Transition guides

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Transition guides

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Postby Snow » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:06 pm

Now, what are exactly the mechanics behind the transition guides that come to turn the party into a pool of LCL? As far as i do understand, they are the ones to ''guide'' the souls to instrumentality, but i do not understand how they actually do this.
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Postby Bagheera » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:46 pm

View Original PostSnow wrote:Now, what are exactly the mechanics behind the transition guides that come to turn the party into a pool of LCL? As far as i do understand, they are the ones to ''guide'' the souls to instrumentality, but i do not understand how they actually do this.


I'm not even sure they're a thing per se so much as a visual metaphor for what Rei/Lilith is doing at the time, i.e. intensifying the global anti-ATF such that individual beings lose their physical form and then collecting the souls (somehow) and doing her thing with the Black Moon. So, I think it's less a question of how the transition guides work than of how Lilith grabs hold of the souls and moves them to where she wants them. AFAIK this is never addressed.
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Re: Transition guides

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Postby Reichu » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:21 pm

I'm fairly certain that they're a "thing", since they're shown to have both reflections and mass. The Eva-01 that comes for Gendo's upper half seems to be produced by the same mechanism.

My impression is that Lilith's Anti A.T. Field is actually a highly specialized use of her A.T. Field. In other words, it's a gigantic manifestation of her ego (in the Jungian sense of the word), so overpowering that it's like forcing everyone in the world to have a 400% sync rate with her. Unless you have a god-caliber ATF, like the Evas, you're going to explode into goop.

If we accept that the AATF is a manifestation of Lilith's self, this could also go toward explaining how it allows versions of her to (at least seem to) appear in billions of places at once. EoE seems to treat these as all emerging from the AATF's substrate simultaneously, so perhaps they are better regarded as semi-corporeal "extensions" of Lilith's soul that come into existence to carry out their purpose -- that is, to be spirit guides -- and then, upon finishing their mission, cease to be. This interpretation could potentially resolve what exactly is going on here. This is a very dense image, but essentially boils down to these components:

(1) Three streams comprised entirely of countless swimming Rei, converging toward a common point.
(2) The point of convergence is represented as a red-tinted moon.
(3) The background is full of what appear to be naked, drowned human corpses.
(4) The far background is the familiar "red space" motif (= we're in the "spirit realm" now).

If you notice here, the souls coming to Lilith split into three streams: one going into each Gate of Guf, and one going directly into the top of the Black Moon. Three streams of souls, three streams of Rei? I would say that there's a correspondence. A way to interpret the "swimming Reis" visual, then, is that these are the spirit guides who have brought humanity's souls (represented as drowned corpses) back into the Chamber of Guf. Their job finished, we can see them converging back together into one. Since Lilith is shown holding the Black Moon much as if it were her core, the image of a red moon is used here to represent Lilith's spiritual center.
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Postby Chuckman » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:46 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:I'm fairly certain that they're a "thing", since they're shown to have both reflections and mass. The Eva-01 that comes for Gendo's upper half seems to be produced by the same mechanism.


I agree they are a thing, but for the sake of devil's advocacy I have to point out that if someone can hallucinate a lover/Rei in response to an energy field they can hallucinate seeing that entity's reflection in water or hallucinate being eaten by an Eva.
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Re: Transition guides

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Postby Reichu » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:07 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:they can hallucinate seeing that entity's reflection in water or hallucinate being eaten by an Eva.

(A) The reflection is seen when the Reis are melting down the dead, hence it is there purely for our benefit.
(B) Gendo's lower body is standing there with viscera hanging out after Eva-01 vanishes. It actually happened.
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Postby Joseki » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:58 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:(A) The reflection is seen when the Reis are melting down the dead, hence it is there purely for our benefit.
(B) Gendo's lower body is standing there with viscera hanging out after Eva-01 vanishes. It actually happened.


I'm quite sure that a body just being ripped apart can't stand on its own. Also Gendo's glasses were not consumed by Eva-01, so I'm not sure how real Gendo's last moments were.
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Re: Transition guides

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Postby Reichu » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:25 pm

Eh, Gendo's corpse standing there makes about as much sense as the fact that Evas can hold ridiculous poses even when their muscles are receiving no energy. Some things you just have to roll with. In this case, the position his half -corpse is in corresponds to the upright position Gendo took as soon as Eva-01 appeared. Recall he was on his back beforehand.

The glasses remain for what are, I would assume, symbolically loaded reasons. They represent his ATF, which has been cast aside with his admission into HIP.

Note we see Rei 2 interacting with the aftermath of Gendo's transition. Are you also conflicted about whether this actually happens...?
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:56 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Note we see Rei 2 interacting with the aftermath of Gendo's transition. Are you also conflicted about whether this actually happens...?


Since Rei II is long since dead and Rei III has been absorbed into Lilith by that point, well . . .

I think using that scene as evidence of much of anything going on in the real world is extremely dodgy, personally.
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Postby Chuckman » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:37 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:(B) Gendo's lower body is standing there with viscera hanging out after Eva-01 vanishes. It actually happened.


I don't agree with this at all. A partially armored Eva picked up up in a featureless void and bit him in half and gingerly sat his lower body down on his feet?
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Postby Reichu » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:02 pm

I'm seeing a lot of "this couldn't have happened", but not as much of "this is actually what happened, but Anno chose to depict it in such a way because..."

Chuck, I think the very fact that Gendo's corpse is shown to us after the "red void" goes away is significant. Red is used heavily in EoE to represent the "spirit world", so I think the purpose there was to show the fate of Gendo's soul (being taken into Eva-01 by Yui herself). Afterward, we're shown the "real world" once more. That shot certainly isn't there for Gendo's benefit, so who can it be for, other than us the audience?
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:30 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:I'm seeing a lot of "this couldn't have happened", but not as much of "this is actually what happened, but Anno chose to depict it in such a way because..."


" . . . of reasons that are heavily subject to interpretation, which suggests we should't get too invested in any particular reading of the scene."

Chuck, I think the very fact that Gendo's corpse is shown to us after the "red void" goes away is significant. Red is used heavily in EoE to represent the "spirit world", so I think the purpose there was to show the fate of Gendo's soul (being taken into Eva-01 by Yui herself). Afterward, we're shown the "real world" once more. That shot certainly isn't there for Gendo's benefit, so who can it be for, other than us the audience?


It's there for our benefit, but that doesn't mean we're meant to assume the guy was literally bitten in half in the real world. IMO we just have to roll with it, as you said, and probably assume he got tanged like everyone else but that Anno chose to depict it like he did so we'd have the visceral satisfaction of seeing Gendo get what he deserved (and before you jump on that too hard recall that that take is not dissimilar to your rationale for why we see his glasses at the end even though he was clearly wearing them when Unit 01 bit him in half).
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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:00 pm

I'm more inclined to Bagheera and Chuck's takes... or rather, I share their skepticism regarding the reality of what happened with Gendo and the transition guides. Reichu, I like your idea about not being able to maintain form because GNR's ATF or AATF is essentially causing others to "sync over 400%" for a lack of a better way of putting it. When Angels can use ATF's as effectively as Kaworu does, it makes sense that a being more powerful than an angel would be able to manifest bodies of any desired shape anywhere and anytime it chooses using it's ATF and cause the collapse of others'.

Honestly though, I feel like pre-instrumentality (Shinji stomping on pyramid and choking Asuka etc.) and onward through instrumentality are periods of time where it isn't really possible to take anything at face value. It reminds me of Satoshi Kon's style of storytelling (Perfect Blue, Paprika, Paranoid Agent), where the line between fantasy and reality blurs and what you see has the qualities of being real and unreal at the same time, and as you watch you realize what you see isn't necessarily what really happened. You're left to piece together what may have actually transpired, but in the end you realize it doesn't really matter that much.

The transition guides being sent out to collect souls mirrors the concept of the grim reaper, and there have been some interesting views on that prospect. Take the movie Jacob's Ladder, when his doctor says: "Eckhart saw Hell too. He said: “The only thing that burns in Hell is the part of you that won’t let go of life, your memories, your attachments. They burn them all away. But they’re not punishing you”, he said. “They’re freeing your soul. So, if you’re frightened of dying and ... you’re holding on, you’ll see devils tearing your life away. But if you’ve made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.”" I've always been under the impression that the form that the reaper Reis take depends on that person's desires and feelings towards themselves, and either they received the salvation they felt they needed or faced the retribution they knew they deserved.

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Postby Reichu » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:31 pm

I think that there are too many indications that the spirit guides have an element of physical reality to them to be simply brushed off as inscrutable Eva weirdness. There are a lot of downright bizarre and "impossible" things in EoE that must be accepted as actually happening in some sense, and I fail to see how this topic deserve a special exception. Run with the "it's just vaguely symbolic for what's REALLY happening" approach far enough, and you end up flattened against the "it's all in so-and-so's head" or "everything is a dream" brick wall.

EoE tends to be fairly unambiguous when it depicts purely metaphysical scenes -- that is, the ones that occur within "mindscapes" or the "spirit world". Can the sandbox scene or proto-HIP really be mistaken for things that are physically occurring? Is there really any confusion about when we leave the uncertain world of HIP and once again depict the exterior world? Unlike EoTV, which takes place entirely within a metaphysical space, EoE goes back and forth, and the transitions are fairly clear, IMO. In this thread, I'm seeing, to my own considerable confusion, rather unambiguous "real world" portions being rejected as subjective, when this is not how they're presented by the filmmaker.

The only parts of the "Rei Death Squad" sequence that I think can be taken for granted as "subjective" are these:

(1) The appearances of the spirit guides varies depending on who is beholding them. ("This Rei is your heart - your hopes and dreams. What do you desire?")
(2) Gendo's death.

Regarding (2), I must note that the part of this scene which is presented metaphysically has a very distinct end. This transition occurs, not incidentally, with Gendo being crushed in Eva-01's jaws. He is dead, and so showing his personal experience of this event is no longer possible. At this point, entirely by design, the movie moves back to the real world -- I would assume not so that the reaction can be "pfft, that's totally not real", but "whoa, so something weird really did happen to Gendo". How else would you expect Anno to get this idea across? By using reverse psychology? (Maybe if he showed Gendo's remains in the "red void", you folks would think it was real? Doubtful...!)
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:54 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:I think that there are too many indications that the spirit guides have an element of physical reality to them to be simply brushed off as inscrutable Eva weirdness. There are a lot of downright bizarre and "impossible" things in EoE that must be accepted as actually happening in some sense, and I fail to see how this topic deserve a special exception. Run with the "it's just vaguely symbolic for what's REALLY happening" approach far enough, and you end up flattened against the "it's all in so-and-so's head" or "everything is a dream" brick wall.


I think it's less that than that you seem to be trying to eat your cake and still have it. When people point out artifacts like the glasses and Gendo's legs standing unaided (or at all), you invoke symbolism and tell them to just roll with it. But when they respond by pointing out that the whole scene can be viewed as symbolic rather than something happening in reality you insist there must be a divide between Instrumentality and reality (which doesn't even make sense given the existence of the transition guides, but that's a separate issue) even though it creates rather obvious inconsistencies. You can't have it both ways.

The nice thing about the "it's all symbolism, he got tanged just like everyone else" approach? It explains the glasses rather handily. Instrumentality or no, the man behind them is gone.
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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:46 pm

Lol my whole post was really meant to get across the point that the details on whether it was physically happening or all in somebody's mind (or whatever) doesn't actually matter. I still agree with Bags more on this one, but does it actually matter that much which is the case? My point is that we saw what we saw, and the creator made it in such a way that you are left to decide for yourself while at the same time letting whatever you decide have no or next to no real ramifications on the actual story or what really happened. I understand it's a bit contentious as to whether Gendo was actually tanged or not, but it doesn't make sense that he would be excluded. Looking past that, it was all just artistic license; whatever answer we come up with has no bearing on what happened. That's why I compared it to Satoshi Kon's works.

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Postby Chuckman » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:10 pm

A quick note on the lesser point: I maintain that everything after Third Impact actually begins until the beach scene takes place in a metaphorical place where continuity (in a film-making sense, not a dork sense), causation, and the logic of the physical world are eschewed in favor of pure story.

Okay, to the topic:

The in-universe explanation as I understand it is that the transition guides are a manifestation of the massive anti-AT-field hitting and breaking the individual AT-fields of living things, like people but not trees.

Now that I think on it I'm not sure it's ever explicitly stated why souls return to Lilith/the Lilith-Adam Creature/whatever instead of just floating off or dissipating.

I'll fanwank up a few explanations:

1. Lilith/Adam is a massive body and the souls are little ones, they're automatically drawn back into the main mass and glob back into it.

2. Disembodied souls are, by default, part of the final gestalt being that forms in EoE, which is fifth-dimensional or timeless. Destruction of the body, either via biological death or popping the at-field, breaks the temporary linearality that comes from smushing a little chunk of a godhead into a blob of organic goop.

If you read the film/series itself it's fairly open to interpretation and how you see it is going to depend on how you see Instrumentality: Is it a glorious rejoining into a god of pure love who cherishes everyone (because she is everyone) or suicide? Depends on where you stand.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:35 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:but not trees.


All who inhabit The Green are very disappointed with you, sahib.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Postby Chuckman » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:19 pm

We settled that long ago. I was just winking.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:23 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:We settled that long ago. I was just winking.


I know! :wink:
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Transition guides

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Postby Kendrix » Mon May 15, 2017 3:50 pm

View Original PostJoseki wrote:I'm quite sure that a body just being ripped apart can't stand on its own. Also Gendo's glasses were not consumed by Eva-01, so I'm not sure how real Gendo's last moments were.


For all we know his upper half exploded into tang in the "real world" and the rest of him is just taking a bit longer, like Maya's hand - he was supposed to just melt in the draft.
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