Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby movieartman » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:24 am

View Original PostChuckman wrote:
SPOILER: Show
1 - One thing I didn't like in JL was how violent she was in the bank hostage rescue scene. She wasn't bad overall but it seemed weirdly out of character for her to use her smashy bracer move on a regular guy who she could just smack around. Judging how powerful that is, she should have leveled the floor of the building and turned that guy to paste.

2 - and then by emphasizing all the battles taking place in big empty spaces (Doomsday on a deserted island) in a way that's really ham handed.

SPOILER: Show
1 - Her bracelet smash isn't normally as powerful as it was at the end of WW, there it was elevated after having absorbed all the lightening Ares was throwing at her. Compare it to when she did it against Doomsday and it merely shoved him back, no energy waves or anything coming off them.

2 - I disagree in regards to Doomsday. It was never made clear that the island Doomsday landed on after being nuked was deserted only the port that Batman led him too and it was just a single exchange of dialogue.
Diana: "Why did you bring him back to the city?"
Bruce: "This port is abandoned, there is a weapon here that can kill it"
Its less convenient when you consider that this port was already specifically chosen ahead of time by Bruce as the place for his showdown with Clark.

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Chuckman » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:48 am

I'm not talking about the characters' decisions. The characters did those things because the writers wrote them that way, and the writers decided (in this movies that are supposed to be all about the stakes) to make sure the big battles take place in a deserted area to avoid casualties. It has the effect of making them tonally weird, because they flip back and forth from not caring about violence at all to Batman and Superman both doing shit that is absolutely inarguably fatal even with cartoon physics.

When you put the "let's make sure we fight where no one is around!" thing back in Justice League it connects back to Man of Steel which makes the jauntyness of JL even more jarring.

Also, the comparison is inevitable. In their big battles the Avengers are struggling to cover and protect millions of civilians and it's a big part of the battle sequences. In JL... they're having trouble watching out for four people in a truck.

i get it. I get the idea. I understand what they were trying to do, I'm explaining why it failed and many moviegoers found it jarring.

The truck stuff in JL for example feels like an example of writing by committee and clumsily shifting away from the "darker" (ugh) aspects of the previous films to a more lighthearted vision.

SPOILER: Show
The point isn't how strong her explodey bracers are it's that she hopelessly outmatched this guy and could have just walked over and booped him on the head. It's just an example of the kind of inconsistency that bothers me with these movies. It also seems wildly out of character for her. Diana isn't an angry vindictive character in these movies, she wouldn't make an unnecessary show of force like that. She enjoys fighting alien grunt monsters but she would look down on using her powers to smoosh some rando.


Unrelated random thought:

When Disney and Marvel bring the X-Men over they should have Hugh Jackman play Sabertooth.

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Ray » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:11 pm

As for the last thing... do you even read my posts? If they made the next movie a straight up silver/bronze age and went all in on the Fourth World and crazy weirdness.


I like I said. If DC did that. (Ergo Imitate marvel in terms of Silver age tone and strangeness) people would just give them crap for that too. You literally can't win no matter how hard you try.

Who do you think the mainstream audience is going to go see? Marvel is Coke? and if DC imitates Marvel they'll always be store brand imitation coke.

I don't want to see a JL movie where the bad guy makes sure he's in an abandoned nuclear site so no one gets hurt, I want global wars and alien invasions and shit that justifies every superhero on earth fighting back.


Because THAT went over well with the mainstream audience in MOS. Zod did Metropolis and knocked over buildings, yet people STILL blame Superman for that. You can't have any serious (well extremely serious) consequences in a superhero-verse.

and before you say Marvel. The Chitari and Loki were planning to come to earth with or without the avengers here. Hydra would have still existed and been manipulating human history even if Captain America never had. So nobody really blames the heroes.

Zod only came to earth because of Superman. So everyone blames him for what happened.

Fuck it, give me a Crisis on Infinite Earths movie.


A Crisis on infinite earth movie only works if you have the grander context of a larger DC universe/multiverse (that isn't as critically poorly received as this one). Without it? The whole enterprise doesn't make a lick of sense.

The last thing I want to see is more Batman in the rain. Hell, how about a Batman who's mentally well adjusted and a detective-scientist not a paranoid, violent lunatic?

I'm not in the mood to argue this point. So all I'll say is You're projecting.

Making a dark movie about Superman is like making a dark movie about Santa Claus. It's a ludicrous proposition.


Kingdom Come? Injustice? Camelot Falls? Whatever Happened To The American Way? Even Red Son (which was fairly upbeat relativly speaking) got pretty freaking dark at points with a Soviet Superman who lobotomized people. All those are critically acclaimed.

Apparently though. In regards to film. Nobody wants to see a Superman movie like that apparently.

There are plenty of ways to make a serious movie about hope,


and apparently you can't make a 'serious' movie about Superman without alienating people. Because the second you have Superman struggle. or make mistakes, or do anything but smile? For the majority of people he ceases to be Superman.

making a movie series where the deck is stacked against him and he's depressed and broody for no damn reason at all


A hero SHOULD have the deck stacked against him because otherwise? There aren't any stakes or tension.

Because being an omnipotent, all-powerful demigod who could end the world in a night if he had a bad day wouldn't have ANY mental issues or inner conflict or do anything other than smile at all? You can't have someone ALL POWERFUL and not have him deal with SOME issues! You can't put Superman in a realistic setting and just ignore all the implications his existence has.

I'm not saying go full Watchmen and have Superman be an emotionless automaton like Dr. Manhattan. But it would be nice to see a Superman movie explore deeper themes and not botch the execution. But with the failure of the last few movies. We're never going to get a serious Superman movie ever again. Because it's not what the public wants to see, and no matter how you approach it noones going to be happy.

and everyone else is conveniently an idiot to make him look worse is not an exploration of those ideas.


He's part of the race that destroyed metropolis. He operates without any authority overseeing his actions. He's a literal alien. People would react irrationally to his appearance.
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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Chuckman » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:23 pm

Yeah and the movies spend maybe five minutes on the reaction to him in the background.

I'd actually like a movie like that, that looks at how the real world would react to Superman. From Lois' perspective. From the perspective of actual people. I can tell you how it would go, though.

Look at what they did to the last perfect man who came from the sky to do only good.

I'm not projecting about the mental illness thing. There have been nine Batman movies since 1989. (Tim Burton's Batman films, the Schumacher sequels, three Nolan films, BvS, and Justice League. The Schumacher ones are the only ones that don't treat Batman as mentally ill (arguably... Batman sees a therapist in one of those!). The movies are pushing one, narrow, and frankly pretty facile interpretation of the character. "Lol Batman is a lunatic who beats up the 99%" is as idiotic and facile as "lol Batman is a pedo look at Robin" and it's been done. How about a fresh, yet serious, take on the character?

I haven't read all the stories you cited or played Injustice but Kingdom Come and Red Son are not dark. They have hopeful endings, especially Kingdom Come. They have dark content and put the characters through the ringer, yes, but Kingdom Come especially is about Superman returning to values of universal goodness in the face of extreme adversity.

I think a Crisis movie would actually work and be a great introduction to the universe. The best part is they can do it right now, nothing is stopping them. The problem with these movies is that they appear to take creative risks but actually don't. Justice League didn't retcon Superman into a savior figure, BvS ended with everyone loving him as a Jesus figure for something no one even saw him do, ten minutes after everybody hated him.

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Ray » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:32 am

I'd actually like a movie like that, that looks at how the real world would react to Superman. From Lois' perspective. From the perspective of actual people. I can tell you how it would go, though.

Look at what they did to the last perfect man who came from the sky to do only good.


Snyder WANTED MOS2 but the studio told him to make BVS. So he did. That movie was packed to the gills so nothing had a chance to breath or make sense.

Well they're never going to make a Superman movie like that Ever. Because they botched the last movie, so from here on out? Nothing but jokes.

If it's any consolation? MArk Millar (Writer of Red Son) was recently interviewed and talked about Matt Vaughns Idea for a superman film

http://filmexodus.com/mark-millar-revea ... an-sequel/

“It was actually a massive, uplifting, hopeful thing. There’s no point doing Superman unless you feel good. You should walk out of ‘Superman’ just feeling like a million dollars. You should feel great after a Superman film. The movie itself was going to be a big, vast fun epic. But Superman’s got to be a laugh, as well.”

He and I are massive Superman fans. I mean, we worship Richard Donner. We love the Christopher Reeve movies. He actually phoned me up a few months ago, and he said, ‘Hey, listen, DC, they’re very interested in me doing Man of Steel 2. Do you want to come in and do this?’ And I was like, ‘I’m exclusive to Netflix for years. We can’t even have that conversation.’ And he was like, ‘Oh, man. What’s the chances of this?’ And then he kind of drifted away. And he’s attached himself to a couple of things and all that. Y’know so, it’s one of those things that might, I mean – if somebody phones Matthew up and offers him enough money it could all change tomorrow.”


Not happy about this as I feel it's going to be a case of the pendulum swinging too far in the opposite direction.

Clearly the audience doesn't want a dark 'realistic' Superman. But I highly doubt Matthew Vaughn's over the top silver-age take on the character is going to be any better received given the indifference people had to Superman Returns which was about as much of an Homage to the Donner movies as you could get. Which from what Millar is saying in this interview Vaughn clearly wants to make

Lets see. . . .a director goes from working on the X-Men movies, to doing a Superman movie saying he wants to make it as much an Homage to the Donner movies as possible. We've been here before haven't we?

Furthermore. People got on Snyders case for making a Superman that was too violent and morally confused. Have you seen Vaughns other movies? With maybe the exception of First Class (and even that had it's moments) "violent and morally confused' is the perfect way to sum up his filmography.

@Chuckman
You should DEFINITELY read the Injustice Tie-Ins. They take the general plot of the game, and flesh it out.

and yes I know you're against the story of Superman going bad and taking over the world. Just read it. Trust me.

I haven't read all the stories you cited or played Injustice but Kingdom Come and Red Son are not dark.


Red Son Isn't Dark  SPOILER: Show
Image


I think I'll make a full post about Kingdom Come at a later date.
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
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Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Chuckman » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:55 pm

This is what your Superman movie should be like.

SPOILER: Show
"I'm writing an article about a tweet," Lois Lane said, digging her fingers into her temples.

Across from her, over facing desks in a cramped office that used to be a coffee shop called Brew La La, Jenny Olsen looked up from her own work, over a MacBook screen so dense with decals it looked like a reject from the latest MoMa exhibition. Twenty years Lois' junior, Jenny was 24 going on 19, showing hints of auburn roots in black hair with blue and green frosted tips. Each one of her fingernails was painted with a tiny, different symbol. A tiny Jolly Roger rested over the R key as she stopped.

"What?"

"Nothing," she muttered, returning to work.

Lois being Lois, she had pride of place on the blog's front page. Last night, the President of the United States apparently managed to send a tweet while a staffer was wrestling a phone away. His three in the morning message started off like one of his usual wee hours screeds but ended in a blob of gibberish, and Lois dutifully sat at her desk the next day, making phone calls, trying to drum up a psychiatrist to give her a quote suggesting the commander in chief must be losing his faculties. Six of them hung up on her before she managed to find one in the UK, who was also the author of "Crystal Healing and the Inner Soul".

Her soul could use some crystal healing right about now.

Six months ago, Lois had her pick of headlines... in the fashion section of the Daily Planet. She had a Midtown apartment, a mortgage on a vacation house, was dating a fashion designer who'd just branched out in his own startup, and had just put in an order for a Tesla. Then Lois got the idea that she was hungry. Four years at Emerson, a distinguished career, settling into middle age... she wanted an editorial spot, or she wanted to write real news, something important, something work framing one of her bylines, not a vapid fluff piece about a dress that looked like the designer got high and stared at a supermarket bouquet before sitting down to the drafting table.

So she went to the EIC, Perry White, and pitched herself.

"I'm hungry," she told him, "I need more than this. I don't want to write another story about a purse."

White rocked in his chair and eyed her. Lois felt alive again; it was this kind of spunk that got her the job in the first place. She acted like this a long, long time ago... in an interview with Perry's subordinate, a fashion editor now retired, named Jack Whittaker. She'd talked to Perry White himself maybe five times in her career and three of those were warnings about the sludge in the coffee pot that he didn't seem to acknowledge.

She went on for a few minutes, detailing her qualifications, her interests. She wanted to write something worthy.

So, Perry White said, "Go get me something worthy," and sent her out the door.

When she went back to him a month later, Perry White, Editor in Chief, looked over what she'd written, looked over Lois herself, and closed the manilla folder that held her work.

"You're the one that wanted to write something substantial," he said.

"That's right," she confirmed. "I know it's a risk, but I built my career on-"

"if you built your career on the equivalent of this, I need to call Jack up at his vacation house and ask what he was on when he hired you. You stormed into my office a month ago, I gave you the leeway you needed to write a worthwhile story, and you come back here carrying an article about some crackheads in Gotham City who say they saw a giant bat? What do you think this is, Miss Lane, the National Enquirer?"

It wasn't the disdain for her reporting that made her quit on the spot. She knew it was a risk. She knew she might have to lobby for it, explain how it wasn't really about this Bat-Man, that she didn't believe in anyway, that it was about how the despair and sheer desolation of the once-great industrial city that had collapsed into Crime Alley spawned an ideal of hope in the form of a weird, supernatural avenger of evil.

It was the way he emphasized miss, as if this mistake was a symptom of that unfortunate condition she was born with between her legs, that made her say, "I quit."

Actually, she said "fuck you", but that version sounded better in her head.

In the following six months, Antonio's startup folded after his former employer sued him for rights to designs he created while under a noncompete, she had to put the vacation home on the market, and she got behind on her rent. After moving in with a lovely gay hairdresser in the Village, she coasted on her savings, took a costly emergency bailout from her retirement fund, and moved from the stodgy hidebound Planet to the cutting edge of reporting: The most popular and acclaimed political blog in the United States, The Rotunda.

A fucking tweet.

Gritting her teeth, Lois tapped out the final few sentences of the three paragraph article she'd agonized over, knowing that as soon as she submitted it she'd see five emails from her editor demanding the story be finished already. She sent it off and closed her laptop, knowing even as she stuffed it in her bag that it would come back rejected, riddled with spelling errors.

"We don't publish last week's stories, Lane," the email would say. "These need to be done fast."

When she was hired on, it was a coup for the organization. Now she felt like a third wheel; Olsen was one of the more popular reporters for the blog and she was being scouted by actual newspapers for her hard-hitting reporting on the connections between Lex Luthor, Vladimir Putin, and some shady goings on in the Congo over some kind of rare earth metal.

Lois was beginning to realize she'd dragged her career here as fertilizer for the newborns growing into real journalists.

She waited until she was outside to seethe.

Metropolis, at least, was doing well, but there were more homeless here, and at least once a month one would follow her for a few blocks, often forcing her to duck into a bar or newsstand until he went away. Up the street an SPCA rented out a security robot from Lexcorp to shoo the homeless away from their doors, and Lois got something of a scoop by being the first to get a cell phone picture of it after it "killed itself" by accidentally diving into a fountain. A nice little puff piece ensued and kept her on the job.

More and more she was starting to think she should just quit. She had the money; when the sale on her vacation home closed, she'd be set for life, her mother liked to remind her, if she went back to where she belonged in North Caroline and left this city folk nonsense behind her.

That was certainly appealing: Living as a spinster in a small southern town, sipping mint juleps or whatever the hell they do down there. There was about as much chance of that happening as there was of her learning to fly.

It was getting dark, and Lois didn't feel like walking or catching the monorail. She hated the way Lexcorp was forcing all their tech down everyone's throat, the way the train announced her name in a cutsey voice after reading her face with hits heuristic artificial intelligence technology. It baffled her that people flipped out about government surveillance (for a week, anyway) but willingly kept Lex Luthor duly informed about their whereabouts, eating habits, sleep patterns, relationships, and a dozen other things she couldn't even think of.

As she waited for her Uber, Lois resolved she was going to write a story on that. Just what does Lexcorp do with all that info? The gears were turning in her head as she stepped into the cab.

Samir, who she'd never met before, offered her a sing-song hello, and she responded in kind without thinking. She was already tapping out ideas in Evernote on her phone. Lois Lane is back, baby, she thought to herself.

At this rate, Lois Lane would still be here in the morning. The can was a mistake, her fare would be obscene with all this traffic. The driver made the turn onto seventh, and Lois looked up from her phone, sighing a the daily sight of the archway carrying the monorail track over the broad avenue. It glinted wonderfully in the sun.

Half an hour later she was on Lincoln Avenue, running along the river. The monorail line stretched out over the choppy brown water, gleaming in the sunset. It was almost beautiful. She went back to her notes, only to look up again when her driver craned forward, shadowing his eyes with his hand.

A chill sense of dread flowed down her back. Something was wrong. No one was moving. The cars were all stopped dead. She'd felt this before, a kind of gut instinct, maybe an evolutionary adaptation to living in the city, packed into such a small space with almost twelve million other humans. Her phone almost jolted out of her hand.

Samir was only rolling at maybe three miles an hour in the traffic stoppage, but he slammed on the brakes anyway. It was that she noticed first. Then the flash, and then the shockwave, all in the skin of an instant.

The monorail bridge just exploded.

Lois -and everyone else- stepped out and ran to the sidewalk, to the railing overlooking the warehouses below. One third of the way out from the Metropolis side, the bridge had simply burst, torn apart by the blast. The ends were still streaming sparks and smoke, curled upwards with the tension relieved. Lois pulled out her phone, and started recording.

Then the hairs on the back of her neck lifted. She knew that sound. Screams erupted around her.

A train, going about thirty miles an hour as it rounded the seventh avenue curve, was heading for the breach in the bridge. The driver hit the brakes, but the train was eighteen cars, carrying over four hundred people on the express line from Metropolis to Gotham.

She knew, in sick dread, that it wasn't going to make it, and froze on the spot, holding up her phone as though watching it through the screen would make it all unreal, change it into a diversion to be watched on a flight home. It would just end and a cat video would pop up and she'd look over and see the bridge just fine, the train crossing it.

It's going to go into the river, she thought.

Movement from the corner of her eye dragged her attention away. The train was shrieking, an almost animal sound as the brakes fought, pointlessly, to stop hundreds of souls from plunging into the river. That somehow seemed unimportant. What mattered was the man -a quite ordinary man, dressed in khaki pants, a button down shirt, and sneakers- was standing on the railing, looking at the bridge. It seemed odd to her that he should balance on the round rail so easily, so lightly, like a trapeze artist at rest before an incredible stunt. Or a man on the cusp of a decision. Almost without thinking she tapped the snap button, saving one frame of the video as a photograph.

The train would hit the river in less than thirty seconds. It was not for that Lois Lane screamed, but for the seemingly random man stepping off the railing- to a drop of at least forty feet, and probably death. She followed him with her camera. Then she caught the blur as something leapt, bounding easily from the industrial avenue below, leaping across hundreds of yards in a single bound.

Someone, not her but someone, a lone solitary voice, screamed about a man on the tracks and Lois swung her phone wildly, focusing on the water for a moment as she zoomed it in as far as it would go, before catching the blurry sight of a man running down the monorail track. The questions that formed in her mind felt dull, slow. How does he not fall? It was the man from the railing, she realized, running towards the train.

The monorail had slowed to twenty miles an hour, still too fast, still no hope of stopping. A wave of gasps and screams rolled over Lois as the man running on the track hit the rounded nose of the monorail train and...

Slowed it.

Metal screeched. Sparks flew, and the train jolted violently, grinding into the track.

It's not possible, she thought, her mind racing. This is not possible.

The train was coming to a halt. It was almost there. It stopped.

Most of it. The back half was not going to give up its momentum so easily and, four cars back, the cars tore from the tracks, bucked like a raging animal, and lifted. Lois swung around, and realized that when the train car landed on her her phone would be smashed and no one would ever see her final record. Her mom would just hear, a few days from now after frantic calls to Lois' phone and everyone she knew, that her daughter died in a train accident.

She felt oddly peaceful. Without that she wouldn't have recorded the man on the tracks leaping again, a blur hurtling through the air from the front of the train to land on the street, rise again in a jump.

The descending cars stopped, their movement arrested. Lois's finally let the phone drop, only for a moment before snapping it up again. She remembered it could snap photos while recording video, and began taking them wildly.

His back was to her. His hands braced against the folded metal of the train cars. His feet, though planted solidly, stood only on empty air. Lois sucked in a breath, mesmerized, transfixed. This could not be happening.

He rose, and in his hands the train cars rose too, lifting, lifting, screeching as the settled back on the track. The train groaned and lurched, but once it settled the t-shaped rail held it in place.

The man in front of her continued to rise, until he was too far away and she finally hit the stop button on her phone's camera.

Clutching it to her, Lois Lane, the reporter, obeyed her instincts first. She was uploading it to her own Twitter account, and when it uploaded she'd call her boss, have him retweet. Then she looked around, and began recording again.

There were sirens, and eerily, these were the only sounds. She'd never been in such a sizeable city crowd that was so quiet, didn't think it was possible. The sounds were faint, few and muffled by the press of bodies. A few people, she heard, were laughing. A few cried. Most people were silent.

It dawned on her why, and Lois Lane began silently weeping with them.

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Ray » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:21 am

View Original PostChuckman wrote:This is what your Superman movie should be like.

SPOILER: Show
"I'm writing an article about a tweet," Lois Lane said, digging her fingers into her temples.

Across from her, over facing desks in a cramped office that used to be a coffee shop called Brew La La, Jenny Olsen looked up from her own work, over a MacBook screen so dense with decals it looked like a reject from the latest MoMa exhibition. Twenty years Lois' junior, Jenny was 24 going on 19, showing hints of auburn roots in black hair with blue and green frosted tips. Each one of her fingernails was painted with a tiny, different symbol. A tiny Jolly Roger rested over the R key as she stopped.

"What?"

"Nothing," she muttered, returning to work.

Lois being Lois, she had pride of place on the blog's front page. Last night, the President of the United States apparently managed to send a tweet while a staffer was wrestling a phone away. His three in the morning message started off like one of his usual wee hours screeds but ended in a blob of gibberish, and Lois dutifully sat at her desk the next day, making phone calls, trying to drum up a psychiatrist to give her a quote suggesting the commander in chief must be losing his faculties. Six of them hung up on her before she managed to find one in the UK, who was also the author of "Crystal Healing and the Inner Soul".

Her soul could use some crystal healing right about now.

Six months ago, Lois had her pick of headlines... in the fashion section of the Daily Planet. She had a Midtown apartment, a mortgage on a vacation house, was dating a fashion designer who'd just branched out in his own startup, and had just put in an order for a Tesla. Then Lois got the idea that she was hungry. Four years at Emerson, a distinguished career, settling into middle age... she wanted an editorial spot, or she wanted to write real news, something important, something work framing one of her bylines, not a vapid fluff piece about a dress that looked like the designer got high and stared at a supermarket bouquet before sitting down to the drafting table.

So she went to the EIC, Perry White, and pitched herself.

"I'm hungry," she told him, "I need more than this. I don't want to write another story about a purse."

White rocked in his chair and eyed her. Lois felt alive again; it was this kind of spunk that got her the job in the first place. She acted like this a long, long time ago... in an interview with Perry's subordinate, a fashion editor now retired, named Jack Whittaker. She'd talked to Perry White himself maybe five times in her career and three of those were warnings about the sludge in the coffee pot that he didn't seem to acknowledge.

She went on for a few minutes, detailing her qualifications, her interests. She wanted to write something worthy.

So, Perry White said, "Go get me something worthy," and sent her out the door.

When she went back to him a month later, Perry White, Editor in Chief, looked over what she'd written, looked over Lois herself, and closed the manilla folder that held her work.

"You're the one that wanted to write something substantial," he said.

"That's right," she confirmed. "I know it's a risk, but I built my career on-"

"if you built your career on the equivalent of this, I need to call Jack up at his vacation house and ask what he was on when he hired you. You stormed into my office a month ago, I gave you the leeway you needed to write a worthwhile story, and you come back here carrying an article about some crackheads in Gotham City who say they saw a giant bat? What do you think this is, Miss Lane, the National Enquirer?"

It wasn't the disdain for her reporting that made her quit on the spot. She knew it was a risk. She knew she might have to lobby for it, explain how it wasn't really about this Bat-Man, that she didn't believe in anyway, that it was about how the despair and sheer desolation of the once-great industrial city that had collapsed into Crime Alley spawned an ideal of hope in the form of a weird, supernatural avenger of evil.

It was the way he emphasized miss, as if this mistake was a symptom of that unfortunate condition she was born with between her legs, that made her say, "I quit."

Actually, she said "fuck you", but that version sounded better in her head.

In the following six months, Antonio's startup folded after his former employer sued him for rights to designs he created while under a noncompete, she had to put the vacation home on the market, and she got behind on her rent. After moving in with a lovely gay hairdresser in the Village, she coasted on her savings, took a costly emergency bailout from her retirement fund, and moved from the stodgy hidebound Planet to the cutting edge of reporting: The most popular and acclaimed political blog in the United States, The Rotunda.

A fucking tweet.

Gritting her teeth, Lois tapped out the final few sentences of the three paragraph article she'd agonized over, knowing that as soon as she submitted it she'd see five emails from her editor demanding the story be finished already. She sent it off and closed her laptop, knowing even as she stuffed it in her bag that it would come back rejected, riddled with spelling errors.

"We don't publish last week's stories, Lane," the email would say. "These need to be done fast."

When she was hired on, it was a coup for the organization. Now she felt like a third wheel; Olsen was one of the more popular reporters for the blog and she was being scouted by actual newspapers for her hard-hitting reporting on the connections between Lex Luthor, Vladimir Putin, and some shady goings on in the Congo over some kind of rare earth metal.

Lois was beginning to realize she'd dragged her career here as fertilizer for the newborns growing into real journalists.

She waited until she was outside to seethe.

Metropolis, at least, was doing well, but there were more homeless here, and at least once a month one would follow her for a few blocks, often forcing her to duck into a bar or newsstand until he went away. Up the street an SPCA rented out a security robot from Lexcorp to shoo the homeless away from their doors, and Lois got something of a scoop by being the first to get a cell phone picture of it after it "killed itself" by accidentally diving into a fountain. A nice little puff piece ensued and kept her on the job.

More and more she was starting to think she should just quit. She had the money; when the sale on her vacation home closed, she'd be set for life, her mother liked to remind her, if she went back to where she belonged in North Caroline and left this city folk nonsense behind her.

That was certainly appealing: Living as a spinster in a small southern town, sipping mint juleps or whatever the hell they do down there. There was about as much chance of that happening as there was of her learning to fly.

It was getting dark, and Lois didn't feel like walking or catching the monorail. She hated the way Lexcorp was forcing all their tech down everyone's throat, the way the train announced her name in a cutsey voice after reading her face with hits heuristic artificial intelligence technology. It baffled her that people flipped out about government surveillance (for a week, anyway) but willingly kept Lex Luthor duly informed about their whereabouts, eating habits, sleep patterns, relationships, and a dozen other things she couldn't even think of.

As she waited for her Uber, Lois resolved she was going to write a story on that. Just what does Lexcorp do with all that info? The gears were turning in her head as she stepped into the cab.

Samir, who she'd never met before, offered her a sing-song hello, and she responded in kind without thinking. She was already tapping out ideas in Evernote on her phone. Lois Lane is back, baby, she thought to herself.

At this rate, Lois Lane would still be here in the morning. The can was a mistake, her fare would be obscene with all this traffic. The driver made the turn onto seventh, and Lois looked up from her phone, sighing a the daily sight of the archway carrying the monorail track over the broad avenue. It glinted wonderfully in the sun.

Half an hour later she was on Lincoln Avenue, running along the river. The monorail line stretched out over the choppy brown water, gleaming in the sunset. It was almost beautiful. She went back to her notes, only to look up again when her driver craned forward, shadowing his eyes with his hand.

A chill sense of dread flowed down her back. Something was wrong. No one was moving. The cars were all stopped dead. She'd felt this before, a kind of gut instinct, maybe an evolutionary adaptation to living in the city, packed into such a small space with almost twelve million other humans. Her phone almost jolted out of her hand.

Samir was only rolling at maybe three miles an hour in the traffic stoppage, but he slammed on the brakes anyway. It was that she noticed first. Then the flash, and then the shockwave, all in the skin of an instant.

The monorail bridge just exploded.

Lois -and everyone else- stepped out and ran to the sidewalk, to the railing overlooking the warehouses below. One third of the way out from the Metropolis side, the bridge had simply burst, torn apart by the blast. The ends were still streaming sparks and smoke, curled upwards with the tension relieved. Lois pulled out her phone, and started recording.

Then the hairs on the back of her neck lifted. She knew that sound. Screams erupted around her.

A train, going about thirty miles an hour as it rounded the seventh avenue curve, was heading for the breach in the bridge. The driver hit the brakes, but the train was eighteen cars, carrying over four hundred people on the express line from Metropolis to Gotham.

She knew, in sick dread, that it wasn't going to make it, and froze on the spot, holding up her phone as though watching it through the screen would make it all unreal, change it into a diversion to be watched on a flight home. It would just end and a cat video would pop up and she'd look over and see the bridge just fine, the train crossing it.

It's going to go into the river, she thought.

Movement from the corner of her eye dragged her attention away. The train was shrieking, an almost animal sound as the brakes fought, pointlessly, to stop hundreds of souls from plunging into the river. That somehow seemed unimportant. What mattered was the man -a quite ordinary man, dressed in khaki pants, a button down shirt, and sneakers- was standing on the railing, looking at the bridge. It seemed odd to her that he should balance on the round rail so easily, so lightly, like a trapeze artist at rest before an incredible stunt. Or a man on the cusp of a decision. Almost without thinking she tapped the snap button, saving one frame of the video as a photograph.

The train would hit the river in less than thirty seconds. It was not for that Lois Lane screamed, but for the seemingly random man stepping off the railing- to a drop of at least forty feet, and probably death. She followed him with her camera. Then she caught the blur as something leapt, bounding easily from the industrial avenue below, leaping across hundreds of yards in a single bound.

Someone, not her but someone, a lone solitary voice, screamed about a man on the tracks and Lois swung her phone wildly, focusing on the water for a moment as she zoomed it in as far as it would go, before catching the blurry sight of a man running down the monorail track. The questions that formed in her mind felt dull, slow. How does he not fall? It was the man from the railing, she realized, running towards the train.

The monorail had slowed to twenty miles an hour, still too fast, still no hope of stopping. A wave of gasps and screams rolled over Lois as the man running on the track hit the rounded nose of the monorail train and...

Slowed it.

Metal screeched. Sparks flew, and the train jolted violently, grinding into the track.

It's not possible, she thought, her mind racing. This is not possible.

The train was coming to a halt. It was almost there. It stopped.

Most of it. The back half was not going to give up its momentum so easily and, four cars back, the cars tore from the tracks, bucked like a raging animal, and lifted. Lois swung around, and realized that when the train car landed on her her phone would be smashed and no one would ever see her final record. Her mom would just hear, a few days from now after frantic calls to Lois' phone and everyone she knew, that her daughter died in a train accident.

She felt oddly peaceful. Without that she wouldn't have recorded the man on the tracks leaping again, a blur hurtling through the air from the front of the train to land on the street, rise again in a jump.

The descending cars stopped, their movement arrested. Lois's finally let the phone drop, only for a moment before snapping it up again. She remembered it could snap photos while recording video, and began taking them wildly.

His back was to her. His hands braced against the folded metal of the train cars. His feet, though planted solidly, stood only on empty air. Lois sucked in a breath, mesmerized, transfixed. This could not be happening.

He rose, and in his hands the train cars rose too, lifting, lifting, screeching as the settled back on the track. The train groaned and lurched, but once it settled the t-shaped rail held it in place.

The man in front of her continued to rise, until he was too far away and she finally hit the stop button on her phone's camera.

Clutching it to her, Lois Lane, the reporter, obeyed her instincts first. She was uploading it to her own Twitter account, and when it uploaded she'd call her boss, have him retweet. Then she looked around, and began recording again.

There were sirens, and eerily, these were the only sounds. She'd never been in such a sizeable city crowd that was so quiet, didn't think it was possible. The sounds were faint, few and muffled by the press of bodies. A few people, she heard, were laughing. A few cried. Most people were silent.

It dawned on her why, and Lois Lane began silently weeping with them.



That was actually pretty decent Chuck. Did you write this yourself?

They had something like this in Superman Returns with the Space Plane. Sadly that movie peaked too Early.
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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Chuckman » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:15 am

Yes.

"Superman saves a plane" has been overdone.

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:33 am

The debate as to what is "Dark" and what isn't seems to be mostly semantics. Some seem to be okay with calling harsh shadows and edgy content "dark," while others insist that truly dark material will also have a dark message to accompany its edgy material. For example, compare the differences between The Watchmen and The Killing Joke. The Watchmen is a truly dark story that leads to a somewhat nihilistic message about humanity. The Killing Joke, on the other hand, is just shock value for its own sake.

I would say that the Chris Nolan Dark Knight trilogy isn't actually dark. It's aesthetics are based more in realism, sure. There's a wonderful and delicate balance between classic Neo Italian Realism and German Expressionism throughout those movies, but none of it's "Dark™." People only mistook it for being dark because Heath Ledger's performance as the Joker was so goddamn frightening, and that only lasted for one out of the three movies. Heck, even the dialogue in the movies plainly state that they're not about how "Dark" their universe it, but rather how it's "darkest before dawn."

With the DCCU, rather than aesthetics of Realism and Expressionism being used to convey a message of hope, as Nolan did in The Dark Knight Trilogy, Snyder instead tries to use an "Edgy™" aesthetic to tell stories about nihilism and hopelessness. Superman can "S Stands For Hope" all he wants in MoS, but at the end of the day that "Hope" inadvertently smashed itself into billions of dollars of collateral damage and thousands of lives lost. Instead of being "The hero [the city] deserves, but not the one it needs right now," Superman is "The hero that accidentally kills people, and no one is sure what to do about it." It's truly dark, but Snyder and Goyer don't have the same skill as Alan Moore when it comes to these kinds of topics. (That lack of narrative skill should have been more obvious is Snyder's literal adaptation of Moore's The Watchmen, but I digress.)

This message is hastily backtracked in BvS, with Superman trying to be a symbol for pure hope while Batman is busy drowning in hopelessness. It's a movie that honestly makes more thematic sense if it pretended to be a sequel to both Batman Returns and Superman Returns instead. The confusion is made more so by Snyder's insistence on cranking up the "Edgy™" aesthetics up to 11. The movie is now about "Edgy™ Hope" vs "Edgy™ Hopelessness," and "Edgy™ Hope" literally dies at the end of the movie.

SSquad is about "Edgy™ Edginess," and how "It's not just a phase, dad" because "Edgy™ Hope" died in the last movie.

Wonder Woman was an actual goddamn superhero movie, for once. Someone hopeful comes onto the scene and causes other people to also become reasonable and realistically hopeful themselves.

Justice League seems to be drenched in an identity crisis, where it doesn't know whether or not to trust its cherry-picked focus group where they admitted to liking "Movie With Edge™ To Them" only after being lead by the prosecution and not wanting to look like punks in from of their peers, or if that actual hopeful vibe from Wonder Woman wasn't the more successful way to go after all.

I say flush it all down the toilet and start fresh. If the second movie in the franchise tried to recon the first movie to be something other than what it was, that's clear evidence that you have a real stinker on your hands as far as a connected narrative goes, at least within terms of thematics. Say what you will about the loose continuity of the Showa Era Godzilla movies, but they were thematically consistent with one another, and those themes naturally progressed, adapted, and matured as the series when on. (For the most part, anyway.) In a series of movies that all claim to be connected, I care more about thematic and tonal consistency than I do the details of their continuity.

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Chuckman » Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:05 pm

Again, I don't see the point of an incompetent twerp Superman movie where he accidentally kills lots of people, but a movie about how Superman would fit into a modern world could be very, very good.

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Ray » Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:13 pm

They're rebooting with effing Flashpoint anyway. Much like with the new 52, the problem is they did not want to COMMIT. I would have almost preferred whatever Snyder had in mind with Evil Superman and post apocalyptic batman to what we actually got.

Also, Snyder wanted to make a Standalone MOS2. But WB executives. Panicking. Made him put batman in BVS which caused a whole buttload of issues we're never going to get over. I guarantee after JL? Aquaman is going to bomb. Even if it is a good movie.

We had a once in a lifetime chance to have a DC universe on par with Marvel. Thanks to whatever issue happened behind the scenes, too much control, too little, meddling executives, etc. We're NEVER going to get that. That train left the station. There's no hope for DC to EVER match Marvel. It's over.

and lets be honest. If Superman actually did exist? It would be a net negative thing for humanity. Lex Luthor in Red Son outright said.

"Do you realize what your meddling has done Superman? Do you realize now just what kind of a socio-political economic disaster you've caused?"

At this point? JUST MAKE SUPERMAN THE BAD GUY. We've been trying to make the kind optimistic hopeful superman work and it hasn't worked ONCE. The second you put Superman in the real world? He CEASES TO BE SUPERMAN. You can't have a Superman as he is in the comic books exist in a realistic setting. Full stop. Either he would go mad from the persecution and fear humanity has for him and conquer/destroy us. Or he'd leave the earth for greener pastures to be with people more like him and/or to protect the human race fromhim. There are only two ways you can take Superman in a realistic setting.

Make Superman the bad guy, build the entire universe around that concept like Injustice did. Don't pussy out of it. because you can't make Superman work in 2017. The world doesn't want a man from the sky who does only good. It can't believe in that anymore.
Last edited by Ray on Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Chuckman » Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:30 pm

I think where we differ ultimately is that: all that stuff about a light to show the way and joining him in the sun and whatnot? I believe it. I believe people are fundamentally good and the goodness in the world is worth fighting for.

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:04 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:At this point? JUST MAKE SUPERMAN THE BAD GUY. We've been trying to make the kind optimistic hopeful superman work and it hasn't worked ONCE. The second you put Superman in the real world? He CEASES TO BE SUPERMAN. You can't have a Superman as he is in the comic books exist in a realistic setting. Full stop. Either he would go mad from the persecution and fear humanity has for him and conquer/destroy us. Or he'd leave the earth for greener pastures to be with people more like him. There are only two ways you can take Superman in a realistic setting.

Make Superman the bad guy, build the entire universe around that concept like Injustice did. Don't pussy out of it. because you can't make Superman work in 2017. The world doesn't want a man from the sky who does only good. It can't believe in that anymore.

Why do you insist that audiences won’t accept a purely good Superman whe they’ve already accepted a purely good Wonder Woman? The success of the only descent DCCU movie actively and undeniably negates this whole contrarian mindset you have with the very basic concept of superheroes.

I mean, if we don’t want to make superhero movies anymore, then just don’t make any Superman or Wonder Woman movies anymore either. Noir genres are amazing starting points for dark and shady protagonists. Let’s just do that instead.

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Ray » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:43 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:I think where we differ ultimately is that: all that stuff about a light to show the way and joining him in the sun and whatnot? I believe it. I believe people are fundamentally good and the goodness in the world is worth fighting for.


I believe it too. I just go about it in a different way. I don't think that message is conductive to a world where a Literal alien Demigod exists.

They tried that. It didn't work. and the primary reason it didn't work is because they went for a tone of realism as opposed to just being (relatively speaking) campy and goofy like Marvel is. Yes I know the comparison is unfair given DC has to play catchup. But at this point i'm too upset to care.

Being a 'light to show the way' makes sense. In a world where the light can shine. But in a world tonally like Dark Knight or Watchmen. The light can never shine, because it acknowledges that human beings are flawed. The second you acknowledge that? You can't make a Superman movie where he's the Superman people are familiar with.

Superman reveals himself to the human race today. What happens? Well first the religious wars given his mere existence proves Christianity, Judaism. and Islam wrong (Don't even get me started on how Wonder Womans Greek Pantheon, or Grodds Gorilla City would affect the worlds religions). The Church would denounce him as the Anti-Christ. People would try to blow him up, and hurt innocent people to draw him out to try and kill him for the sake of 'saving humanity from the alien'.

Then there's the political issues resulting from his presence. Not to mention the constant 24/7 media over-analysis of his every action and putting the most negative spin possible on it. (Hell that's something Henry Cavill mentioned in several interviews.) Holding him up to an impossible standard he can NEVER hope to meet, even if he was a decent person.

Superman saves political prisoners from an unfair execution in a place like North Korea or China? He's 'interfering with the affairs of Sovereign nations'.

Superman fights a Supervillain and saves the world? The media spins it so that HE was the cause of the damage to the city, refusing to see the big picture that the entire human race would be dead w/o him.

Superman refuses to help the US in a war? People blame him for people dying, claiming he's condoning evil through inaction.

You don't think Donald Trump would get on Superman's case for not helping the US government out in the Middle East and North Korea? You don't think any number of political commentators would call him a coward for not taking a stance on things like Immigration or Abortion or helping the US become a world power again? Governments of the would probably enact censorship laws to keep people from saying anything negative about him online out of fear he might do something to them when or if he snapped.

Either Tyranny caused by people out of fear of the Superman. Or tyranny caused by Superman.
Image

It's impossible to make a Superman movie that takes place in a real world setting, or something close to it. If you want to make a Superman movie work, you have to go all out with the silver age insanity. You can't have stakes or tension, but you CAN have comedy. Comedy is really something that works. Don't make the story about themes, about justice, or how Superman is too powerful and threatening to mankind like would happen IRL, or a Superman in a world anywhere close to reality.

He's a cartoon, let him be a cartoon. Let him wear a Sombrero and fight a Brainiac who looks like a guy in green facepaint. Let him punch out an alien bug monster. Let the buildings be like giant Lego bricks that Superman moves out of the way right before Zod can smash them. Because a Superman movie with consequences for Superman isn't a Superman movie.

Image

Genndy Tartakovsky was actually in talks to direct an animated Superman TV film for DC in that style a while back. Sadly that didn't go anywhere. In hindsight I probably would have preferred that.

A world as messed up as ours wouldn't be REDEEMED by Superman. The real world would destroy Superman. Either by mentally breaking him through his inability to do anything, or actually physically killing him.

At this point I wouldn't be Surprised if Marvel Makes a Sentry movie, or Paramount makes an Invincible movie that gives the Audience the Superman movie it wants. Leaving DC and all it's characters and legacy out of the cultural conversation forever.

Why do you insist that audiences won’t accept a purely good Superman whe they’ve already accepted a purely good Wonder Woman?


Wonder woman actually IS a god from a fantastic world. It makes sense for her. It doesn't make sense for Superman given he grew up in 1990's Kansas (depending on the incarnation) and lived in fear of hurting other people if he made a mistake.

On top of that? I don't think Wondy has to worry about messing up on the level of something like THIS. Because she's not OP like Superman is.
SPOILER: Show
Image


Camelot Falls by Busiek BTW. One of my favorite Superman stories

Nobody would be able to handle the stress of Superman's OP powers, and would almost certainly snap and wipe humanity out at some point. And there isn't a damn thing we could do about it.

Superheroes CAN work. SuperMAN can't.
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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Chuckman » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:56 am

Had this rattling around in my head anyway.

snippet  SPOILER: Show
Lois jumped, her breath catching as only her catlike agility and the law of surface tension kept a dangerous amount of hemp milk hot cocoa from destroying her MacBook. Since The Rotunda let her go after she refused to drop the Superman story, her battered, road-worn laptop became as precious as gold. Thinking the tapping sound over her shoulder was a bird thumping off the glass, she rolled her shoulders and continued typing. Jenny back at the Rotunda was keeping her filled in on the Lexcorp Congo story. Her sources were telling her Luthor was having some trouble importing a sample of the mineral back into the country, though it was still up in the air what he wanted it for- whatever it was, it had to be something that the eccentric rock star of silicon valley considered as important as his space probes and science fiction mass transit systems; he was spending enough on it.

Then the tapping sound came again, more insistent this time, and Lois looked up. Before she could turn around, the taps thumped out "Shave and a Hair Cut".

This time the cup and cocoa did spill from her hands.

Holy shit, she thought. Holy shit, oh my God.

It's him.

Outside her window.

Fresh faced, unkempt brown hair, blue eyes. Handsome, but boy next door handsome, not rock star handsome. He tapped on the window again and looked down at her spilled drink. His voice was muffled.

"Sorry."

"Can you hear me?" she shot back.

He nodded.

"I can't open these windows. Can you meet me on the roof?"

He nodded again, and she watched his feet pass the window.

Lois quickly dumped her computer on her sofa- on the dry part- and grabbed her keys, and her tape recorder. In a hurry, she fumbled with the door lock to the apartment, and when it wouldn't catch, left it. Bolting through the stairwell door, she ran up, her thighs on fire by the time she topped the fifth floor and banged against the roof access door, wondering for a brief moment what would happen if the door were locked.

It wasn't. It swung open at the impact and she found herself standing there on the roof. He was perched on the low brick wall that ran around the edge, looking out at the city skyline. The wind picked up a little, caught his cape. It swirled around him as he turned and took a casual step down.

The first thing that struck her, that she would headline her article with, was that he moved with an easy, imperfect grace. There was no puffed-chest bravado, nor any swagger. He moved in the way that only a man with complete confidence could, and it was eerily intoxicating.

"Are you alright, miss Lane?" he asked her

She blinked a few times.

"Um, what?"

"Your heart is beating very fast."

:Lois Lane blurted, "How do you know?"

The Superman looked at her and said, "I can see it."

She worked her mouth silently, while he waited patiently.

"You can... you can see it? You mean you can see through me?"

Like a schoolboy caught peeping at the answers in the back of the math textbook, just like that as a matter of fact, he scratched at the back of his head and looked at the floor.

"I heard it first. I was just checking."

"I just want to be sure I heard you correctly," Lois said, moving closer. "You can look at me and see my heart. In my chest."

"Yes," he said. "I wouldn't, I mean I could but I wasn't-"

"What are you?"

His expression deflated for a second- she could tell he expected the question, but it still hurt. She felt a terrible twist in her own stomach.

"Why don't we sit down," she said, "and you can tell me."

He nodded, visibly relieved, and moved to sit on the wall. Lois sat beside him, reminding herself that it was a good three feet wide and she'd have to try to pitch herself over the edge. She was in no danger of falling. It wasn't until she touched her lips that she realized she was trying to puff a phantom cigarette, a habit she thought was gone by now.

"You used to smoke?"

She nodded.

"Your lungs are clear."

"Can you please not do that?"

"Sorry," he said, looking down, "Right." Then he pinched the bridge of his nose. "This isn't going well."

"Let's start over. I'm Lois Lane. You are?"

"Clark," he said.

Lois stared at him.

"My name is-"

"Stop," she said. "I can't call you Clark. I really don't think that's a good idea."

"Why?"

"I just don't."

He scrubbed his fingers through his hair and shrugged. "So where do I start?"

"The question everyone wants to know is who are you, and why are you here, and why are you doing this?"

"That's three questions," he said.

She looked at him flatly. He smirked at her.

"Little joke?"

She gave a little laugh. That seemed to satisfy him.

"Alright. So where to start. I grew up in Kansas. I was adopted."

"Color me surprised," she said.

He drew in a deep breath. "I'm not from Earth."

Lois Lane nodded, and double checked that her recorder was running. It was.

"How did you find out about this?"

"It's a long story. I was sent here from another planet, before it exploded, on a kind of lifeboat, I guess. I don't remember anything about it. I was a newborn when I was sent to Earth. My father, that is, my adopted father, buried the wreckage, but he showed it to me, after..."

Lois waited for him to continue, but when he didn't, asked, "after what?"

"Things started happening. At first I guess they just thought I was a natural athlete. I could run for hours and not get tired, go so much faster than all the other kids. Then it started getting weird. When I was thirteen I woke up one morning and I thought my eyelids were missing because I could see through them."

"Jesus," she whispered.

"I screamed. It blew out one of my dad's eardums, cracked every glass in the house and killed a bunch of starlings in the barn. It's a good thing we weren't in town. I was lucky."

"So then he showed you the... the ship. The wreckage."

"Yeah. There was a message for me on board. It told me what I was and where I came from."

"Where was that?"

He itched at his chin. "A planet called Krypton."

"That's an element," Lois said. "It's on the periodic table. It's a noble gas."

"Yeah. Weird coincidence. I guess it's the same kind of coincidence as this." He pointed at his chest. "Looks like an S, right?"

"Yeah. It does."

"Well, it isn't. I guess it's an ideogram. My native language is... really complicated. This symbol is an ideogram. It's a family crest, a name, and a word. It translates... well the literal translation is 'likelihood of positive experiences' but a simpler way to express it would be-"

"Hope," said Lois.

"Yeah."

"It looks like an S to me."

"Yeah it does."

"So you're an alien foundling from a dead planet raised by Kansans to... what?"

He was looking straight ahead, not at her.

"I don't know," he said, very softly.

"Go on."

"The message told me what this power is, and how it works. There's specific wavelengths of electromagnetic energy that Earth's sun radiates that the star my homeworld orbited does not. I absorb that energy and can harness it to, well... you've seen it. It lets me do things other people can't."

He rested his hands on his knees.

"I know where this power comes from. I know what it is and how it works. What no one has ever been able to tell me is what I should do with it."

He stood up and paced the roof.

"I mean, think about it. What gives me the right?"

"The right to...?"

"Anything," he said. "The right to do anything with this power. I grew up in Kansas, Miss Lane, not under a rock. I've seen plenty of movies. People are terrified of aliens. If I floated down to the White House lawn, they'd start shooting at me."

"I don't think that would really ruin your day," she said, blithely.

"That's not the point, Miss Lane. What right do I have to change the world?"

Lois folded her hands in her lap and stared at him.

This is not what she was expecting at all.

"Why are you looking at me like that?"

"You're not what I was expecting."

"I'm sorry," He said, sheepishly. "I guess I should go."

He turned, and Lois called.

"Wait. Why don't you let me ask you a few questions? Just a few more?"

"Okay," he said. "I guess. I don't have to go to work for another hour."

Lois blinked. Work? Work?

"What do you do?"

"Well, I double majored. I have a bachelor's in history and English."

"You teach?"

"No. I'm a barista."

Lois wanted to laugh, but she didn't.

"You realize how absurd that sounds?"

"I do have a teaching cert, it's just I have to pay rent and substituting is too spotty-"

Lois laughed.

"I'm sorry, is this funny?'

"Look at you," she said, gesturing at his chest. "You have rent and you work in a cafe. I don't understand you at all."

"I know," he said, his voice low and strained. "I don't know if anybody can."

"Then help me," Lois said. "Tell me what it's like."

He turned around suddenly.

"I'm looking at you right now," he said, and even if she closed her eyes she could feel that it was true. "You have an aura. Your skin is alive with light."

"What color is it?"

"There isn't a word for it. I'm watching radioactive particles from the sun bouncing off your skin. I can see in infrared and ultraviolet. Your whole circulatory system. Even your hair is a billion colors. Are you okay? You have increased blood flow to the capillaries in your face."

"You really know how to sweet talk a girl. Your dad teach you that line about capillaries before you went to the prom?"

Now there was capillary action in his face.

"I was trying to tell you how beautiful... it doesn't matter. My father died before I went to prom, actually."

Her breath caught. "Oh. I'm sorry. I didn't realize..."

I'm making a botch of this, she thought.

"Just let me ask you one thing. The bridge. Was that the first time you did anything like that?"

He shook his head. "I only ever did little things. Car accidents, stuff like that." He let out a little laugh. "When I was twelve I ran around the woods during deer season after I realized I could catch the bullets. Drove the hunters crazy. Few years after that we had a bad storm. A funnel cloud touched down outside of town, thank God it didn't do that much damage, but it wrecked the water tower. It would have flooded the whole place out if I hadn't done something about it."

He described it to her as though he were talking about going out to get the mail.

"What about the bridge, then?"

He shook his head. "I didn't have time to think about the ethics of it. All those people were going to die and I had to make a decision to either help them or not. I picked help."

Lois shifted on the ledge and leaned forward. "So all your life, you've done these things in secret. You're afraid of what might happen to you if you exposed yourself that way."

"My father was afraid of that," he told her, wrapping his arms around himself. "He was convinced they'd find some way to strap me to a table and cut me open to see how I work. He said the first think somebody would be thinking when they saw me was how to we make more of them, and how do we make them do what we want, and what happens to me in the process is irrelevant."

Lois felt a chill run down her spine, and nodded. "I think he was probably right."

Clark walked to the edge and looked over, past her to the city skyline behind her back.

"I can't not do it. I look at all the big stuff... like, world hunger. I could make people with food feed people without. I could make people with money give it to the poor. I could threaten people to make them do the right thing, couldn't I?"

"I don't know," Lois said, maybe, growing a little alarmed.

He wasn't looking at her now. Maybe he was afraid of what he'd see in her reactions.

"I could, but what gives me the right?"

"So what about the train? Stuff like that?"

"It's the same question. I looked at the train. Do something and put myself at risk, or do nothing and let four hundred and thirty-six people die."

"Just do nothing," she said.

"Yeah.'

"But what gives you the right?"

He sat down next to her. "That's it. That's exactly it. What gives me the right not to interfere?"

"I don't know."

"I don't know either. I went to a pretty podunk college, Miss Lane. Some fancy place like your Daily Planet wouldn't look at me twice. Back home I was a big fish in a small pond but here I'm just another guy."

Lois couldn't help it. She started laughing. Loudly.

"Are you kidding me?"

"You know what I mean," he sighed.

"This sounds really hard for you to figure out," she said. "You've obviously committed to being more, ah, public about it. Why the, um, suit?"

"I didn't stay," he said, swinging his feet. "You know, after the train, but I looked at the crowd. I just looked real quick. Some of them were scared, others were awed, but I felt something. I felt like those people needed to see me do that as badly as the people on the train needed me to keep it from going in the drink."

"The drink?"

"My dad did a stint in the navy. Sorry."

Lois laughed.

"What was it they needed?"

He looked up abruptly.

"You like Carl Sagan?"

"The astronomer. Cosmos."

"Yeah."

"I guess," she shrugged.

"You know I look at this world all around me and I'm floored at how beautiful everything is," he said, though he seemed to be looking mostly at her. "How much good there is. I know a lot of people only see the bad. I know people feel like things are mostly bad, like things are out of control. I just don't see it that way. I can't."

"Because of the capillaries?"

"Because, hey, at least this planet is still here."

"Oh," she said, "ah, right. So the suit is a symbol, I guess."

"I guess," he said. "I wish I had all the answers and I could give you a big pep talk. All I know is that I can't force the world to be the way I want it to be. I don't know if it even should be that way. I don't know what would give me the right. I just know that I can't stay hidden anymore. If no one else will say it, I will. If something wrong is happening, we need to fix it, any way we can. The more power we have the more of an obligation we have. I figure the best way to say it is by doing it."

"So the suit is a symbol of that."

"Yeah, I guess it is. Besides, I don't want to get my uniform all torn up. I have to pay for my own aprons."

Lois snorted. "I'll bet. I have to say, though. If I can be honest with you, Clark. That suit looks like your mother made it."

He smiled thinly. "She did."

Lois snickered. "Alright."

He stood.

"Wait," she said.

"What?"

"Clark, you need another name. Can I be frank with you? With the information you just gave me I could track down your family back in Kansas and have your street address in five minutes."

"How?" he said, suddenly tense.

"I know your approximate age and I know your parents are farmers and your father was in the Navy. I know around when he passed away and the crash of that ship you were talking about is probably tracked somehow, even if they thought it was a meteor, something like that. I can narrow it down to a geographic area, narrow it down to farmers, one an ex-navy man, with one child who was adopted... wouldn't take me long. I'm an intrepid reporter."

He grew more tense by the second.

"I'm not going to reveal all of that information. I know what you came here to say and that's all I'm going to publish. I'm just telling you that you can't be so trusting, Clark. You need another name, too."

He nodded. "I guess pops was right about that dissection table. I better get to work."

He turned and started to leave, but stopped.

"Maybe we can talk again," he said.

If he knew how her heart sped up he gave no sign.


Real world superman would be proclaimed the antichrist. Yes, by the same people who proclaimed Donald Trump, Barack Obama, George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George H.W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter, Gerald Ford, Richard Nixon, Hugh Hefner, the guy who invented corn flakes, Cap'n Crunch, and Mr. Peanut the antichrist. If you actually think that Pope Francis would come out and say anything other than Superman is doing good and therefore he is good and can find salvation in Christ and that if aliens exist the Lord will find a way to offer them communion in Christ, for his ways are mysterious, you're wrong. Muslims would say much the same things without the Jesus parts, and Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. etc. aren't challenged by alien life or people with superpowers at all. the Dalai Llama would love Supes and other buddhists would be asking if he has buddha nature while the Jews go ahead and proclaim him a righteous gentile among the nations.

I don't subscribe to the absolute power to the absolute extreme argument that you're pushing here at all. Superman would have no material needs, no reason to lie or cheat or steal because they gain him nothing. In truth I think Moore was right and the biggest danger a Superman would present would be excessive detachment from humanity rather than poisonous attachment.

I think the reason Superman is doomed never to be treated right on film again is twofold:

1. The culture of Hollywood is pretty clearly rotten to the core. We can't expect people who cannot grok the idea of the solar god of hope to make a movie that is authentic to him.

2. Superman's appeal falls outside the core fanbase for blockbuster movies. He is a character for the very young and the matured. He doesn't belong to the cynic, the edgelord, the person tasked by anger until they give up on the idea of hope in the world. He's for kids who can see the limitless possibility in the idea of a man who can do anything and for adults who have put away the fear of childish things.

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:58 am

View Original PostRay wrote:Wonder woman actually IS a god from a fantastic world. It makes sense for her. It doesn't make sense for Superman given he grew up in 1990's Kansas (depending on the incarnation) and lived in fear of hurting other people if he made a mistake.

On top of that? I don't think Wondy has to worry about messing up on the level of something like THIS. Because she's not OP like Superman is.
SPOILER: Show
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Camelot Falls by Busiek BTW. One of my favorite Superman stories

Nobody would be able to handle the stress of Superman's OP powers, and would almost certainly snap and wipe humanity out at some point. And there isn't a damn thing we could do about it.

Superheroes CAN work. SuperMAN can't.

Do you honestly think that the audiences were thinking that watching WW? Heck, even DC Comics fans weren't sure if they were going to go with the goddess backstory or not. (That's the thing about Wonder Woman, she has almost as many backstories as the Joker does.) But, even considering that she is a goddess, she is a goddess descended from Greek Mythological characters, almost none of which are purely good. Hell, the main villain in the Wonder Woman movie was also a god, and he was branded as being evil. Unlike the Abrahamic religions, the status of "godhood" in the DCCU is not short-hand for purely good or holy. Most of them are evil, or, at the very least, a little creepy and abusive. So the fact that Wonder Woman is a purely good goddess descended from other fallible and sinful deities stretches the "purely good" logic as much as Superman being a purely good hero descended from other fallible and sinful humanoids stretches that logic. Neither the characters of Superman nor of Wonder Woman can rest fully on their backstories to logically explain their pure goodness. It comes from something other than their respective backstories, and the fact that the origins of this pure goodness found within these characters is kept a mystery is intentional on the part of the writers involved with these characters. It allows the audience to believe that those around them (or even the individuals themselves) could stand up and be good when the time comes.

(And, no, Wonder Woman being created to be a "God-Killer" doesn't explain how she became good either. If anything it only underscores how the gods in the DCCU lore aren't inherently good to begin with, hence why they need to have a literal God-Killer hunting them down in the first place. And the action of killing gods in it of itself has nothing to do with goodness one way or the other. The same tasks can be executed accurately even if Wonder Woman killed gods in the stylings and the philosophical conclusions of The Punisher.)

The fact that neither Wonder Woman nor Superman can rely on their backstories to logically explain their pure goodness is the very reason why they are named by human terms. Superman is called Superman, not Superalien. Wonder Woman is called Wonder Woman, not Wonder Goddess. Their backstories have nothing to do with their goodness (and, logically, can never have anything to do with their goodness), therefore those aspects of the character's backstories become irrelevant to the characters' naming. The only purpose in having mythical or sci-fi origins with either character is to explain the origin of their superpowers. Their goodness is explicitly meant to come from within.

Any other reading of the explicit texts about the characters is objectively a misinterpretation of those texts.

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby movieartman » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:38 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:You can't have any serious (well extremely serious) consequences in a superhero-verse.

View Original PostRay wrote:I believe it too. I just go about it in a different way. I don't think that message is conductive to a world where a Literal alien Demigod exists.
They tried that. It didn't work.
Being a 'light to show the way' makes sense. In a world where the light can shine. But in a world tonally like Dark Knight or Watchmen. The light can never shine, because it acknowledges that human beings are flawed. The second you acknowledge that? You can't make a Superman movie where he's the Superman people are familiar with.
Superheroes CAN work. SuperMAN can't.

View Original PostRay wrote:The second you put Superman in the real world? He CEASES TO BE SUPERMAN. You can't have a Superman as he is in the comic books exist in a realistic setting.

Respectfully Ray I feel you are overreacting in regards to this.
Man of Steel & it's version of Superman would have worked for ALOT more of the audience including the realism & destruction had they simply had a sequence of Clark saving people from the rubble after killing Zod instead of jumping to the Drone sequence. I full on love Mos but that was a major missed opportunity. I get they probably didn't want to dwell on it but it would have been less jarring & it would have felt less like they dismissed the destruction as a after thought.

View Original PostRay wrote:Either he would go mad from the persecution and fear humanity has for him and conquer/destroy us. Or he'd leave the earth for greener pastures to be with people more like him and/or to protect the human race fromhim. There are only two ways you can take Superman in a realistic setting.

OR it could turn out exactly like Snyder had it go in Bvs before his death, with him accepting that he can't please everyone but it doesn't matter because his loved one makes him happy and so he should go out and do the right thing regardless if it is well received.
Problem is the audience misinterprets his focus on Lois as selfishness or that he only cares about Lois and not the rest of the world.

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Why do you insist that audiences won’t accept a purely good Superman whe they’ve already accepted a purely good Wonder Woman?
The success of the only descent DCCU movie actively and undeniably negates this whole contrarian mindset you have with the very basic concept of superheroes.
I mean, if we don’t want to make superhero movies anymore, then just don’t make any Superman or Wonder Woman movies anymore either. Noir genres are amazing starting points for dark and shady protagonists. Let’s just do that instead.

No one is asking for a general purpose Superman who isn't heroic.
The Superman of the Dceu WAS purely good/altruistic in terms of intent, yes he had some pent up anger from being bullied for 33 years but he absolutely wanted to help people from when he was a kid to the present day. He was just as much of a hero as Diana, he was only dour & non enthusiastic about it because there was alot of downsides he was concerned about that Diana wouldn't be aware of living on her island or would dismiss as not being a issue once Ares was killed.
Remember in Mos upon meeting Jor-El he seemed to be preparing to eventually go public and help people & he seemed happy/content with that being his path while talking to Martha after returning from the arctic. Zod's arrival just moved the timetable forward.

Its very simple at this point: Audiences don't like seeing superheros in dour/depressed moods for any notable amount of time except Wolverine.

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:With the DCCU, rather than aesthetics of Realism and Expressionism being used to convey a message of hope, as Nolan did in The Dark Knight Trilogy, Snyder instead tries to use an "Edgy™" aesthetic to tell stories about nihilism and hopelessness. Superman can "S Stands For Hope" all he wants in MoS, but at the end of the day that "Hope" inadvertently smashed itself into billions of dollars of collateral damage and thousands of lives lost. Instead of being "The hero [the city] deserves, but not the one it needs right now," Superman is "The hero that accidentally kills people, and no one is sure what to do about it." It's truly dark, but Snyder and Goyer don't have the same skill as Alan Moore when it comes to these kinds of topics. (That lack of narrative skill should have been more obvious is Snyder's literal adaptation of Moore's The Watchmen, but I digress.)

This message is hastily backtracked in BvS, with Superman trying to be a symbol for pure hope while Batman is busy drowning in hopelessness. It's a movie that honestly makes more thematic sense if it pretended to be a sequel to both Batman Returns and Superman Returns instead. The confusion is made more so by Snyder's insistence on cranking up the "Edgy™" aesthetics up to 11. The movie is now about "Edgy™ Hope" vs "Edgy™ Hopelessness," and "Edgy™ Hope" literally dies at the end of the movie.

If the second movie in the franchise tried to recon the first movie to be something other than what it was, that's clear evidence that you have a real stinker on your hands as far as a connected narrative goes, at least within terms of thematics.

I feel your notably exaggerating the disparity between the end of Mos & Superman's place in Bvs.

The military would have given countless public statements about the black zero incident including Superman working alongside them + multiple reporters witnessed Superman's trying to stop Zod first hand + Zod's own worldwide planetary threat. So the world would factually know that Superman prevented human extinction.

The only accidents on Clark's part was accidentally flying Zod into the 711 & jumping over the oil truck and not noticing it's explosive nature until after it exploded into the parking garage. Those are incredibly minor faults on his part compared to billions of deaths that would have occurred had he failed.

It's akin to a police officer seeing a entire family being murdered through a window and busting down the door to save them but the falling door injures a child.
That doesn't make the cop incompetent or unheroic, tragic downsides happen sometimes, it's not nihilistic or edgy to accept that fact.

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Ray » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:04 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote: Real world superman would be proclaimed the antichrist. Yes, by the same people who proclaimed Donald Trump, Barack Obama, George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George H.W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter, Gerald Ford, Richard Nixon, Hugh Hefner, the guy who invented corn flakes, Cap'n Crunch, and Mr. Peanut the antichrist.


I don't think Barack Obama can level a city if he had a bad day. Unlike those chuckleheads, Superman actually CAN bring about the apocalypse.

If you actually think that Pope Francis would come out and say anything other than Superman is doing good and therefore he is good and can find salvation in Christ and that if aliens exist the Lord will find a way to offer them communion in Christ, for his ways are mysterious, you're wrong.


The Bible outright says mankind is the center of Gods Creation. The mere existence of sentient life elsewhere in the universe outright puts the kibosh on things like the Creation of the world, Christs Divinity, Mankinds special place in Gods plan for the universe, and Gods unconditional love for the individual. Superman's existence utterly disproves that. (see also the aforementioned Greek Pantheon, Gorilla City, characters like Deadman, and the whole blasphemous rouges Gallery of characters like Constantine, Swamp Thing, Neil Gaiman's Sandman and Lucifer)

There was this a short story I read in High School. Where a plot centered around a religious woman committing suicide because of her discovery that her entire religion was a lie. The woman had suffered a serious trauma in her childhood, her religion helped her get her meaning back and rebuild herself. Then she found out about the Alien Conspiracy running the world, saw how that utterly disproved the divinity of her God, everything she built her identity around collapsed, she realized she wasn't special or loved by God and that she was still broken and soiled by her past and nothing could redeem her, and it ended with her jumping off a building.

If I wrote a serious superman story that wasn't silver age silly. I would have to address the elephant in the room of the reactions of the earths religions to Superman and the greater DC universe at some point. Though I doubt DC editorial would ever let me even if I was a writer on one of their series.

As much as I appreciate WB and DC at least trying I've conceded. At some point you have to realize that if you don't want to alienate an audience you HAVE to outright ignore some big issues Superhero universes have. Any Superhero universe when you peel back the layers ultimately devolves into either a dystopia (Civil War, Watchmen, Injustice) or an outright nihilistic apocalyptic hellscape (Old Man Logan, Irredeemable)

Theres a reason my favorite Superhero story is Darwyn Cookes New Frontier. It's a love letter to the Silver Age.

Muslims would say much the same things without the Jesus parts,.


I don't think I should go into further detail about this one as it's a controversial topic. But you don't think they'd have issues with someone with that much power being born and raised in the most Christian Part of America? Conservative Red State Kansas?

and Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. etc. aren't challenged by alien life or people with superpowers at all. the Dalai Llama would love Supes and other buddhists would be asking if he has buddha nature while the Jews go ahead and proclaim him a righteous gentile among the nations.


In a world where aliens and people with Superpowers actually do exist. Buddhism would be the religion that would probably have the easiest time adjusting to the new reality.

Superman would have no material needs, no reason to lie or cheat or steal because they gain him nothing.


Then what grounds Superman into the human experience if he's never experienced suffering? Never been in pain, or suffering, or felt vulnerable or hungry?

Hell Manhattan has more of a reason to be a Superman than Clark. He actually WAS a human who dealt with human experiences up until his death and rebirth as Manhattan, and him losing his connection to humanity is tragic and makes him reconnecting with humanity all the more poignant. Supergirl (in the Injustice Timeline at least) saw her planet destroyed and deals with the worry her adopted world will suffer the same fate, that's something that grounds her into the human experience and giver her something the audience can connect to on a human level.

Superman? He doesn't really have any of that grounding him into the human experience.

Like I said. At some point, you have to realize you can't stop people from having fun and have to ignore some big questions and let superhero universe be inherently consequence free. Or write it in such a way that it makes the audience THINK there are consequences when it's really a Supervillain manipulating things behind the scenes. Otherwise you'll just end up with the black hole of something like Watchmen where it destroys the inherent concept of Superheroes as a force for good.

I think the reason Superman is doomed never to be treated right on film again is twofold:


Thoughts on the forthcoming Matt Vaughn movie?

Personally. I think they should do for Superman what they do to the Hulk. Have him show up as a cameo/supporting character in other characters stories, only have him show up in the team up films. Once they get all the continuity BS out of the way with Flashpoint anyways and have a version of the character that can appeal to at least more than 50% of the audience that is.

Have him show up. Have him have a big moment in another characters story. Then have him leave or move on and let the story continue.

1. The culture of Hollywood is pretty clearly rotten to the core. We can't expect people who cannot grok the idea of the solar god of hope to make a movie that is authentic to him.


grok

You read Heinlein too?

Stranger in a Strange Land is (goofy religious satire and flying cars aside) a pretty accurate representation of how mankind would react to a man who wishes to do nothing but good with literal Superpowers. Namely it would change the world but not necessarily for the better, cause a whole bunch of political and religious confusion, cause the creation of a religious cult surrounding him (though unlike Valentine who created said cult, Superman would deny being divine and definitely would object to any form of Polyamory), and eventually it would end with the worlds religious extremists joining forces to destroy him because he challenges everything humankind has held dear for thousands of years.

2. Superman's appeal falls outside the core fanbase for blockbuster movies. He is a character for the very young and the matured. He doesn't belong to the cynic, the edgelord, the person tasked by anger until they give up on the idea of hope in the world. He's for kids who can see the limitless possibility in the idea of a man who can do anything and for adults who have put away the fear of childish things.


Hence why I think maybe WB should make Superman an animated film character. Given that's where he shines and can be Superman without the serious somber tone of the DCEU dragging him down or causing tonal dissonance.

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Chuckman » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:41 pm

The serious somber tone of the DCCU is lifeless and pretentious. The only good DCCU movie is the one where a bright and bold character shining with inner goodness and innocence confronts the most horrific conflict in human history. I think that Wonder Woman's deepest flaw was bowing to what I presume to be studio pressure and blunting its message with a superhero battle at the end, but it's the only good one for a reason. I think I said this when WW came out and I wrote my initial thoughts, but the WW movie is basically everything a Superman movie should be. I don't want them to change her to make him the moral center, though, because I think WW is one of the best superhero movies ever made.

They needed to either build of TDK and keep Levitt as Batman or start from scratch and shift away from building the tone of the DCCU around the successful Batman movies, which is clearly what they did. The design by committee, people like this because it was popular in 2002 method of filmmaking produced a movie series that feels like it belongs in the early 2000's. They feel like pre-Iron Man superhero films and that's why they're flopping.

Also...

You're wildly underestimating the plasticity of religion. Christianity has survived learning that humans are not the center of the universe, another piece of evidence won't hurt them. Yes, fundamentalists regardless of religion would attack him but fundamentalists regardless of religion attack everything. One of the most supportive and loving people among my friends when I came out is a muslim, and that person continues to treat me with the utmost respect and dignity. I don't know why you look at the worst humanity has to offer and generalize that to everyone.

You are correct about the movie studios lacking the guts to go deep or political with Superman, though. I think they fear how people react when a being of perfect goodness is held up to themselves as a mirror, and the conclusions such a being would reach about human morality.

Let me throw this out:

Your arguments about Superman omit one key factor: Empathy. I've never been close to starving, either, yet I empathize with the people who are. Your arguments about the character make a fundamental assumption that a powerful being would have no appreciation for the beauty and complexity of the human experience. I disagree. I expect a man who is totally, painfully unique in the world and possessed of such power, who grew into it as he matured, would just as easily develop an appreciation for how fragile and magical life and being in the world really is.

Although, thinking on it, I'd pull him out of Kansas for my movie, and put him somewhere more relevant.

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby movieartman » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:43 pm

Rumor: Affleck himself may become the overseer of the Dceu going forward.
https://upyourgeek.com/2018/01/01/rumor ... ilms-boss/

Wan teasing the Hook hand + Ocean Master.
SPOILER: Show
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One of my big hopes is that they cancel the Flashpoint movie.
That is WAY too big a story for the first Flash film, the sequels will pale in comparison stakes wise. And the only real point to doing a Flashpoint movie is to retcon stuff and that really isn't necessary as people seemed to have had a fond reaction to Superman's handling in JL once he was of sound mind again.
PLUS, with people disliking the dark stuff in the Dceu, do they really think showing Diana & Aquaman going to genocidal war against each other is a good idea? I mean seriously?

View Original PostRay wrote:1 - Theres a reason my favorite Superhero story is Darwyn Cookes New Frontier. It's a love letter to the Silver Age.

2 - Thoughts on the forthcoming Matt Vaughn movie?

1 - Haven't read the comic but strongly love the animated version. Honestly It has a pretty near ideal tone for Dc movies.
While Superman in it is never dour he is troubled by his fellow members moments of extremism + the political turmoil going on in the Us with the witch hunt for Communist & such. Also it wasn't afraid to go dark what with the possessed narrator committing suicide in the opening, Diana allowing the sex slaves to murder their captors & the cults and there wasn't any notable moments of outright comedy. It really did get the balance right I feel.

2 - There are several other directors I would choose before him, Brad Bird being the most logical. But talking Vaughn himself... I am very concerned but feel there is good potential.
Give it a tone close to First Class I feel would be a great balance between Reeves & Now. His statements regarding how he feels Superman should always be handled doesn't give me much hope for that level of restraint, I fear it more likely he will just straight up rehash the Reeves style/tone.
My worst fear is him going into Kingsman territory especially in regards to the villain & humor. Hell the Church scene & the fact that it was clearly intended for the audience to be rooting for the congregations deaths is more edgy & vile in anything in the Dceu so far.


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