Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Ray » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:47 pm

Jessica Jones Season 2 Trailer

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Postby El Squibbonator » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:05 pm

Justice League has now made $618 million, meaning it has doubled its budget and should theoretically break even, assuming it stays in theaters as long as the other DC Extended Universe movies. A final tally of $650-675 million looks likely at this point, with $700 million possible at a stretch.
DC isn't in any mood to celebrate, though. One consequence has already become clear: Zack Snyder will no longer direct DCEU films. Due to Justice League's poor performance compared to Wonder Woman (which Snyder did not direct), he will only be an executive producer from here on out. The next movie in the series will be Aquaman, which will be directed by James Wan, not Zack Snyder.
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:30 pm

Film needs to clear $700 - $750 million just to start making a profit. This was a film that was in the planning in some form or another for years and from conception was expected to at minimum make over $1 BILLION. Warner Brothers was hoping to net 100s of millions from the theatrical alone and even if the film does hit that $750M number (it won't, Star Wars is now out and will be taking ALL the global business & what's left will go to new releases like Jumanji 2 or family friendly holdover Coco) the profit will be comparable to what a small indie drama would have made them. That's not what they were shooting for.

Justice League is a bomb.

And another major warning sign about how budgets for blockbusters are just getting too damn big.

http://deadline.com/2017/11/justice-league-opening-weekend-box-office-lower-thor-ragnarok-wonder-the-star-1202211094/

"I hear from credible financial sources who are privy to Justice League‘s budget that if the film clears $700M-$750M global, after ancillaries, it would profit, but a breakeven scenario exists in the high $600M global B.O. range which is where this Snyder opus is bound to final."

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Postby El Squibbonator » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:01 pm

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:but a breakeven scenario exists in the high $600M global B.O. range which is where this Snyder opus is bound to final."


That's pretty much what I was saying in the first place. If this thing pulls through to, say, a $650-million-plus gross, then it'll have made it into the black--but only by the skin of its teeth. That's still not a good thing; a movie that barely breaks even is not a "major success" or a "smash hit", certainly not in the way that WB wants it to be. This movie was supposed to, like you said, clear $1 billion easily. Even if it isn't a money-loser in the technical sense of the word, it will still be viewed as a financial disappointment.

So in that scenario, I wouldn't really call Justice League a true bomb in the sense that it failed to break even at all. There ought to be a different word for movies that, while they didn't lose money, were still seen as disappointing. I call movies like that "whiffs", again denoting lack of success, but not as harsh as a "bomb".
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Postby cyharding » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:15 pm

Wait, wait. If the movie made back its production expenses, how can it be a financial failure? I don't get that.

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Postby El Squibbonator » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:29 pm

It's complicated. A very rough rule of thumb is that movies have to at least double their budgets to break even. This doesn't take into account things like how much money the theaters keep (it's usually about half of each ticket sold, which is why the budget has to be doubled, but it can be more or less), marketing (which can be expensive, but can also generate profits through the sale of promotional products), TV and streaming rights, and DVD sales.

As for Justice League itself, it cost about $300 million to make and has currently grossed about $620 million. That sounds pretty good on paper, but it's actually barely passable. Studios don't just want to break even, after all--they want big profits. And if Justice League finishes its run only a tiny bit into the black, that's still going to be disappointing because it didn't generate a ton of profit. Wonder Woman, the last DC superhero movie, was considered a major success because it made $821 million on a $150 million budget. It didn't just break even, it made a huge profit.

The other thing to consider is that it was, well, a Justice League movie. That sort of thing should have been a runaway smash hit. Superhero movies are huge business, the DC superheroes are some of the most famous comic book characters of all, this movie had so much going for it. A movie that barely covers its budget might be acceptable in some situations, but not for something like this. Think of it like this: if you got a C on a test in a class you normally get D's in, you'd be impressed. But if you got a C on a test in a class you normally get A's in, you'd be pretty bummed.

TL;DR: it's all about how much profit the studio expects--just breaking even isn't always enough.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:48 am

View Original Postcyharding wrote:Wait, wait. If the movie made back its production expenses, how can it be a financial failure? I don't get that.

Because it didn't make back advertisement expenses. Trailers, TV spots, commercials, bill-boards, internet mid rolls, bus skins, ect.; they don't payoff themselves.

There's also just how much actual money was being traded while these movies were made. If you spend $30 million on a movie, and make back $37 million, that's pretty neat. If you spend $300 million, and only make back $307 million, that's actually rather terrible. The net profit is $7 million in both cases, but a studio would rather move less money in order to make it. A studio will always ask "Why did I have to spend $300 million on Justice League and only net profit $320 million, when I could have more easily done that with a lower-budgeted film?" The amount of moving parts required to spend $300 million is far more stressful and time-consuming than the moving parts needed to spend $150 million. The fact that Wonder Woman nets $671 million, over half of what Justice League nets, is a particular slap in the face. Funding for WW was probably less stressful and required less (literal?) dick sucking than JJ needed in order to get made, and yet it made a whole lot more money.

Objectively, going through all of that trouble and spending all of that money and only netting half of what other, lesser-budgeted films made, is an unwise business practice, and should probably be halted ASAP. This is why certain filmmakers, like Godfrey Reggio, look for rich people with "money to burn." Backers might see a return on investment... years later, but shouldn't be of the mind to care about that. They should just spend the money to see "good art."

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Postby El Squibbonator » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:14 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:There's also just how much actual money was being traded while these movies were made. If you spend $30 million on a movie, and make back $37 million, that's pretty neat. If you spend $300 million, and only make back $307 million, that's actually rather terrible. The net profit is $7 million in both cases, but a studio would rather move less money in order to make it. A studio will always ask "Why did I have to spend $300 million on Justice League and only net profit $320 million, when I could have more easily done that with a lower-budgeted film?"


That's pretty much what I said. Allow me to quote myself for clarity:
As for Justice League itself, it cost about $300 million to make and has currently grossed about $620 million. That sounds pretty good on paper, but it's actually barely passable. Studios don't just want to break even, after all--they want big profits. And if Justice League finishes its run only a tiny bit into the black, that's still going to be disappointing because it didn't generate a ton of profit. Wonder Woman, the last DC superhero movie, was considered a major success because it made $821 million on a $150 million budget. It didn't just break even, it made a huge profit.
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Postby Chuckman » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:25 am

This is why certain filmmakers, like Godfrey Reggio, look for rich people with "money to burn." Backers might see a return on investment... years later, but shouldn't be of the mind to care about that. They should just spend the money to see "good art."


A major film studio that operated anything like this would be rightly sued for violating their fiduciary duties to their shareholders.

The DCCU is a flop but that’s like saying the auto industry should have gone back to making salon cars for the rich after the Edsel.

Also, superhero movies can be art. Art doesn’t have to be jumbles of pure metaphor that only entertains critics. Art can be accessible and you can find layers of meaning in anything if you look for it.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:31 pm

^ I agree with all of that. I’m just stating how movies like Koyaanisqatsi were made. There is a spot where art can be the sole objective and money is no object. Hollywood doesn’t work in that space, nor should it ever. To them, movies are a delicate balancing act between profitability, watchability, and art, and WB stumbled on all of those fronts with all but one of its DCCU films.

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Postby El Squibbonator » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:43 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:A major film studio that operated anything like this would be rightly sued for violating their fiduciary duties to their shareholders.

The DCCU is a flop but that’s like saying the auto industry should have gone back to making salon cars for the rich after the Edsel.

Also, superhero movies can be art. Art doesn’t have to be jumbles of pure metaphor that only entertains critics. Art can be accessible and you can find layers of meaning in anything if you look for it.


I wouldn't call the whole DCCU a flop. All they need to do is get rid of Zack Snyder, which they now seem to be doing.
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Postby silvermoonlight » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:27 am

View Original PostEl Squibbonator wrote:I wouldn't call the whole DCCU a flop. All they need to do is get rid of Zack Snyder, which they now seem to be doing.


They should get rid off Joss whedon as well while there at it in my view as I think fresh eyes and perspective is really needed now if DCCU ever wants to have any hope of standing up to Marvel films.
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Postby Chuckman » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:56 pm

One of Marvel's assets is they have a showrunner who doesn't direct the movies.

What they need is a conductor. Someone who plays the orchestra.

This is the mistake that the DCCU made and to a lesser extent Star Wars is making. Hollywood is dominated by visual stylists but if you're telling stories the story should come first and the visuals should serve that.

Visual stylists can tell an entire story independent of script and dialogue but I'm not going to Infinity War to see The Shining.

Melodrama is an art form and they need to embrace it. Not to be a broken record but Marvel works because they stopped being ashamed of comics. They embrace all the crazy wild shit that makes superhero comics fun.

My advice to DC would be to table the Justice League's core members with one exception and make a bunch of movies about Blue Beetle, lizardmen in the hollow earth, a Green Lantern movie set in space with an actual space police plot, etc.

Hell, do a Fourth World movie, and for God's sake stop the worldbuilding and start doing self contained stories. Save the continuity for when everything is already clickin'.
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Postby Ray » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:47 pm

View Original PostEl Squibbonator wrote:I wouldn't call the whole DCCU a flop. All they need to do is get rid of Zack Snyder, which they now seem to be doing.


The thing is Snyder didn't want to do Batman v Superman which was the movie that caused every problem they're currently having. He wanted to do a Man of Steel Sequel and in my opinion that would have been a much better choice it would have if nothing else given the universe time to breathe. But with Man of Steel underperforming the WB suits essentially mandated that you put Batman in the movie, and have Batman and Superman fight each other because that was something that had never been in the movies before. And under that mandate he made the best movie he possibly could.

And with everything he's currently going through and all the blame being laid at his feet I really don't want to beat on the poor guy. frankly I'm just sick of it.

None of this even matters anyway they're just going to reboot the whole f****** thing with Flashpoint.

They embrace all the crazy wild shit that makes superhero comics fun.


The last two times they did that? They got Green Lantern and Superman Returns.

As I said before. Do you think a mainstream audience would give someone like Bwana Beast or Mxyptlk a chance? NO! They're too absurd! Even for a comic book movie! During the production of JL I said DC needs to EASE THE AUDIENCE IN to the lighter more optimistic world and out of the darkness. Jumping right from 'might as well be the real world' to "4th Dimensional Imps and Jack Kirby's 4th World" would nothing short of whiplash inducing. As justice league and Suicide Squad can attest to.

On top of that. You know what I want to see? I want to see a Superman movie done like the Dark Knight. Done super realistically. No camp. Humor present but subdued, with real stakes and tension. and doesn't shy away from the big questions and implications of the existence of a omnipotent demigod among us.

You can ask big questions with these characters and examine big themes with them! But because they botched up the execution of ONE movie. Now we're never going to have a DC Superhero movie about themes and Ideas for a while. Maybe not ever again given how unwieldy characters like Superman are.

I've conceded that Superman can't work in that kind of a reality. Superman can only work in a world as absurd and over the top and optimistic as he is. You put him in a 'realistic' world? or a world closer to the cynical side of the sliding scale than others? He ceases to be Superman, or at least the kind of Superman people want to see.
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Postby movieartman » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:06 pm

Still on hiatus just going to address this and share some thoughts on Wonder Woman which I remembered I never got around to reviewing when I saw it a few months ago (rewatched it last week)

View Original PostRay wrote:I've conceded that Superman can't work in that kind of a reality. Superman can only work in a world as absurd and over the top and optimistic as he is. You put him in a 'realistic' world? or a world closer to the cynical side of the sliding scale than others? He ceases to be Superman, or at least the kind of Superman people want to see.

I believe this is false.
Evidence being Wonder Woman's reception.
It handled the setting & war very realistically aside from Poison & Ludendorf's pulpy villainy & didn't shy away from bitter consequences/sacrifices (the town getting gassed, Trevor dying)

I'm at the point were I don't think the audience cares about how realistic the setting is or not. I think what is critical for many of them is that the lead hero not be effected (for long or to the point of being angsty) by the negative effects of the world. They want them to shrug it off extremely quickly. General audiences seem fairly over heroes having dour personal turmoil especially if said turmoil has no obvious solution (like what Clark faced in Bvs with politicians & the media's examination/criticism of him)
Further proof of this is how Holland's Spider-Man has been received compared to Garfield (which I haven't seen). Audiences don't want unnerving personal mysteries about what happened to Peter's parents they want them & even Ben's death to be a silent motivating factor but to be treated as a after though so we can focus on Peter enthusiastically heroing.

Chuckman
You mentioned in your review you thought of Ares's presence as a negative as it negated the revelation of human's causing war on their own.
I personally feel they made it work without doing so by going into how Ares's spreads knowledge of war but not the will to use said knowledge, they supply that themselves.
It was muddled a little by the German soldiers reaction after Ares's death comes off like they are released from his influence when I think the intent was that they were actually just incredibly relieved to be alive after the titanic battle that just occurred. That part could have been handled more clearly.

Other Wonder Woman thoughts & comparison to the 2009 Animated WW film
- Big downside of the 2009 film was Trevor was a unlikable jocky dick & was made a mockery of at points. This was my biggest worry going into the new film. Incredibly thankful they made him such a through and through hero in 2017 and that they never at anypoint degraded him to make Diana look good. They made them a couple that genuinely compliments each other rather then contrast.
- Amazon's were also handled very well, no evidence of misandry or sadism as I feared.
- Ares's reveal was handled very well & suspensefully.
- Ares's design I'm mixed on, I kinda wanted a more slick godly design but the scrap metal patchwork concept we got did make for some iconic shots such as when he pulls the armor together & walks out of the fire.
- Final battle is great but when Ares's helmet got knocked off the CGI placing David's head on the armor body did not work all that well.
- Music was damn good & notably better then the Justice League tracks that I have heard so far (haven't seen JL yet)
- Killing off the Greek Gods already I think was a missed opportunity.
- Gadot is good. Only notably place her acting failed was in the stairwell scene such as her yelling out "this is Ares".
- Her dispair upon realizing humans make war of their own accord was well preformed as was her more subtle but still effective reaction to Antiope's death.
- Liked Trevor's crew particularly Sameer. They handled the bit with him being infatuated with Diana very well, they had her put a stop to it without threatening him or humiliating/degrading him. Compare that to Diana threatening to rip Orion's balls off after she grabs them during a sadistic & public kiss if he didn't "respect her" in the new 52. It shows a strong amount of restraint & subtlety that I pray remains present In the sequels.

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Postby Chuckman » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:04 pm

I don't completely disagree with you, but I feel like the way they depicted him made it look like he was doing a little more than giving a nudge. He actively gave Dr. Poison a formula by whispering in her ear. I think the intent there was that Ares himself thought of what he was doing as just giving the already corrupt humans a nudge but that was simply justifying his own hatred to himself.

I stand by what I said: It's a good superhero movie, one of the best, but if it was a superhero movie that ends with the protagonist realizing she can't solve violence with violence it would be a great movie, period.

JL spoilers

SPOILER: Show
One thing I didn't like in JL was how violent she was in the bank hostage rescue scene. She wasn't bad overall but it seemed weirdly out of character for her to use her smashy bracer move on a regular guy who she could just smack around. Judging how powerful that is, she should have leveled the floor of the building and turned that guy to paste.

The fundamental problem, I think, is that Man of Steel/BvS try to establish a superhero universe that's concerned with violence, first by making the end of MoS the main plot point of BvS and then by emphasizing all the battles taking place in big empty spaces (Doomsday on a deserted island) in a way that's really ham handed. It feels weird when the violence momentarily turns cartoony in this setting that's mostly trying to look serious and realistic about people getting hurt.

It just seems dumb that the rampaging Doomsday and the guy who jokes about people begging to be spared for their family's sakes are so wiling to take the fight somewhere with no risk of casualties.

That's why so many people complained about Superman smashing that guy through a wall, Batman's extreme violence, etc. These movies are concerned with the violent repercussions of what superheroes do and how it would affect people, but basically drop that at certain points and become extremely cartoony with it.

Marvel handles it much more intelligently, I'm afraid. For one, a no-kill code isn't a core part of any of their stable of characters. It's not out of character or noteworthy for a weapons dealer, a soldier, the Norse god of thunder, etc. to kill someone if it's necessary, and the films concern themselves with the outcomes and consequences of this violence in a much more fulfilling and focused way than BvS did. Plus, the solo movies have been really intelligent in deal with it- two of Cap's movies and Iron Man 3 all focus on it.
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Postby El Squibbonator » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:38 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:The last two times they did that? They got Green Lantern and Superman Returns.


Hey, you take that back! Superman Returns was awesome!
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Postby Chuckman » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:00 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:
As I said before. Do you think a mainstream audience would give someone like Bwana Beast or Mxyptlk a chance?


Yeah, you're right, that movie with the talking raccoon and Ego the Living Planet was a critical and financial bomb.

I should add: What made the Green Lantern movie a critical and financial failure wasn't that it was too weird. It wasn't weird enough. Also Ryan Reynolds shouldn't be allowed to play any superhero besides Deadpool because he plays them all as Deadpool. As well as every non-superhero character and also himself in real life.

Also there's matters of timing. The public is primed for comic movies to be weird in their full glory. I think above all else, the reason the DCCU movies are doing so poorly is that, with the exception of the good one, they look like superhero movies that should have hit theaters in 2010. They're dated before they arrive.
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Postby Ray » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:35 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Yeah, you're right, that movie with the talking raccoon and Ego the Living Planet was a critical and financial bomb.


Yeah, you're right. The Dark Knight Trilogy that didn't have anyone with superpowers or aliens or time travel and only a touch of humor from Alfred was a critical and financial bomb.

See? I can made false equivalencies too!

Take Iron Man for instance. That movie was pretty grounded in the real world. He fought Al Qaeda and other guys in Armored suits, or a british actor pretending to be Al Qaeda.

You couldn't have Iron Man fight Fing Fang Foom in the same movie where he fights Al Qaeda. There's acceptable breaks from reality and then theres THAT.

The humor and absurdity in the first movie was subdued. Marvel worked their way up to where people were willing to give the absurdity of a talking racoon and a sentient planet a chance because they ate their veggies first with the first Iron Man being toned down.


It wasn't weird enough.


A world eating space entity. Alien artifacts, hammy dialogue, a man with a giant zit for a head and frickin SINESTRO wasn't weird enough for you?

The public is primed for comic movies to be weird in their full glory.


I'm perfectly fine with DC movies being more serious, tonally somber and dealing with bigger themes. I'll be a broken record myself. The problem isn't serious or funny. It's TONAL CONSISTENCY. Like Cracked said, a steak is not improved by Skittles. A cinematic universe that was originally supposed to be about dark themes and serious ideas throwing in jokes where they don't belong can't do anything but make the audience angry (and it did given the box office). Gradually let the audience down. Jumping right into Silver Age hijinks as I said, will just be a case of mood whiplash and make people angrier.

If do what you want them to do Chuck? Guess what? You and everyone else is just gonna give them crap for that too.

We wouldn't be at each others throats over this if DC and WB would just get their shit together. But we know that they never are.
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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Chuckman » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:55 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Yeah, you're right. The Dark Knight Trilogy that didn't have anyone with superpowers or aliens or time travel and only a touch of humor from Alfred was a critical and financial bomb.

See? I can made false equivalencies too!


Except I didn't. You argued that crazy movies don't do well. I pointed to successful crazy movies. Most superhero movies are pretty crazy. I stand by my point: The Green Lantern movie sucked ass and was a flop because it was boring, by the numbers, timid, and flirted with the strangeness of its subject matter without fully embracing it.

Take Iron Man for instance. That movie was pretty grounded in the real world. He fought Al Qaeda and other guys in Armored suits, or a british actor pretending to be Al Qaeda.

You couldn't have Iron Man fight Fing Fang Foom in the same movie where he fights Al Qaeda. There's acceptable breaks from reality and then theres THAT.


In the same movie where he "fights" fake Bin Laden he also fights a genetically engineered fire breathing man. He also shares a universe with the Norse god of lightning and thunder and one of his friends is an android with a magic gem in his skull.

Yeah, the first movie was pretty grounded. That was the point. The point was a grounded movie that ends with Nick Fury walking on screen to tell him he's part of a bigger universe.

The humor and absurdity in the first movie was subdued. Marvel worked their way up to where people were willing to give the absurdity of a talking racoon and a sentient planet a chance because they ate their veggies first with the first Iron Man being toned down.


The talking raccoon (and plant man and green woman) were in the first movie, too. GotG wasn't some super serious thing, it was comic book as fuck. They even used Jack Kirby's designs for the Celestials in a flashback. The movie ends with a dance battle!




A world eating space entity. Alien artifacts, hammy dialogue, a man with a giant zit for a head and frickin SINESTRO wasn't weird enough for you?


No. It was timid. It was on Earth. Earth is boring. I get that Green Lantern comics were mostly set on Earth for a long time but there's plenty of Earth superheroes. He's a space police, make a space police movie.

I'm perfectly fine with DC movies being more serious, tonally somber and dealing with bigger themes. I'll be a broken record myself. The problem isn't serious or funny. It's TONAL CONSISTENCY. Like Cracked said, a steak is not improved by Skittles. A cinematic universe that was originally supposed to be about dark themes and serious ideas throwing in jokes where they don't belong can't do anything but make the audience angry (and it did given the box office). Gradually let the audience down. Jumping right into Silver Age hijinks as I said, will just be a case of mood whiplash and make people angrier.

If do what you want them to do Chuck? Guess what? You and everyone else is just gonna give them crap for that too.

We wouldn't be at each others throats over this if DC and WB would just get their shit together. But we know that they never are.


You can treat serious ideas in a work of fiction without being depressing, boring, and confusing.

Making a dark movie about Superman is like making a dark movie about Santa Claus. It's a ludicrous proposition. There are plenty of ways to make a serious movie about hope, making a movie series where the deck is stacked against him and he's depressed and broody for no damn reason at all and everyone else is conveniently an idiot to make him look worse is not an exploration of those ideas.

MoS/BvS raise questions, yes, but they don't answer them, and if these movies have a theme it's oh god I'm so sorry I'm a comic book movie, isn't Batman great? They bite off more than they can chew. Hard.

It's not all Snyder's fault, the ultimate edition of BvS is a much better film but it still misses the mark by a mile.

As for the last thing... do you even read my posts? If they made the next movie a straight up silver/bronze age and went all in on the Fourth World and crazy weirdness. I don't want to see a JL movie where the bad guy makes sure he's in an abandoned nuclear site so no one gets hurt, I want global wars and alien invasions and shit that justifies every superhero on earth fighting back. Fuck it, give me a Crisis on Infinite Earths movie. The last thing I want to see is more Batman in the rain. Hell, how about a Batman who's mentally well adjusted and a detective-scientist not a paranoid, violent lunatic?
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