Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

A subforum for discussions about Film, TV, and Videos.

Moderators: New Moderators, Board Staff

Chuckman
Chuckman
Chuckman
User avatar
Age: 34
Posts: 8260
Joined: Nov 11, 2011
Location: Chuckman

Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Chuckman » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:19 pm

View Original Postsilvermoonlight wrote:That's spot on and Xena Warrior Princess only got away with it because it had time to build it's characters through out the series and stared well clear of leering objectified shots and the amazon talking was always a human being not a sex object and that was made really clear in every episode but movies do not have time to do this kind of character deep building due to time limits hence it can become really problematic if you have no character built up behind the sexualized outfit.


I never really watched Xena.

But, yeah. The Xena/Kevin Sorbo hercules thing was all about the cheese.

Like I said, context. If the show is pure cheese yeah, it works, but in this example the Amazons are running around in revealing fetishy clothes and no one else is. If Batman had a huge ab cutout in his batsuit and Aquaman's costume was a speedo and tattoos it would be a different story.

movieartman
Lilin
Lilin
Age: 26
Posts: 1903
Joined: Feb 24, 2014
Gender: Male

Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby movieartman » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:01 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:If Batman had a huge ab cutout in his batsuit and Aquaman's costume was a speedo and tattoos it would be a different story.

Almost no one wants to see that, plenty of people want to see semi sexy amazons.
Output is unequal because demand is unequal.
And besides that male bodies being more blocky & flat then females don't lend themselves to being in skimpy designs, it just looks awkwardly slapped on while with female bodies even muscular ones there is a reasonable level of elegant fluidity.
It's almost like Masculinity & femininity visually are... DIFFERENT OMG. :tongue:

Anyway, anyone excited for the Punisher series? Reviews are mostly positive, biggest complaint seems to be that 13 episodes is too much & makes the story way too slow.

Guy Nacks
Test Subject
Test Subject
User avatar
Posts: 2830
Joined: Nov 28, 2012
Gender: Male

Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Guy Nacks » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:43 pm

View Original Postmovieartman wrote:Almost no one wants to see that


-Straight Women
-Bi Women
-Gay Men
-Bi Men


I think there may be a significant portion of all 4 of those groups who would want to see sculpted, toned abs on male superheroes.
Among the people who use the Internet, many are obtuse. Because they are locked in their rooms, they hang on to that vision which is spreading across the world. But this does not go beyond mere ‘data’. Data without analysis [thinking], which makes you think that you know everything. This complacency is nothing but a trap. Moreover, the sense of values that counters this notion is paralyzed by it.

And so we arrive at demagogy. - Hideaki Anno, 1996

Sachi
Oh Daddy!
Oh Daddy!
User avatar
Age: 24
Posts: 9879
Joined: Aug 29, 2006
Location: Hollywoo
Gender: Male

Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sachi » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:46 pm

As a straight man, I still want to see Aquaman in a speedo. Let's bring back Bat Nipples as well.
"Chaos is merely a human construct. The world only knows its own natural law of harmony and order."
"So you are saying it's the human heart that throws the world into confusion."

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 7569
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:17 pm

The worst part of the bat nipples was that it was not an equal-opportunity decision by the time Batgirl rolled around in B&R. (Also, B&R in general. Forever was cool, but nobody seemed to want to be a part of B&R and it shows.)

Also, as a straight dude, sculpted men are pretty cool. Toned bodies can be admired apart from it being sexual, regardless of how you swing. (If you simply cannot enjoy the sight of a body of a gender you lean towards without sexual impulses guiding every decision afterwards, then I am truly sad for you.) Strangely, all of the abs in the world cannot sway my opinion that Daigo Stardust is the most beautiful human specimen. Not even his sisters can be that pretty.

But, I digress. Ripped men are awesome on screen.

Gendo'sPapa
First Ancestor
First Ancestor
User avatar
Posts: 4388
Joined: Oct 24, 2006
Location: At the Movies
Gender: Male

Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Gendo'sPapa » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:19 pm

View Original Postmovieartman wrote:Almost no one wants to see that, plenty of people want to see semi sexy amazons.
Output is unequal because demand is unequal.
And besides that male bodies being more blocky & flat then females don't lend themselves to being in skimpy designs, it just looks awkwardly slapped on while with female bodies even muscular ones there is a reasonable level of elegant fluidity.
It's almost like Masculinity & femininity visually are... DIFFERENT OMG. :tongue:


I looked up OBJECTIFICATION in the dictionary...
It was a link to your post.

True story.

Chuckman
Chuckman
Chuckman
User avatar
Age: 34
Posts: 8260
Joined: Nov 11, 2011
Location: Chuckman

Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Chuckman » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:07 am

View Original Postmovieartman wrote:Almost no one wants to see that,


This, as much as the camera pointed at a character's ass, is what male gaze is all about.

It's not appealing to straight men, so no one wants to see it. It's appealing to straight men, so it doesn't need any justification beyond that.

Sachi wrote:As a straight man, I still want to see Aquaman in a speedo. Let's bring back Bat Nipples as well.


I've always liked the Batman Returns suit design best, the way the muscles are highly stylized and squared off.

Batnips would be my second favorite. I think if it were done correctly it could recall some kind of obsidian statue. Snyder's Watchmen did this as a jab at the bat nipples but it actually came out looking pretty good to my eye.

I think my least favorite batsuit is the Begins one. It combines the ridiculous immobility of the Keaton suit with the tacticool "realistic" look that makes the suit itself highlight more strongly how impractical the damn thing is.

movieartman
Lilin
Lilin
Age: 26
Posts: 1903
Joined: Feb 24, 2014
Gender: Male

Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby movieartman » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:11 am

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:I looked up OBJECTIFICATION in the dictionary...
It was a link to your post.

True story.

No because the idea that if we hold value in a woman's visual attractiveness then we must automatically see her as a non sentient with no value beyond that is a psychotic irrational assumption made up by paranoid spiteful sadist who can't comprehend or out right ignore the idea that we can strongly value a woman's form and everything else about her at the same time

Degradation porn is a real & valid form of objectification, almost everything else is not.
You & whoever else subscribes to that baseless demonization can not & never will be able to read minds, you have no idea to what degree a individual cares about a person/character vs how much they care about their body/attractiveness.

You will not thought police us & you will not censor entertainment we pay equal price for over the worst case senario you dreamt up about how straight men see the world and the people around them.

EDIT - This forum's existence is proof what your saying is crap.
If men's minds cease to care about a character in anyway beyond the sexual the instant they see even a single shot meant to be such that they enjoy then no one would give a shit about Mistato because of her butt shot in 2.22.

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 7569
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:11 am

^ Yikes! Looks like someone is someone is sorting through some internalized demons through these straw-men arguments. Reading through this thread, it doesn't seem like anyone with which you're discussing has made any of the claims that you're trying to debunk.

Objectification works in several ways, and is mostly essential for social interactions and survival. All objectification does is take a complex individual and simplify it down to something that makes him/her more approachable in any given scenario. I don't need to know every stream-of-conciousness thought any given person has while they're talking with me, and, chances are, the person would be incapable of properly expressing it anyway. There isn't anything implicitly wrong with it unless someone uses objectification to project their own desires upon that individual. Which usually leads to...

Sexual Objectification. This is one someone simplifies an individual down to only something that's fuckable. It's almost never a helpful form of objectification. (In fact, it's never helpful. Even if it's used only in the bedroom and nowhere else, it can lead to a very shallow and frustrating sex life for both parties involved.)

Seeing as how these Amazonians will most likely be mere supporting cast members without very much screen time, the chances of these individuals being solely sexualized does increase exponentially, especially considering Snyder's other work. (Sucker Punch is an obvious example, but there are certain aspects of this present in the female characters of 300 and MoS.) Any strength displayed by these Amazonian can, if not contextualized properly, be more quickly and easily compared to Dominatrix fetishism than anything meaningful outside of the sexualized cornerstone of these characters.

Remember, though, these are simply the chances of these things happening in this movie. I haven't seen the movie myself yet, so I am in no position to definitively state that any of this is actually what is happening in the movie. I'm only stating that, given what we know of the director(s), their work, and the already limited screen time in JL for characterization, some things are very likely to come off as mere sexual objectification, even if that wasn't the intent of the directors in the first place. A lot of narrative mistakes can be made in whittling two entire movies down into one. Scenes that could have established the Amazonians as something not entirely sexual might be cut to give more screen time to introducing Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg, and, as a result, leaving the Amazonians in a place they weren't intended to be. Snyder already has some obvious failings with properly contextualizing his work to begin with (MoS and BvS are the most obvious examples of mutilated contextualization in story-telling, with the theatrical cut of Sucker Punch not far behind), that chances aren't that high that these lapses in narrative context will improve when he, Whedon, and the rest of the gang are already tasked with cutting the story down by over half (assuming there was normal "fat" to trim in editing if these were left as two films as originally planned).

Also, the recent revelations that Whedon interpreted Feminism as a cover for cheating on his wife doesn't help matters in his end, either. But that's less of an error in story-telling and more of Whedon simply coming from a pig-headed premise to begin with. (I can't wait to see his Batgirl reduced to a series of "Damages™" yet again.)

movieartman
Lilin
Lilin
Age: 26
Posts: 1903
Joined: Feb 24, 2014
Gender: Male

Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby movieartman » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:05 am

Let me be clear, I was not calling anyone in this thread psychotic, irrational or a spiteful sadist, I was talking strictly about the originators of said terms, male gaze & objectification.

I hold no hostility to you Chuckman or Gendo's Papa but I am baffled.
Like... if you see a woman's cleavage in real life and in the back of your head feel the equivalent of "that's nice" are you going to slap yourself as punishment for suposedly reducing her down to said cleavage?
Were the hell does this rabbit hole end?

Chuckman you lusted after Tomei in your Spider-Man Homecoming review (which is a 100% fine thing to do, she is a goddess)
Joke or not, When you thought out that statement, in your mind did you see her as...
1 - A fuckable object?
2 - A person?
3 - A person whose fuckability was a notable priority to you personally at that moment in time?

My point is... modern feminist are trying to force the idea that if we think such thoughts then we inherently see said woman as #1. When in reality it's #3.

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:but there are certain aspects of this present in the female characters of 300and MoS.) Any strength displayed by these Amazonian can, if not contextualized properly, be more quickly and easily compared to Dominatrix fetishism than anything meaningful outside of the sexualized cornerstone of these characters.

See here, I don't believe just showing off the Amazon's abs would be enough for it to come off like that, and I inherently disagree that there is anything wrong with it coming off as "dominatrix fetishism" for villains regardless. And considering Faora was one of the most universally well received aspects of Mos I think most would agree on that.

And for that matter take it up with Donner & Sarah Douglas in Superman 2 as Ursa was notably more dominatrix-ish then Snyder's Faora was.

Gendo'sPapa
First Ancestor
First Ancestor
User avatar
Posts: 4388
Joined: Oct 24, 2006
Location: At the Movies
Gender: Male

Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Gendo'sPapa » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:23 am

*Raises eyebrow."
A much needed conversation for another topic perhaps...

AAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNYYYYWHO, reviews are out for Justice League. Aside from the Twitter Bros with ALL IN as their account name, they are not good. My favorite though has to be Variety's which while slightly positive can only sum the movie up as "generic competence."

movieartman
Lilin
Lilin
Age: 26
Posts: 1903
Joined: Feb 24, 2014
Gender: Male

Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby movieartman » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:05 am

Agreed, moving on.
Deadpool 2 teaser.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-Cjsnq8kVU

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 7569
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:35 am

Contexualization is the only thing that we can use to determine the sexual objectification of these characters, and we don’t have that yet. And honestly, sexual expression/exploitation/whatever of any kind looks like it’ll be the least of JL’s structural and narrative integrity.

Quick note on MoS (because it is related to the topic at hand), the handling of Lois Lane’s character in there is a clear example of sexually objectifying a character without showing any cleavage. Her character in that movie is constructed entirely around her budding romantic interest in Superman, and literally nothing else. Lois Lane’s character is objectively an empty void where a personality should be, and she is solely defined by the film by her proximity to Superman’s character. (BvS would solve many of these issues, as her character is finally fleshed out in that film.) In this way, MoS achieves sexual objectification and a tunnel-visioned view guided heavily by the Male Gaze without needing her to take her clothes off.

I almost consider this a monumental feat in story-telling, even though it’s not particularly an example of good story-telling.

Ray
Elder God
Elder God
User avatar
Age: 24
Posts: 6351
Joined: Feb 10, 2014
Location: USA
Gender: Male

Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Ray » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:53 pm

Mr Sunday Movies gives his review Of JL. Well he did give it an initially positive review he later came to say he did not like bvs at all.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p9-dt0uZfuA

Jeremy Jhan's review. He liked Man of Steel and Suicide Squad and didn't like bvs at all.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pgjRX9oGF7g

Well I'm not exactly looking forward to seeing this tonal mess. Ill Soldier through it and I'll deal with my personal issues with the tone and 'lighthearted banter'. Like I said I'm not going to be happy with it, but if this means we can get more non Batman DC movies down the road? FINE.
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

Chuckman
Chuckman
Chuckman
User avatar
Age: 34
Posts: 8260
Joined: Nov 11, 2011
Location: Chuckman

Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Chuckman » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:02 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:^ Yikes! Looks like someone is someone is sorting through some internalized demons through these straw-men arguments. Reading through this thread, it doesn't seem like anyone with which you're discussing has made any of the claims that you're trying to debunk.

Objectification works in several ways, and is mostly essential for social interactions and survival. All objectification does is take a complex individual and simplify it down to something that makes him/her more approachable in any given scenario. I don't need to know every stream-of-conciousness thought any given person has while they're talking with me, and, chances are, the person would be incapable of properly expressing it anyway. There isn't anything implicitly wrong with it unless someone uses objectification to project their own desires upon that individual. Which usually leads to...

Sexual Objectification. This is one someone simplifies an individual down to only something that's fuckable. It's almost never a helpful form of objectification. (In fact, it's never helpful. Even if it's used only in the bedroom and nowhere else, it can lead to a very shallow and frustrating sex life for both parties involved.)

Seeing as how these Amazonians will most likely be mere supporting cast members without very much screen time, the chances of these individuals being solely sexualized does increase exponentially, especially considering Snyder's other work. (Sucker Punch is an obvious example, but there are certain aspects of this present in the female characters of 300 and MoS.) Any strength displayed by these Amazonian can, if not contextualized properly, be more quickly and easily compared to Dominatrix fetishism than anything meaningful outside of the sexualized cornerstone of these characters.

Remember, though, these are simply the chances of these things happening in this movie. I haven't seen the movie myself yet, so I am in no position to definitively state that any of this is actually what is happening in the movie. I'm only stating that, given what we know of the director(s), their work, and the already limited screen time in JL for characterization, some things are very likely to come off as mere sexual objectification, even if that wasn't the intent of the directors in the first place. A lot of narrative mistakes can be made in whittling two entire movies down into one. Scenes that could have established the Amazonians as something not entirely sexual might be cut to give more screen time to introducing Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg, and, as a result, leaving the Amazonians in a place they weren't intended to be. Snyder already has some obvious failings with properly contextualizing his work to begin with (MoS and BvS are the most obvious examples of mutilated contextualization in story-telling, with the theatrical cut of Sucker Punch not far behind), that chances aren't that high that these lapses in narrative context will improve when he, Whedon, and the rest of the gang are already tasked with cutting the story down by over half (assuming there was normal "fat" to trim in editing if these were left as two films as originally planned).

Also, the recent revelations that Whedon interpreted Feminism as a cover for cheating on his wife doesn't help matters in his end, either. But that's less of an error in story-telling and more of Whedon simply coming from a pig-headed premise to begin with. (I can't wait to see his Batgirl reduced to a series of "Damages™" yet again.)


ACTUAL EXCERPT OF JOSS WHEDONS BATGIRL SCRIPT

BATGIRL: Raar I am here to defeat you flirty villain!

FLIRTY VILLAIN: I ship us. Also, you can’t bave babies.

BATGIRL: Oh no, barenness! My only weakness! Suddenly I am helpless!

FLIRTY VILLAIN: Quickly, quirky henchman! Bathe her feet and bring her to me!

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Contexualization is the only thing that we can use to determine the sexual objectification of these characters, and we don’t have that yet. And honestly, sexual expression/exploitation/whatever of any kind looks like it’ll be the least of JL’s structural and narrative integrity.

Quick note on MoS (because it is related to the topic at hand), the handling of Lois Lane’s character in there is a clear example of sexually objectifying a character without showing any cleavage. Her character in that movie is constructed entirely around her budding romantic interest in Superman, and literally nothing else. Lois Lane’s character is objectively an empty void where a personality should be, and she is solely defined by the film by her proximity to Superman’s character. (BvS would solve many of these issues, as her character is finally fleshed out in that film.) In this way, MoS achieves sexual objectification and a tunnel-visioned view guided heavily by the Male Gaze without needing her to take her clothes off.

I almost consider this a monumental feat in story-telling, even though it’s not particularly an example of good story-telling.


I still think the best way to do a Superman movie would be to tell it as much as possible from Lois’ perspective and make her the main character.

I’d almost like to see a treatment of Superman like the treatment of Godzilla in the Legendary film, focusing on what these events look like from the ground, from a perspective of an ordinary person.

silvermoonlight
Leliel
Leliel
User avatar
Posts: 715
Joined: Jun 19, 2016
Location: UK
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby silvermoonlight » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:30 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:ACTUAL EXCERPT OF JOSS WHEDONS BATGIRL SCRIPT

BATGIRL: Raar I am here to defeat you flirty villain!

FLIRTY VILLAIN: I ship us. Also, you can’t bave babies.

BATGIRL: Oh no, barenness! My only weakness! Suddenly I am helpless!

FLIRTY VILLAIN: Quickly, quirky henchman! Bathe her feet and bring her to me!.


Yeah that's just how I see this going down along with the total wiping of the character being LGBT but then that might be for the better since Josh loves throwing LGBT characters under a bus in some way shape or form that always sucks.
Anywhere can be paradise as long as you have the will to live. After all, you are alive, so you will always have the chance to be happy.

My Eva fanfiction ff.net Fading In To The Stolen Light For download version please go to AO3

movieartman
Lilin
Lilin
Age: 26
Posts: 1903
Joined: Feb 24, 2014
Gender: Male

Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby movieartman » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:44 pm

View Original Postsilvermoonlight wrote:Yeah that's just how I see this going down along with the total wiping of the character being LGBT but then that might be for the better since Josh loves throwing LGBT characters under a bus in some way shape or form that always sucks.

Kate Kane / Batwoman is the Lesbian not Barbara Gordon / Batgirl whom the movie will be about.

Chuckman
Chuckman
Chuckman
User avatar
Age: 34
Posts: 8260
Joined: Nov 11, 2011
Location: Chuckman

Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Chuckman » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:41 pm

I have my ticket for tomorrow night.

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 7569
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:38 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:I still think the best way to do a Superman movie would be to tell it as much as possible from Lois’ perspective and make her the main character.

I’d almost like to see a treatment of Superman like the treatment of Godzilla in the Legendary film, focusing on what these events look like from the ground, from a perspective of an ordinary person.

I wanna make this movie. Somebody write me a script and we'll pitch it to the estate of Superman co-creator Jerome Siegel.

We gotta set it in the 40's. That's my only other requirement.

Chuckman
Chuckman
Chuckman
User avatar
Age: 34
Posts: 8260
Joined: Nov 11, 2011
Location: Chuckman

Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Chuckman » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:23 am

A period piece Superman would be great but I think the idea of the Lois-centric film works better if set in the modern day. Through her we can see how Superman is received through social media, etc.

Hell, make it contemporary. No hidebound Perry White at the Daily Planet building in down town Metropolis. She's a skeptical, bitter reporter for a noteworthy but not huge blog that focuses mostly on politics and they've just been acquired by a media giant, so now she's under pressure to drop the Lex Luthor stuff she's been writing about in favor of broader puff pieces and her editor is a jackass who wants to put clickbait titles on her stories and make her write for slideshow articles. Focus on building a sense of a real person in a real world, and then a man comes out of the sky and catches a crashing airplane with his bare hands.

I think that's what feels flawed in the DCCU. If you're going to follow this mythological figure through his birth and first exploration of his powers and place in the world it pushes everything else aside. It's hard to make a film "about Superman" the way MoS was trying to be while having be about Superman. It pushes everything else to the side and we ends up with a lot of telling rather than showing.


Return to “Film and Video”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests