Transition guides

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Re: Transition guides

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Postby CommanderFish » Tue May 16, 2017 12:28 am

Kendrix wrote:For all we know his upper half exploded into tang in the "real world" and the rest of him is just taking a bit longer, like Maya's hand - he was supposed to just melt in the draft.

Maya is proof that a person can be tanged while still leaving a part of their physical body behind. Good point and I'm ashamed that I did not put that together sooner.
That's not 100% proof that Gendo was tanged too, though (although this is what I tend to believe regardless, and find most reasonable). Where's the source on him melting in the draft? I would be rather curious to see it.
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Re: Transition guides

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Postby Kendrix » Tue May 16, 2017 2:00 am

View Original PostCommanderFish wrote:Where's the source on him melting in the draft? I would be rather curious to see it.


IIRC its somewhere on the wiki
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Re: Transition guides

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Postby Reichu » Tue May 16, 2017 3:31 am

View Original PostCommanderFish wrote:Maya is proof that a person can be tanged while still leaving a part of their physical body behind.

She melts so explosively that her hand flies off, but we see it splash across the laptop's screen. There wasn't much of a delay.

Where's the source on him melting in the draft? I would be rather curious to see it.

I went ahead and added the translation. Not much to look at, but it shows that the scene went through drastic transformations after this draft.

My take is that, in the final version, Gendo wasn't turned into LCL (during our watch, anyway) because his soul was procured in another way -- by being eaten, and, thus, taken into Eva-01 directly. (The creepy Eva-01 is channeling Yui's look from episode #19, when she infamously absorbed something into her core by nomming on it.) What Gendo experiences is real, but can only be perceived by him. So a random onlooker might see him get pulled to his feet by an invisible force, and then, suddenly, his upper body vanishes into thin air and his glasses fall to the ground a short distance away. It's possible his corpse doesn't fall over because Rei is still present, and thus the "invisible hand" is still holding him up.
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Re: Transition guides

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Postby Bagheera » Tue May 16, 2017 3:47 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:My take is that, in the final version, Gendo wasn't turned into LCL (during our watch, anyway) because his soul was procured in another way -- by being eaten, and, thus, taken into Eva-01 directly. (The creepy Eva-01 is channeling Yui's look from episode #19, when she infamously absorbed something into her core by nomming on it.) What Gendo experiences is real, but can only be perceived by him. So a random onlooker might see him get pulled to his feet by an invisible force, and then, suddenly, his upper body vanishes into thin air and his glasses fall to the ground a short distance away. It's possible his corpse doesn't fall over because Rei is still present, and thus the "invisible hand" is still holding him up.


The problems being that Unit 01 isn't there, and that it's rather peculiar to have Rei take an active role that doesn't involve her collecting his soul. It smacks of special pleading to me.

I say he was tanged like everyone else, and that the visuals are artistic license.
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Re: Transition guides

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Postby Reichu » Tue May 16, 2017 4:05 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:The problems being that Unit 01 isn't there, and that it's rather peculiar to have Rei take an active role that doesn't involve her collecting his soul.

Kaworu and Yui can both appear to Gendo. Both Adam and Eva-01 are merged with Lilith at this time, and Lilith exhibits an ability to appear anywhere (despite being physically located in Kanto) -- so we can probably assume that Adam and Eva are taking advantage of the same mechanisms that Lilith is.

We're given a transition with Yui, from pink blouse to purple turtleneck, and the only real purpose of this would be to link her with Eva-01 and let us know that, yes, she's acting as Gendo's spirit guide here. The exact logistics don't matter, because we're dealing with gods and they can do whatever the movie wants them to do.

Rei 3 standing there at the end has her hands posed as if she's holding something, but whatever it is we can't see it. This brings the image of Lilith holding the Black Moon to mind, but I don't think this is pointless miming -- rather, it's a clue. Lilith holds the collected souls of humanity between her palms -- so here, at Gendo's special induction ceremony, what could this manifestation of Rei be holding but Gendo's soul? This may seem paradoxical, if Eva-01 already obtained the soul by eating it, but assuming Yui is only able to manifest on the spot by piggybacking off Lilith's AATF, then everything pans out.
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Re: Transition guides

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Postby Bagheera » Tue May 16, 2017 4:28 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Kaworu and Yui can both appear to Gendo. Both Adam and Eva-01 are merged with Lilith at this time, and Lilith exhibits an ability to appear anywhere (despite being physically located in Kanto) -- so we can probably assume that Adam and Eva are taking advantage of the same mechanisms that Lilith is.


I don't think that follows, but even so:

Rei 3 standing there at the end has her hands posed as if she's holding something, but whatever it is we can't see it. This brings the image of Lilith holding the Black Moon to mind, but I don't think this is pointless miming -- rather, it's a clue. Lilith holds the collected souls of humanity between her palms -- so here, at Gendo's special induction ceremony, what could this manifestation of Rei be holding but Gendo's soul? This may seem paradoxical, if Eva-01 already obtained the soul by eating it, but assuming Yui is only able to manifest on the spot by piggybacking off Lilith's AATF, then everything pans out.


Not IMO. Instead it suggests Rei/Lilith collected Gendo's soul just like everyone else's, and that there was nothing particularly special about Gendo's case after all.

And honestly, think about this . . . you're explaining away straightforward symbolism by assuming that Yui is piggybacking off of Lilith's AATF, so you can claim Yui took Gendo's soul instead of Rei/Lilith. That involves begging the question on top of special pleading, and to make matters worse it doesn't address the issues that make Gendo's case seem like an exception to begin with (specifically, his lower torso!).
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The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Transition guides

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Postby Kendrix » Tue May 16, 2017 6:06 am

^It would be redundant too as Lillith would swallow EVA 01 later and was already "resonating" with it to some degree. She could theoretically collect him from there if she wanted to 'keep' him the way her manga self does, though I think original!Yui would want him to give living on earth another shot, granted, his manga self was "The Dark Side will Make You Forget" levels of crazier so that could be seen as Yui taking responsibility.

- In any cae I'd sayRei III is shown nekkid & mimicking Lillith's pose to basically show her association with Lillith (though her earlier dialogue there might be a sense of "Oh, so that's why you did it" & pitying him rather than continuing to hate him), while Rei II is in clothes & with the bandages we first met her in also to distinguish her through attributes, and of course she collects the glasses.
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Re: Transition guides

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Postby Reichu » Tue May 16, 2017 7:23 am

Bagheera: I had a lengthier response typed up, but I think it would be best if you first committed to the art of engaging in discussion sans logical fallacy recitation. Knowing the fallacies is good for avoiding them yourself (hypothetically), but, take it from not-me, accusing other people of them is something best avoided.
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