Regarding Shinji and Kaworu

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Timesplitter 01
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Postby Timesplitter 01 » Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:26 pm

the-artist-known-as-chris wrote:
Hexon.Arq wrote:Well, based on what I figured I knew about Kaoru, I would assume that the reason he is killing a cat is to free it from this existence. In his mind, it might be an act of compassion, or merely to illustrate all that stuff he said in the anime about how death is the only absolute freedom, bla, bla, bla. I don't think Sadamoto would go so far as to make such a known-as-being-loving character into a cold-blooded killer. In a way, won't we all be that kitten some day... or Kaoru?

We really need that translated.


Indeed, I mean common. Kaoru befriends Shinji, a boy with no selfesteam and who has never felt love or compassion, and then totally betrays him. Yet people flip beacuse he killed a cat?


Kawrou is not a bad person just misunderstood
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Postby Dave » Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:58 pm

Just because you love someone doesn't mean you want to fuck them. I love my pet dog, does that mean I am some sort of animal fetish fag? No, I don't think so. Friendship is a kind of love isn't it? Kaworu is quite unique: he sees no reason to hide his feelings and therefore, he doesn't.
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Postby Timesplitter 01 » Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:02 pm

Dave wrote:Just because you love someone doesn't mean you want to fuck them.


Ok then , lol

True , but couldnt you say it in another wat ,lol.
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Postby Phaze » Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:28 pm

We all seem to be arguing the same point to one another...
Just for the record, I don't believe Kaworu had any homosexual tendencies towards Shinji.
Kaworu is basically the christ figure of the series, he sacrifices himself for all of humanity. It's the same way how Jesus can have unconditional, though not sexual love for people. He loved all of humanity, not just Shinji.
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Postby the-artist-known-as-chris » Sun Aug 08, 2004 10:32 pm

Timesplitter 01 wrote:
the-artist-known-as-chris wrote:
Hexon.Arq wrote:Well, based on what I figured I knew about Kaoru, I would assume that the reason he is killing a cat is to free it from this existence. In his mind, it might be an act of compassion, or merely to illustrate all that stuff he said in the anime about how death is the only absolute freedom, bla, bla, bla. I don't think Sadamoto would go so far as to make such a known-as-being-loving character into a cold-blooded killer. In a way, won't we all be that kitten some day... or Kaoru?

We really need that translated.


Indeed, I mean common. Kaoru befriends Shinji, a boy with no selfesteam and who has never felt love or compassion, and then totally betrays him. Yet people flip beacuse he killed a cat?


Kawrou is not a bad person just misunderstood


I never said he was a bad person, just that he did a bad thing to somone who was suppose to be his friend.

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Postby max3000 » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:22 am

I'm still alive dammit! Learn how to aim! Oich! it's hard to get good help these days..
Last edited by max3000 on Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby MongolSquad » Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:27 pm

Phaze wrote:We all seem to be arguing the same point to one another...
Just for the record, I don't believe Kaworu had any homosexual tendencies towards Shinji.
Kaworu is basically the christ figure of the series, he sacrifices himself for all of humanity. It's the same way how Jesus can have unconditional, though not sexual love for people. He loved all of humanity, not just Shinji.


I don't see Kawrou as a Christ figure. But I like the "unconditional, though not sexual love for people". Kawrou did not worry about how he showed his love, he simply left in the open. Unfortunately, to many people, the way Kawrou acts seems homo-sexual which is just a huge misunderstanding becasue they don't take the time and examine Kawrou's true intentions.

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Postby KaworuNagisa17 » Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:34 pm

oh my GOD, that pic :x

damn Sadamoto to hell for that! do that to my favorite secondary character in all of anime, will you?!? :evil:

as for this yaoi fanboy's opinion on their relationship???
sure, I'd ENJOY them to be together for real....but I just love Eva's story too much to see it get fucked up by them having sex one night :?

was it beautiful? yes
was it enjoyable? yes
was it strictly platonic? heeeelll yes

I think they just became friends and that's how special it was to Shinji, especially after losing everyone else in one way or another. Kaworu was just an angel too...like This is Otakudom jokes, that don't count, right? hahah. Nah, seriously, he has no gender and probably didn't know of love between humans at the time. Because of Shinji, he did learn it and because of this, chose to sacrifice himself so that Shinji could live just that little much more time.

I got a doujin at Otakon 2004 of the two. Surprisingly and thankfully, there is no sex in it. Hell, ignoring some parts of it (Shinji in NERV psych ward after killing Kaworu...but that still coulda happened), it could be incognito w/ episode 24. e-mail or AIM me if you want the title/author 8)
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Postby Gilgamesh » Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:30 pm

KaworuNagisa17 wrote:oh my GOD, that pic :x

damn Sadamoto to hell for that! do that to my favorite secondary character in all of anime, will you?!? :evil:

as for this yaoi fanboy's opinion on their relationship???
sure, I'd ENJOY them to be together for real....but I just love Eva's story too much to see it get fucked up by them having sex one night :?

was it beautiful? yes
was it enjoyable? yes
was it strictly platonic? heeeelll yes

I think they just became friends and that's how special it was to Shinji, especially after losing everyone else in one way or another. Kaworu was just an angel too...like This is Otakudom jokes, that don't count, right? hahah. Nah, seriously, he has no gender and probably didn't know of love between humans at the time. Because of Shinji, he did learn it and because of this, chose to sacrifice himself so that Shinji could live just that little much more time.

I got a doujin at Otakon 2004 of the two. Surprisingly and thankfully, there is no sex in it. Hell, ignoring some parts of it (Shinji in NERV psych ward after killing Kaworu...but that still coulda happened), it could be incognito w/ episode 24. e-mail or AIM me if you want the title/author 8)


I don't understand how people make the argument that Kaoru didn't know about social taboos of human society and about human love and that kind of stuff. I mean, he's spent fourteen years of his life among the Lillim, hasn't he? I don't see how he couldn't know about all of that.

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Postby Cyanna » Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:36 pm

So did Rei and she sure stuck out. Almost all of her classmates thought she was rather strange.

If the manga is any indication of Kaworu's past...he and Rei have an awful lot in common looking at the world from the inside of a tube.

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Postby advent_child » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:46 am

Dave wrote:Just because you love someone doesn't mean you want to fuck them. I love my pet dog, does that mean I am some sort of animal fetish fag? No, I don't think so. Friendship is a kind of love isn't it? Kaworu is quite unique: he sees no reason to hide his feelings and therefore, he doesn't.

Indeed..

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Postby Cyanna » Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:49 pm

Cut and posted from a long post I made in Gaia.

At some point near the end of the serious part, I was kinda rambling and I think I may have accidently stumbled onto something. Of course I could have been going crackers and just pulled something out of my bum. But if it sparks someone's interest....then why not run with it? ;)

I don't think he's gay.

And no...I'm not just saying that to satisfy the fact that I am somewhat fangirlish over pairing Rei and Kaworu.

I see Kaworu to be a mirrored image of Rei, so alike and yet polar opposites. Sexuality really doesn't seem to play a role in that.

Rei admits to Shinji that she doesn't know what to feel or what to do when she sees him crying. I think she is perfectly capable of emotion but she doesn't know how to express herself. She is so limited because she does simply what she is told to do.

Kaworu on the other hand...well...he's known as the "Angel of Free Will" for a reason. He is not restrainted by the rules of society and expresses his feelings as he pleases. If someone needs comforting, he is not afraid of embarrassment and he comforts them. To the eyes of others, he may come off as being very forward and perhaps even rude! (asking all those personal questions)

Either way...Rei and Kaworu do not fit in with the other kids. Rei could be the most introverted character in the series. Kaworu could be the most extroverted. Even more then Asuka....when she first showed up she wasn't exactly asking personal questions or invading your space bubble unprovoked (except to slap you in the face for looking at her panties). Rei is usually very melancholy. Kaworu seems to be wearing a constant smile (or smirk). Both are softspoken and never raise their voices.

Both have a connection with Shinji. Rei reminds him very much of his mother (for obvious reasons). Kaworu was kind to him. I think he really did love Shinji. Not as a lover, but as family...something his father (see where I'm going?) was never able to give him. I think Shinji being open to Kaworu and talking about the relationship he has with his father, something he has never told anyone else about AND the vision of Kaworu and Rei standing side by side talking to him towards the end of EoE is something to notice.

/serious portion of this post


Even after it's all over....who ends up on the beach with Shinji?

And who is seen standing side by side with Kaworu (and is about as dead as Kaworu too.)?

/fangirlish reasoning

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Postby Dave » Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:15 pm

Rei and Kaworu, Lilith and Adam. What more do you need?
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Postby Tabris » Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:50 pm

It's kind of amusing just how much people get worked up over this subject, pretty much anywhere and everywhere it happens to be brought up (even more so than Misato's kiss in EoE that's far less ambiguous). There's both 'evidence' for and against the argument that either Shinji or Kaworu were gay, or at least showed signs of attraction, but even if they were, so what? Does it really change anything, or detract from the point the story is making?

Personally I'm not sure if they were or weren't, but to me it doesn't matter. It's interesting to note that while some of us accept Kaworu 'loved' Shinji, and Shinji probably didn't 'love' him back in quite the same way, Shinji was greeted by the visage of Kaworu in EoE's TI, in the same way as the NERV staff were greeted by those they loved or wished to see. If Shinji had loved Asuka more, why didn't he see a vision of her instead?

As for the kitten-snuff incident... I don't have vol. 9, unfortunately, (my order at Midtowncomics has fallen into a wormhole or something) but I know about that part, and I'm guessing that it's probably there to show that both characters learn something from it (Shinji probably realises that a life considered valuable still has to be protected, while I suppose Kaworu is busy wondering why humans are such a bunch of whiny freaks :wink: ). I don't have it yet though, just speculating...

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Postby Reichu » Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:31 pm

Tabris wrote:Personally I'm not sure if they were or weren't, but to me it doesn't matter. It's interesting to note that while some of us accept Kaworu 'loved' Shinji, and Shinji probably didn't 'love' him back in quite the same way, Shinji was greeted by the visage of Kaworu in EoE's TI, in the same way as the NERV staff were greeted by those they loved or wished to see. If Shinji had loved Asuka more, why didn't he see a vision of her instead?


Don't forget that the movie was making a point about the presence of Adam/Kaworu within Giant Naked Rei. It makes more sense for Rei to turn into Kaworu because Kaworu WAS in there, and it emphasises the point about the Rei/Lilith-Kaworu/Adam parallelism. Not to mention it inserts a pointless reference to the idea of a dyad God (both male and female), during the short time that GNR is simultaneously split into Rei and Kaworu.

As far as Shinji seeing a vision of Asuka -- he arguably did, when the question was asked, "What is it that you desire?"

Image

Image

It's identified only as a "woman covering her chest" -- but, come on. We know who that's supposed to be. (Incidentally, Asuka was originally to have covered her chest as she stood naked by the bathtub in #22', but in the final she only clutches her side. They still have her covering her chest during the mind rape, when she screams, "No! This isn't the real me!")

Although by the same token, one really can't just discount the face that Shinji puts on after being greeted by a Giant Naked Kaworu -- according to the script, it is one of "ecstacy".

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Postby Dave » Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:29 pm

That could also be Yui as little itty baby Shinji remembered her.
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Postby Tabris » Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:40 pm

Yui never had long hair like that, though... not even in the flashbacks of her breastfeeding Shinji, right? Although it could be some kind of generic mother-figure, of course. I'm a little more swayed by the idea it's Asuka (or even Misato - isn't there a flashed sketch of her covering her chest in the opening credits of the series?)

Other than that, he does seem decidedly happier to see GNK than he did to see GNR...

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Postby Dave » Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:53 pm

Your right, I totally ignored the long hair cue. My mistake. :shock:
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Postby Reichu » Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:10 am

Tabris wrote:Yui never had long hair like that, though... not even in the flashbacks of her breastfeeding Shinji, right?


Yui is shown with long hair when Shinji is embraced by her in #16, but I actually have a theory about that.

Although it could be some kind of generic mother-figure, of course. I'm a little more swayed by the idea it's Asuka (or even Misato - isn't there a flashed sketch of her covering her chest in the opening credits of the series?)


The hair more resembles Asuka's, IMO. Also, Asuka's boobies generally seemed to be a more prominent "theme" in NGE than Misato's (even if the latter's were exploited as fan service). Don't believe me?

Other than that, he does seem decidedly happier to see GNK than he did to see GNR...


Well, after #23, he does say that Ayanami scares him. A ginormous, white, naked, moaning version would presumably be something to shit his pants over.

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Postby Tabris » Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:19 am

I guess the fact Asuka was left with Shinji at the end of EoE and not Kaworu can't be ignored. (Although... I'm more of the mind that Shinji didn't bring her back for himself, or at least not all by himself, because of Yui's statement about the 'will to live' and returning; and Asuka had a strong will and a tendency to separate herself from others. If he did deliberately bring her back, when he could've brought anyone back... well, that's probably all we need to affirm Shinji wasn't gay, since it's safe to assume Kaworu would've made better company based on Shinji's previous experience of the two characters). *shrug*


(manga spoiler... ish)
The long-haired Yui... what's your theory on that, Reichu? I noted the long-haired female figure approaching and then 'becoming' an Eva in vol. 1 of Sadamoto's manga, which I found confusing, since Shinji identifies this seemingly unknown figure as mother, but later fails to immediately recognise a figure resembling Yui as she has always appeared in the series (vol.8 ). Then later, while rejecting the Eva's desire to become one, he sees the same longer-haired figure escape from it. That's why I've usually thought of it as a generic or instinctive mother-figure to him (since he can't even remember what his mother looks like). Is that picture of the woman holding her chest definitely identified as Asuka, then? If so, I guess she is indeed and unquestionably Shinji's desire.

Although there is the ever-intriguing matter of Shinji's blushing... The words 'Anno' and 'screwing withour heads again' comes to mind.


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