of Lilith, and also the true Evangelion, emphasis being placed on Mark.06. By the time of Q, we can see Lilith had been resurrected and killed, and the Mark.06 disposed. Something went awry, and probably early on, since Seele didn't sacrifice themselves to participate in 3I like they did in 4I.

The thing about Gendo and Kaworu in Q is that Kaworu seems like a watch dog for Seele, making sure Gendo stays in line. Gendo's trust with Seele is uneasy, but absolutely necessary, so they have Kaworu as their acting agent. Realizing this, Gendo acts covertly to dispose of Seele's boy and Seele at the same time, before they even realize what's happening. I wonder how much Kaworu kept tabs on Gendo.

View Original PostJoseki wrote:Partially related to the topic, is it ever stated or hinted that Mark.06 is one of the four Adams? I was thinking that maybe it could have been a Lilith clone like Eva 01 was in NGE, and that's why he could have led instrumentality fusing with Lilith.
I still believe that it's one of the Adam because of the horns, but Unit 08 too has a sort of horn and maybe Mark.09 being the "vessel of the Adams" doesn't imply that it's an actual Adam, whatever that means.

The blood streak on the moon was a result of 2I projecting the Adams in random directions. This is supported by the shot at the beginning of 1.11, of the unexplained gigantic chalk outline of a human shaped creature. The conclusion is that the chalk outline was one of the Adams, likely the one to become Unit-01, while the Mark.06 is an Adam that landed on the moon. Unit-13 is a confirmed Adam, which leaves just one unaccounted for. The Vessel of Adam has to be some sort of hint, but it seems more confusing than anything.

The horns have nothing to do with it.
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Re: What was Seele's original goal for Fourth Impact? Eva Q

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Postby unitM » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:59 am

I think SEELE aimed for regular Instrumentality(EoE) and Gendo is also committing to his original ideals too.


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