Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:23 pm

Whedon off Batgirl is somewhat vindictive for me, as I simply think that Whedon -- as a filmmaker -- is uninspiring and somewhat lazy. I read his awful Wonder Woman script that was rejected back in 2006. We don't need any of that in a Batgirl movie.

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Postby Chuckman » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:39 pm

I wonder if “I realized I didn’t have a story” means “I couldn’t figure out how to make a police commissioner’s plucky daughter who follows in the footsteps of the world’s greatest detective into a brainwashed killer ballerina who can’t get pregnant.”
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:21 pm

It's like...it's right there. The potential for an awesome movie is...right freaking there.

...IT'S RIGHT THERE.

:rageface:
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:40 am

View Original PostChuckman wrote:I wonder if “I realized I didn’t have a story” means “I couldn’t figure out how to make a police commissioner’s plucky daughter who follows in the footsteps of the world’s greatest detective into a brainwashed killer ballerina who can’t get pregnant.”

Nah, it's code for "Can't be inspired to write about a girl who wears boots all the time."

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Postby silvermoonlight » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:17 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Nah, it's code for "Can't be inspired to write about a girl who wears boots all the time."


I agree with that and that's the issue I have with Joss he thinks in his head he gets women its like he believes his own hype because Buffy was so great in 90's but if you compare Buffy's female lead to the newer media like Star Trek Discovery you realize how much of a rank amateur he is and his writing style has not changed or improved much in the decades since. Black Widow had great potential but after the Avengers movie he did hardly anything with her she kind of felt like she's there because he was going look I gave you a female character I'm so feminist so don't complain now.
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Postby Chuckman » Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:49 pm

It’s extremely telling that all the female Marvel characters see the vast majority of their development in the Cap movies. Black Widow in particular is like a different character between Avengers and Winter Soldier/Civil War.
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Postby Ray » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:32 pm

Mark Millar (Superman Red Son, Starlight, Kick-Ass, Superior) made this comment in an interview, where he tries to give his two cents on the whole DC/Marvel divide and why DC can't seem to get it's act together.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/mark-millar-has ... 1823282223

There's this one clip from the interview that I personally think may be the biggest reason.

People will slam me for this but I think the evidence is there. We’ve seen great directors, great writers and great actors, tonnes of money thrown at them, but these films aren’t working. I think they are all too far away from when they were created. Something feels a little old about them, kids look at these characters and they don’t feel that cool. Even Superman, I love Superman, but he belongs to an America that doesn’t exist anymore. He represents 20th Century America and I think he peaked then.
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Postby El Squibbonator » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:40 pm

You know, I think the guy's right. Superman more or less embodies America's innocence and optimism--two things that have been in short supply since the beginning of the 21st century and even more so today. That's also the reason Batman has displaced Superman as DC's most iconic character. Batman can be easily associated with the problems that are relevant today, such as corruption in the government and inner-city crime. The irony, of course, is that Superman was introduced as "the Man of Tomorrow", even though his writers must now struggle to make him fit in with contemporary values.
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Postby Guy Nacks » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:41 pm

The Snyder interpretation of Superman notwithstanding: Superman is a symbol of who Americans wish they were; Batman is a symbol of who we actually are.
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Postby Chuckman » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:45 pm

Superman's values are timeless. The fundamental argument of Batman vs Superman (the philosophical divide between the characters, not the movie) is "people are fundamentally good, and 'human nature' is a deeper truth beneath worldly concerns" and "people are inherently selfish and weak, and must be disciplined into submission".

Or in other words, the idea that everyone would be Superman if you freed them from physical needs and dangers as Superman is free from physical needs and dangers, contrasted the idea that everyone can become the Joker unless society and people of fantastic willpower like Batman force them not to. It is American religiosity interpreted through the lens of alien vs human in tights to secularize a theological argument but it is still fundamentally a theological debate.

Batman is more popular because of a general shift in American consciousness because of the changes in Batman himself. The smiling action scientist who has goofy adventures with the boy wonder has been entirely supplanted with a fascist icon of the protest work ethic just world fallacy nonsense that permeates our culture. Batman is morally superior because he brutal and rich and the Burton/Nolan/Snyder variations all touch on how fundamentally sick the worldview that the post-Neil Adams, Frank Miller version of Batman lionizes. Specifically: Burton lampoons it (if you pay attention to his version of Batman he paints Bruce as a fairly gormless social pariah nerd who relies entirely on his fancy suit and gadgets, probably one of the most broken version, Nolan asks serious questions about what Batman represents and whether his worldview is healthy (Begins is fairly straightforward but questions the morality of the character, TDK touches on how the militarization of Batman reflects the post-9/11 transformation of America into an armed camp tolerant of overreach and civil liberties abuses, and TDKR is all about how being Batman is a sickness and Batman's popularity is a sickness, using Bane as a mirror to hold up to the character and ultimately concluding by slapping the audience in the face with a direct comparison between his Batman and the Adam West version) and Snyder is just RAH RAH VIOLENCE IS FUN and is a complete tonal mess thanks to the constant flipping back and forth between "this is serious and people die and it's meaningful" and "you can totally drop this guy on his head and break his fucking neck and blow up this truck full of people and everybody is okay because we didn't show the bone shards".

Superman is too hard to bring to the screen. He's too hard for these people to grasp. He's more than John Carter by way of Moses envisioned by a couple of Jewish guys, he is a solar godform of hope and strength through compassion and empathy. The difficulty of bringing him to screen is that to make him commercially palatable (at least in the view of spineless hollywood creatures) you have to remove his fundamental quality:

Superman is a mirror and a light at the same time. When we look up at this shining being blasting a light into our souls, a perfect man who came from the sky to do only good, we cannot see anything less but our own imperfections burning in that light. We look at an ideal of a man with limitless power doing good works because a man who has been freed of fear and hunger has nothing left but good, and start making excuses for why no one would ever act like that. Do you know why? For the same reason sociopaths and narcissists do their damndest to convince everyone that their behavior is normal. Because we cannot answer the challenge of the perfect man. It's not a matter of being unable to reach his heights but no longer being able to aspire to them.

That's a hard sell to an American audience. They don't want a movie where their masculinity fantasy -Batman, who is more of a callous, violent, self-sufficient psycho than even James Bond- to be undermined by a truly good person. Because Batman is not good. There hasn't been a Batman on screen who was a good person since Adam West. Hence the repeated narrative thread in the post-1989 Batman films of Batman being caught in a cycle of violence. The movies themselves can't escape the conclusion that their Batman makes things worse and perpetuates a dark cycle that he could choose to break at any time.

That's why all the Superman criticisms that try to drag him down and stack the deck against him in these movies are bullshit. Batman and Superman are fundamentally the same:They are men who can do anything. People prefer the version of that which satisfies their dark inner urges.

They're the same character. They're both the Superman in the Nietzschean sense. They are the answer to "what is beyond man?" Except Batman is the cheap, lazy option without self reflection with a preference for hurting people that hurt us.

The on-screen character of Batman, especially in the post 9/11 world, evinces weakness, not power. He is not a powerful character. He is a sad little boy in a playsuit crying out for mommy and daddy. A perfect avatar of a sick nation that turns away from its spiritual void and instead blindly heaves consumerist junk into it while denying anything that might make them look back and see what they've become.

We are a captive culture utterly ruled and defined by our fear. We wallow in it, soak in it, pull it into every cell of our collective putrefying body and forget what it was to be brave. Superman isn't America's god, he's America's tombstone.

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:The Snyder interpretation of Superman notwithstanding: Superman is a symbol of who Americans wish they were; Batman is a symbol of who we actually are.


So, like, yeah. That.
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Postby Ray » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:04 am

Well then maybe it's time to let Superman go.

If the character really is doomed to never be done right. If American society has thrown Superman as a very Ideal to the wayside and rejected it. Then maybe it's time to let Superman go and focus on other DC characters who have a better shot of being done right than Superman. When Superman fails, the rest of the DC Universe surrounding him is dragged down with him because he's such an Icon. He's one of the pillars holding up the brand, when you mess up with him. Everything surrounding him falls apart with him. He's just too easy to mess up. Maybe if he wasn't around, we could focus on more relatable characters we could understand and humanize, as opposed to a Perfect God we can't ever hope to.

If it were up to me I would have kept him dead in JL and replaced him with Supergirl. She's arguably more popular and relatable as a character than he can ever hope to be again.

Edit: The DCEU WISHES It had a scene this emotional in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CunVFw0iJ3w

We look at an ideal of a man with limitless power doing good works because a man who has been freed of fear and hunger has nothing left but good, and start making excuses for why no one would ever act like that. Do you know why? For the same reason sociopaths and narcissists do their damndest to convince everyone that their behavior is normal. Because we cannot answer the challenge of the perfect man. It's not a matter of being unable to reach his heights but no longer being able to aspire to them.


We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one Chuck. Human beings are not inherently good. Even Superman would eventually have to admit that humanity has issues that even HE can't fix.

Edit:

Also, Chuck "Batman is not a good person"

What? Are you serious? The guy who STOPS criminals from hurting innocent people? The guy who WANTS to keep people from suffering the same BS he went through is the bad guy? You're just being vindictive at this point. Batman is not a fascist, he's the opposite of a Fascist. and I know you're going to get on my case for that. But there are evil people in the world, just as nasty if not nastier than the joker. and Batman puts a stop them. Saving lives from irredeemable monsters who can't be compromised or bargained with is a BAD thing?

Edit:

Superman isn't America's god, he's America's tombstone.


America isn't going anywhere. This is your bias showing.

Here's an example I feel I need to share with you.

The American Cowboy changed with the times. Why did he change? Because america GREW UP and changed. The values behind it changed, and so did the Character of the Cowboy.

The Cowboy in the media was originally portrayed as a righteous fighter for goodness and the American way, protecting the homestead from Desperados. The Cowboy in real life was an agent of American expansionism that stabbed Native Americans in the back, owned slaves, took Mexican land, and destroyed the environment. 'The American way' for the American Cowboy was 'my way or the highway' for everyone else.

New Westerns had to reflect this reality when they were made, because simply ignoring the reality of what America did was not the way for culture to go. America had to change, and it's heroes had to change with it. Exit John Waynes Indian Fighter and Rooster Cogburn. Enter Eastwoods The Outlaw Josey Wales and The Man With No Name. Exit Stagecoach and White hats and Black hats. Enter Clint Eastwoods Morally ambiguous cowboys and directly confronting the horrors of the era in films like Dances With Wolves and The Revenant.

The Cowboy was allowed to change with the times. Superman should be allowed to change too.

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Postby Chuckman » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:19 am

People who tell you that want to exploit your fears in order to control you, Ray. People often presume to see in others what they discover first within themselves.

A good Superman movie can easily be made. All you have to do is stick to the story and modernize the presentation. Man of Steel goes off the rails with a bunch of half-baked psuedoprofundity. I think we all know that I am an expert in half-baked psuedoprofundity so I know it when I see it.

Doomed planet. Desperate scientists. Last hope. Throw in some super feats, a Lois romance, and put Lex in a power suit. Just tell the story.

A great Superman story requires risks a studio would be not be willing to take as part of a blockbuster franchise. He would have to take stances. He would have to get political. He would have to say and do things that certain elements of our society would find offensive. He would have to be an exemplar of goodness. The movie would have to have people questioning their own core beliefs as they walk out of the theater. Warner Brothers isn't going to do that.

The problems with the DCCU come down to lack of focus, overall poor director selection, and trying to over-serialize in a medium best suited to standalone stories with self-contained plots with the continuity treated as no more than a sequel hook.

What? Are you serious? The guy who STOPS criminals from hurting innocent people? The guy who WANTS to keep people from suffering the same BS he went through is the bad guy? You're just being vindictive at this point. Batman is not a fascist, he's the opposite of a Fascist. and I know you're going to get on my case for that. But there are evil people in the world, just as nasty if not nastier than the joker. and Batman puts a stop them. Saving lives from irredeemable monsters who can't be compromised or bargained with is a BAD thing?


The character of Batman in Batman (1989) and its sequel, the Nolan Batman Trilogy, the DCCU, and the works of Frank Miller is some varying degree of fascist power fantasy, yes. As I said, Burton makes fun of it, Nolan meditates on it, and Snyder fuckin' loves it. They are all very explicitly not good people.

Batman makes more sense in a world where there's shapeshifting clay monsters and people with freeze guns. If you're a Batman in a Batman (1989) world or a Nolan world and you do Batman things you're undeniably an asshole. Either of those characters could do more good just through philanthropy.

Batman in the comics may be a philanthropist and clandestinely help petty criminals turn their lives around and all that, but in the popular non-comic-reader consciousness Batman has become a pop culture icon for everything that's problematic about superhero fiction.

There are many other versions of Batman that are not fascist, but none of these versions of the character is especially concerned with saving people. One is a neckbeard with fancy toys, one is emotionally stunted and self destructive, and one is a self-hating asshole. But he looks damn fine doing it.

Has anyone else seen Black Panther?
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Postby Ray » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:31 am

People often presume to see in others what they discover first within themselves.


Call the Kettle Black Chuck. That's about your speed.

A great Superman story requires risks a studio would be not be willing to take as part of a blockbuster franchise. He would have to take stances. He would have to get political. He would have to say and do things that certain elements of our society would find offensive. He would have to be an exemplar of goodness. The movie would have to have people questioning their own core beliefs as they walk out of the theater. Warner Brothers isn't going to do that.


Regardless of our different interpretations of the character. On THIS we could not agree more. The character has to be too many things to too many people, and because he stands for everything he stands for nothing. He has to be EVERYONES superhero, but can't be everyones Superhero because no matter which direction you take him. people are going to be angry.

popular non-comic-reader consciousness Batman has become a pop culture icon for everything that's problematic about superhero fiction.


I'm done. It's more than clear where this is coming from now. "Problematic"? AKA 'I don't personally care for it, it doesn't adhere to my personal beliefs' therefore it's bad.'

The way you talk about these characters you'd probably permanently bar anyone who disagrees even slightly with your interpretation of them from even touching them.
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:35 am

^

You've taken this argument very personally, Ray: you've inserted some personal attacks in there that I fail to see have any bearing on the discussion.

That being said...

...Batman, as he exists now, is character that exists because of failures in the system. The system has failed, so someone steps up to take charge. That is an inherently unrealistic power fantasy, because the implication behind it (and why Batman is so relatable) is that, "If I had the money/time/motivation/resources, I could also be Batman." And you can't, because we can look at the many 'Gotham Cities' around the world, and see what vigilante justice really looks like.

It's ugly.

That being said, the character of Batman comes about because rampant crime contributed to his parents' death, and has resulted in Gotham being a dangerous and twisted city. And yet, Batman's existence is what perpetuates the broken system: he doesn't fix the system that creates these criminals, he just goes out and beats them down, throws them in Blackgate or Arkham Asylum...rinse, wash, repeat. It makes for fun comic book stories, but it's a failure in terms of actually solving anything. And we need that, because if Batman actually gave a lasting and good contribution to Gotham, we'd run out of stories.

And I say this as a BATMAN FAN. He's my favorite DC superhero, but objectively: he is as much a contribution to Gotham's continued plight as is the criminals in the city. He doesn't use his resources to beef up the police services, contribute to an effective criminal justice system, enhance Gotham's education and business communities, he uses them for Batman: it's true that Bruce Wayne makes his charity contributions, but how much of his time and money is spent on gadgets and hunting hoodlums, as opposed to aggressively cleaning out the systems that break the city?

Nolan's Batman Begins actually contains a very subtle (and probably unintentional) jab at that. There's a theme of destroying the legacy of parents, or upholding them: Bruce Wayne is faced with an emotional crisis when Wayne Manor is destroyed, and it highlights to him that he's wrecked his father's legacy. Alfred insists that the legacy is more than a building, which is true...but Batman further destroys his father's legacy in destroying the monorail to save the day. There's no indications the monorail is rebuilt, but...that's a big deal. Studies indicate that public transportation is CRITICAL for people to leave poverty, because it provides cheap and easy transportation for people to travel from where they live to where they work.

Batman destroyed that. And the next two movies clearly demonstrate that the poor and wealthy divide (and the crime that such a thing breeds) has clearly grown.

Batman is a hero, yes, and he does good. Yes. He is also the equivalent of putting a bandage on a wound that needs a tourniquet: not the worst thing to do, but not the right thing, and ultimately more harmful than not.
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Postby Chuckman » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:40 pm

I wasn't talking about Batman as a whole, I was talking about his recent (i.e last 29 years) of film representations:

Burton era Batman is a deranged, physically unimpressive but intelligent social stunted 'neckbeard' (thought, obviously, he predates the neckbeard stereotype by some decades) who relies on his fancy suit and gadgets. Like the following incarnation, he is very much a "cycle of violence" character. ("You made me." "You made me first.") His version of the Joker very explicitly exists because of this version of Batman's own actions. This Batman is also uninterested in philanthropy or even social interaction, reclusive to the point that he's not maintaining the "Bruce Wayne is a loudmouthed idiot child playboy and could never be Batman" disguise. He's either Batman or enjoying the irony of being surrounded by people who are too stupid to guess he's Batman.

The sequel expands on the theme of vigilante justice worsening society found in the first film by explicitly making Batman a tragic figure, but one more of pathos that the operatic grandiosity found in the comic book incarnation. He's a sad pathetic man who meets a sad pathetic woman who could love each other if they'd let go of the past.

In that regard, Burton's version has more in common with one of Batman's literary antecedents, the Count of Monte Cristo, than the comic book Batman. Revenge is destructive.

Nolan era Batman is very clearly mentally ill. His entire arc is one of self destructive behavior. He's a man who can't take yes for an answer. He already has all the tools at his disposal to effect change (because he explicitly occupies a world of swat teams and mafiosi and not magic men and mud monsters and he has a shitload of money) but he seeks out the means of more visceral action; philanthropy and advocacy doesn't offer the physical satisfaction of giving a beatdown or terrifying a criminal. In the process, he delves too deep (as Gob wondrously explained) and destroyed his father's legacy, erasing him in the act of avenging him. He is a failure of a person.

In the sequel, The Dark Knight, Batman is more like his comic book incarnation but is still in a grounded world. He's a figure that make sense fighting ninja manbats or Poison Ivy cactus monsters but he hilariously outguns common criminals. In this sense he embodies the American prison-industrial complex that feeds on arming cops with military weapons and tactics to push junkies through a broken justice system into prisons where slavery is still explicitly legal by the terms of the Thirteenth Amendment. His archnemesis is less a comic book Joker and more a genius anarchist who based himself on the comic book Joker. Nolan takes the conceit of comics -we accept that Arkham and Blackgate are revolving doors thanks to the willing suspension of disbelief required for an ongoing continuity without constantly inventing new villains and running the well dry- and turns it on a commentary on vigilante violence. Bruce's quest for vengeance creates the problems he sets out to solve. This version of the character is not heroic, any more than a firebug firefighter who puts out fires he starts is heroic.

Finally in his third film Nolan translates his own fatigue with blockbusters, grief over Heath Ledger, and tiredness of the character after making a definitive statement on him, into an exploration of the cultural fixation on Batman and the American mythology of the vigilante. In an ultimately confused storyline which detours into Goyer kind-of-sort-of commenting on the Occupy movement at the time without really going anywhere with it, Nolan labors on how Batman is a pretty tired concept, doesn't fit into the real world, and what the audience really wants is Adam West, just brooding and in the rain.

Then you come to the Snyder version who is explicitly a bad person. His Batman is a severely broken individual. He is more Lex Luthor than Lex Luthor is in a movie where Lex is the nominal villain. Snyder takes up the theme of fatigue as if he were continuing Nolan's character in a kind of spiritual successor role. All his great battles are fought, his allies lost, and he lurks around the edges of a pre-arranged takedown of Superman that's set up and telegraphed like badly executed kayfabe in a wrestling ring with Bats as the Heel and Supes as the unlikeable Face.

That's why Justice League was so disappointing, it comes off -weird mix of Snydery ponderousness and Whedonesque jocularity and atrocious pacing and (internal) continuity aside- as a sequel to a series of films that don't exist, where they were all as good and effective as Wonder Woman and there were more of them. If Superman in the previous movies was more as he was in the brief clip at the beginning of JL and at the end of the movie after his obligatory brooding was out of the way I venture there'd be much less sturm and drang over these movies.

The thing about these interpretations is that they are all informed to some degree or another by Frank Miller (arguably, BvS is just an elaborate bit of mummery to bring the Superman/Batman fight from TDKR to the screen, context be damned) who wrote a series of comics where Batman is unabashedly, even proudly a fascist figure (and no, punching a muscular woman with swastikas on her tits (what the fuck, Frank?) doesn't make Batman anti-fascist, it's about more than symbols) who embodies several of the points of Eco's ur-fascism.

Short version: If you remove Batman from his context and strip him of his detective skills, pathos, and compassionate nature (To paraphrase Kingdom Come, Batman and Superman deep down share the same core values: They don't want to see anybody die) you leave him as a machismo fantasy of weapon and physical strenght obsessed class warfare against the poors and the weirdos.

TDKR/Burton/Nolan/Snyder Batman could do more by resisting his baser urges to do harm to the 'bad people' but lacks the courage.

Weakness. Not power. The true hero wins without fighting. That's why I liked Black Panther so much, probably more than Wonder Woman; T'challa in the movie is a hero who truly seeks to use violence and particularly killing only as a last resort. (As befitting a Ruling King)

Also if you reject the idea that human nature is either or good or not fundamentally evil you should reject Nolan's The Dark Knight, whose climactic scene makes a bold statement that bad people are not necessarily evil people.

In fact on deeper meditation it occurs to me that Nolan pretty much agrees with my view expression in the post above: His version of the Joker is not driven by wealth or greed or power, as he himself says, it's about sending a message. That message is revealed in the film itself when Batman figures him out: Like all bad people who lack the will to change, the Joker sees to convince everyone else they are as bad as him. The point of his capers isn't to make a joke or steal money or some kind of performance art, he wants to break everyone else and force them into an irrevocable act of self-interest driven evil that will make everyone into a monster like him. He wants everyone to be his co-conspirator. He is like the vampire who smashes all mirrors so that he doesn't have to look into his own emptiness.

That is why it's so hard for Warner Brothers to bring Superman to the screen: Because he is the light, the Solar Father, and only when the light is shining must we confront our shadow; living in darkness, (as Zizek might say, living with the man who has become an animal) we could come to believe there are no shadows at all.

I strongly suggest anyone interested in thinking about superheroes read Norman Spinrad's novel The Iron Dream.

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:19 pm

Going through each of those versions, it's really hard to add anything to something so thorough, but:

Burton's Batman is almost gleeful in how he kills people. Like, he kills a SHIT ton of people in the first movie (you know there was a lot of Joker minions in that Axis chemicals plant), and in the second one, he ups the on-screen body count by setting a thug on fire, blowing one up (actually smiling at that second one)...he relished the violence.

And Chuckman is right: there is something severely wrong with Nolan's Batman (but in a right way: it makes him an interesting character how broken he is). He doesn't enjoy being Batman, and if anything, he hates it. This is the only Batman you'll probably see where Bruce Wayne does not see himself as Batman: he sees himself as Bruce Wayne, and is trying to actively shed the Batman persona. His miserable as Batman, and yet he puts himself in increasingly desperate and punishing situations. He WANTS to be punished, as if he subconsciously feels he was always responsible for his parents' death and wants to pay for that.

As for Snyder's Batman...Jesus, where do we start? I think the best commentary on that is his '1 percent' speech. That is...stark, even for Batman. It's always assumed Batman thinks there's a possibility, even a minute one, that anyone (including himself) can go bad and wreak great destruction. He takes precautions on those suspicions, but reasonable ones. Snyder's Batman ACTS on those suspicions, making him a very hardline and I would say dangerous individual. It's the same mentality that if anyone has a 1 percent chance of breaking the law, you have to treat that 1 percent as a 100 percent. You can say that he was in extraneous circumstances, considering the power of Superman. But...was he really?

Cause he wasn't.
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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Chuckman » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:46 pm

If you look at this cowl from Batman Begins:

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You see that if you take Bruce out of the suit, the suit is screaming in terror. That's also why, although they later designed around it, the Burton and Nolan versions of the suit are so cumbersome and restrictive despite the character traditionally being lightly garbed to maximize his flexibility and mobility. Being Batman is restrictive, it's a burden. He's walking around in a pain fetish suit.

He never puts the old suit back on for story reasons, but in Nolan's TDK Bruce puts on a lighter, more flexible suit and visibly more comfortable in it right when he starts thinking his job is done and he might be able to find a way out of being Batman, but there's an undercurrent of Fox easing him deeper into his delusions. He'd be better off taking the suit off entirely but Fox has given him a better high.

Don't get me started on the psychosexual implications of Batfleck basically crawling into a bodybuilder when he puts on the suit.
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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby El Squibbonator » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:28 pm

From your perspective, I take it the best recent Batman movie would be the LEGO one?
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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Chuckman » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:48 pm

Mine? Yeah. If I had to rank them in order, considering all from '89 to present:

1. Batman Returns
2. The Lego Batman Movie
3. The Dark Knight
4. Batman (1989)
5. Batman Begins
6. The Dark Knight Rises
7. Batman and Robin
8. Justice League
9. Batman Forever
10. Batman vs. Superman

Batman (89) and The Dark Knight would make an interesting pairing to sit down and watch together since they are essentially wildly different takes on the same story.

As you can see here my biggest criteria for a good Batman presentation on film is, does it take the aspect of the character that it focuses on (Batman has too many sides to cover the entirety of his possibility in a two hour feature film) and do something fun or interesting with it? Or is it just violence/brooding/whatever porn?

I also did not place Suicide Squad on the list because Batman doesn't do anything there... but I should probably put it at 11 for having the dubious distinction of being only one of two (I think) where he strikes a woman in the face.

There's something weirdly fitting about Lego Batman turning him into a literal toy.

Since this is film and TV I should note that I consider the DCAU Batman to be the definitive Batman in any medium.
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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby cyharding » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:56 pm

^Then what are your views on Mask of the Phantasm? I didn't see it on your list.


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