Anyone else feel dislike towards EoE nowadays?

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Re: Anyone else feel dislike towards EoE nowadays?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:59 am

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:If he was really suicidal, why wouldn't he just sit fully exposed in the middle of the hallway?
And get in people's way as they went back and forth? Come on, it is Shinji we're talking about here -- he wouldn't make an obtrusive nuisance of himself like that; he's far too self-effacing for that.

He just stuck himself somewhere he could indulge in his funk. Not trying to get away from oncoming threat was passively suicidal rather than an active seeking to get put out of his misery.
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Re: Anyone else feel dislike towards EoE nowadays?

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Postby TheCarkolum » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:48 am

Guy Nacks wrote:Shinji is not a coward...at least not moreso than the average 14-year-old would be in his situation


But that's what I'm saying. And yes, he is, for the most part of the time (or at least, half of the time if you want). And I said, "he overcomes some of his issues". And I'm not even saying that it's a bad thing, in the series is a good character (in the series). And I'm not even judging him as a person should be, only as a character. If you're going to quote, quote correctly.

Guy Nacks wrote:This is all to say the people who complain about Shinji's actions in the first half of EOE as being illogical or irrational aren't taking into account how much shit this kid has been put through for roughly the past half-year and has now been officially pushed into having a complete psychological meltdown. So, of course his actions aren't going to seem rational.


I am taking acount of it. And I'm judging him through his words in EoE. If he was mentally broken or completely irrational, he wouldn't be able to justify himself with Misato. He exposes clearly that he doesn't want to do a thing, because the only thing he does is killing people when he pilots the EVA. But, when Maya says Asuka is DEAD (FREAKING Asuka YOU KNOW, THE PERSON HE CLAIMS FOR HELP), he simply doesn't give a damn. But when he says the EVA-02 being eaten, he suddenly does?? That's a big inconsistency!! If you want to make the character totally mad, or sunk in depression, or totally irrational, do it. If you want to make the character with depression but still rational, do it. But the Shinji in EoE is neither, and that's my problem with him.

And besides, depression (I mean, depression at its purest, most destructive way ) doesn't make you irrational. It makes you DON'T CARE. If he were totally deppresive, I mean reeealy deppresive, he wouldn't claim for help. He wouldn't give a care any moment (and he does, when he sees the EVA-02). He wouldn't care about Asuka, or anyone. And that's not the case.

Guy Nacks wrote:But with that being said, he had no way of knowing what was going to happen to Asuka at that point. So I suppose the degree to which her death is his fault is ultimately up for the viewer to decide.


I've got a lot to say about that. If he wanted to, he clearly could have helped Asuka. Misato says: "You can choose between running away of get into the EVA." Even with the bakelite, he could get into the EVA. When he hears Asuka in danger, maybe he could try breaking the bakelite or something. You know, at least TRY. But to me, his decision of doing nothing (even when the poor girl is dead, no kidding) is merely a plot device so that Asuka can die and the EVA-01 can activate afterwards.
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Re: Anyone else feel dislike towards EoE nowadays?

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Postby silvermoonlight » Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:06 am

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:But that's what I'm saying. And yes, he is, for the most part of the time (or at least, half of the time if you want). And I said, "he overcomes some of his issues". And I'm not even saying that it's a bad thing, in the series is a good character (in the series). And I'm not even judging him as a person should be, only as a character. If you're going to quote, quote correctly.

I am taking acount of it. And I'm judging him through his words in EoE. If he was mentally broken or completely irrational, he wouldn't be able to justify himself with Misato. He exposes clearly that he doesn't want to do a thing, because the only thing he does is killing people when he pilots the EVA. But, when Maya says Asuka is DEAD (FREAKING Asuka YOU KNOW, THE PERSON HE CLAIMS FOR HELP), he simply doesn't give a damn. But when he says the EVA-02 being eaten, he suddenly does?? That's a big inconsistency!! If you want to make the character totally mad, or sunk in depression, or totally irrational, do it. If you want to make the character with depression but still rational, do it. But the Shinji in EoE is neither, and that's my problem with him..


I don't blame Shinji for his depression in the series and I understood it and emphasized with it and got that he was trying his hardest despite everything but I do find his behaviour really out of character in EOE and I agree he must have heard Asuka screaming as she was dying he could hear her sound feed in the bay yet he does nothing and yet he is so desperate for her to wake up in the hosbital bed crying out that he needs her and wants her back.

Its why I prefer the manga ending because he gives it his best shot yeah he still gets pulled in to human instrumentality but at least Asuka's still breathing though her units out of power and in EOE he could have still come to an injured Asuka aid after her eye was damaged all he had to cry was "Mother." and though the manga was done by Sadamoto it just surprises me that Anno never has him even try in EOE.

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Re: Anyone else feel dislike towards EoE nowadays?

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Postby Guy Nacks » Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:23 am

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:But, when Maya says Asuka is DEAD (FREAKING Asuka YOU KNOW, THE PERSON HE CLAIMS FOR HELP), he simply doesn't give a damn. But when he says the EVA-02 being eaten, he suddenly does?? That's a big inconsistency!!


I don't know what language you watch EOE in or what subs/dub you use, but the Maya never actually announces that Asuka is dead--she never uses any form of the word.

EngSub: "Shinji! Unit 02 is...Asuka is...Asuka!!"
EngDub: "Shinji! Unit 02 is...Asuka is...oh, God!"

So, Shinji is clueless until he actually sees the eviscerated form of Unit 02.

But with that being said, he had no way of knowing what was going to happen to Asuka at that point. So I suppose the degree to which her death is his fault is ultimately up for the viewer to decide.


You attributed the above quote to me in your post, but I never said this. CommanderFish did, so...

TheCarkolum wrote:If you're going to quote, quote correctly.



TheCarkolum wrote:If he wanted to, he clearly could have helped Asuka. Misato says: "You can choose between running away of get into the EVA." Even with the bakelite, he could get into the EVA. When he hears Asuka in danger, maybe he could try breaking the bakelite or something. You know, at least TRY.


How is he supposed to be effective here, though? How is he supposed to climb onto the unit and jettison the entry plug by himself while the entire thing is frozen in bakelite? He has no crew or technicians to help him because presumably they've all been killed/evacuated.
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Re: Anyone else feel dislike towards EoE nowadays?

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:27 am

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:How is he supposed to be effective here, though? How is he supposed to climb onto the unit and jettison the entry plug by himself while the entire thing is frozen in bakelite? He has no crew or technicians to help him because presumably they've all been killed/evacuated.

He's a shounen hero - of course he should be able to do all these things! His failure to live up to the viewers' expectations is what makes him a spineless wimp.

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Re: Anyone else feel dislike towards EoE nowadays?

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Postby Stillborn » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:17 pm

You shouldn't be sarcastic. It's true. :shrug:
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Re: Anyone else feel dislike towards EoE nowadays?

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Postby Joseki » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:18 pm

Every question that starts with "Anyone else feel..." can be answered with a "yes", we are 7 billions on this planet so you are never the only one to feel or experience something.

That said I'm not a great fan of EoE as a movie. It is a product with a strong artistic value and it is a great tool to understand in what state Anno was after Neon Genesis Evangelion being so personal, but as movie it's far from perfect.
There are some objective flaws like the pacing that commits suicide after the credits, some choices and scenes I personally didn't found necessary (the pyramid scene with that horrible grain filter) but the main reason why I'm not a fan of it is because of how I feel Anno treats the character: he purposefully crush all of them in such a way that feels almost unnecessary cruel for the plot, almost as if he wanted to harm himself while making the movie.
The payoff of all this feels to me emotionally underwhelming too, the beach scene has some great visuals but it falls flat compared to the end of episode 26.
I would still rate the movie highly if I had to objectively assign a score from 1 to 10 to it, but I don't like it much.



I liked how Anno pursued the "there is always hope" motif in Q much more than how he did it for EoE.
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Postby CommanderFish » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:03 pm

Stillborn wrote:You shouldn't be sarcastic. It's true. :shrug:

He strikes again! Never change, Stillborn.

Joseki wrote:There are some objective flaws like the pacing that commits suicide after the credits

I'm actually not sure what you mean here in regards to pacing. Mind elaborating a bit?

Joseki wrote:some choices and scenes I personally didn't found necessary (the pyramid scene with that horrible grain filter)

It really is different strokes. For me, that is one of the most powerful and significant scenes in the whole series.
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Postby Joseki » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:13 pm

View Original PostCommanderFish wrote:I'm actually not sure what you mean here in regards to pacing. Mind elaborating a bit?


I was just referring to the extremely long introspective sequences that made up pretty much all episode 26'. Episode 25' was more action based, SEELE attacks NERV, Asuka has a kick ass fight, Misato is risking everything to rescue Shinji, it flow fast, from the moment Shinji is impaled after the credits things don't happen anymore, everything is pure symbolism and introspection.
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Postby CommanderFish » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:27 pm

Joseki wrote:I was just referring to the extremely long introspective sequences that made up pretty much all episode 26'.

Ah, I see. That's the best part though! I mean, isn't EoTV really just one long introspective sequence? Or is more the contrast between action and introspection that's the problem?
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Postby Joseki » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:00 pm

View Original PostCommanderFish wrote:Ah, I see. That's the best part though! I mean, isn't EoTV really just one long introspective sequence? Or is more the contrast between action and introspection that's the problem?


I think it's mainly the switch from action to the credits and then introspections that slow down the movie a lot, basically to the point of a complete stop until the very end.
Episodes 25 and 26 are flawled too: they give closure to Shinji's arc but everything else is still up in the air or just showed in a frame with no real explaination (Misato dies off screen and they only show her body with some blood on the wall).
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Postby C.T.1290 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:06 pm

View Original PostJoseki wrote:the main reason why I'm not a fan of it is because of how I feel Anno treats the character: he purposefully crush all of them in such a way that feels almost unnecessary cruel for the plot,

But don't you think that Gendo had what's coming to him?
And maybe Asuka too?

I liked how Anno pursued the "there is always hope" motif in Q much more than how he did it for EoE.

I'm not sure if Q felt hopeful, but we'll see in the final film.
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Postby Joseki » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:30 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:But don't you think that Gendo had what's coming to him?
And maybe Asuka too?


Death is never a right punishment, no one has the right to chose if a human being should die, especially in the name of justice. I can concede that being eaten by Yui was fitting in a narrative but I didn't see it has some sort of karmatic payoff.
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Postby CommanderFish » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:55 pm

Joseki wrote:I think it's mainly the switch from action to the credits and then introspections that slow down the movie a lot, basically to the point of a complete stop until the very end.

Alright, I gotchu. I mean, to be honest, I have trouble seeing it from that perspective, but I do get how a shift in pacing like that could completely throw a viewer off if they're not expecting it.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:41 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:He could have gotten his ass in gear when the first alert sounded (you know, when they were shifting Asuka from her hospital bed to EVA-02), rather than waiting to suicide by JSSDF.

...and hide somewhere else inside the Eva. Remember, they weren't "gearing" up for battle, they were simply placed inside hiding units, most likely in two separate locations. It wasn't exactly ideal for the search/rescue operations that you seem to be suggesting.

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:06 pm

I always liked the original ending, but lately I've grown to appreciate it anymore. That said, I can really only say the same thing about EOE too. I don't really see a reason to compare them like they're separate endings, I see them as supplements to each other. Even if it could be argued that the original ending was positive and the EOE ending was negative (even though I personally believe is the same as the TV ending, only more bleak and realistic in its depiction of what's actually going on in reality--the TV ending was more like what was going on mentally/emotionally for Shinji by realizing things could be different and is what resulted in his rather triumphant choice to reject instrumentality and face reality even when it's completely shitty, even if his recovery wasn't in full or as miraculous as it seems in the TV ending), I still think up until the ending they're just different ways of expressing almost identical events. They both accomplish the same thing, which was to have a metaphysical discussion of sorts play out during the events of instrumentality wherein Shinji realizes certain truths about the nature of reality.

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:34 am

Yeah, I'm tiring of all the vagueness for the sake of vagueness.

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Postby Cybermat47 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:33 am

I absolutely despise EoE because of how much I love it.

It's the culmination of everything that was built up in NGE, which means that:

- Shinji attempts suicide.
- Shinji sexually assaults Asuka.
- Shinji attempts to kill Asuka.
- Shinji tells Rei to destroy the individuality of every living being.
- Rei gets robbed of any chance of a normal life.
- Misato again loses control and makes sexual overtures to Shinji.
- Misato bleeds to death.
- Asuka is horrifically mutilated and torn apart.
- Asuka takes all the rage and anger from her experiences, and her conflicting feelings about Shinji, and takes them out on him, vocally and physically.
- Gendo reveals that he was always distant out of fear of hurting Shinji.
- Ritsuko loses everything and dies.
- Fuyutsuki has an unrequited love for Yui.
- Hyuga has an unrequited love for Misato.
- Maya has an unrequited love for Ritsuko.
- Aoba is truly alone in the world.
- Yui spends eternity in complete loneliness.
- The JSSDF and Nerv butcher each other due to a lie.

Fuck, why does this movie have to be so good? I hate it!
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Re: Anyone else feel dislike towards EoE nowadays?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:21 pm

^ This guy. He gets it.

View Original PostChaddyManPrime wrote:Yeah, I'm tiring of all the vagueness for the sake of vagueness.

"Vagueness" is an awful weird thing to accuse a movie with explicitly clear dialogue, such as, "Humans are the 18th Angel," "Third Impact has begun," and "It would be better if everyone would just die."

I mean, I guess the "Dream Scene" could be considered a little "vague" in a non-vague sense (more of an abstract scene than it is a vague scene, really), but other than that, EoE is pretty straight forward. EoTV could be considered more vague than EoE, and EoTV features all of the Eva characters literally explaining exactly what's happening with Shinji through extensive dialogue, which isn't a particularly vague thing to do in a TV show...

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Postby Reichu » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:08 pm

- The dream scene is one example of EoE being intentionally obtuse and metaphysical. The sandbox sequence is another. The climactic voiceovers by Rei, Kaworu, and Rei are another.
- The depiction of Third Impact is an unapologetic many-layered clusterfuck. Spiritual and psychoanalytic imagery. Sci-fi gobbledygook. Character drama. So many knots to carefully untangle. So many ways for interpretation to go askew.

It's possible to cherry-pick things that are perfectly clear, but EoE is a flowing cinematic experience, not something to be perceived as a series of sound bytes or still images. "Vague" may not be the best term, but "straight-forward" is no more apt, especially when talking about the second half of the film.


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