Animals and vegetables in Instrumentality?

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Animals and vegetables in Instrumentality?

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:33 am

I searched around for an answer to this but strangely I couldn't find anything really conclusive. Which is weird, since I thought people would have thought of this years ago, but anyway:

Did animals and vegetables go into Instrumentality? We know the Black Moon/Lilith is responsible for generating humankind, but does that include all other life on Earth as well?

As we know, more than often we see humans referenced as Lilim (i.e. children of Lilith), especially by Kaworu in both the anime and the Rebuilds, as well as Bardiel'd Asuka. Likewise, the White Moon/Adam is the progenitor of the Angels, which are sometimes referenced in source material as "Angelic life". This would beg the question: to what point are the Moons capable of generating life?

Because the Angels themselves have such obvious differences in physical and intellectual abilities - consider Sachiel's rather animal-like intelligence versus Zeruel's more advanced tactical sense, Leliel/Armisael/Arael's ability to interact with humans and of course Tabris' sentience. So maybe we should consider them as different species, and not "brothers" of some sort?

In the same matter, that would make it possible for Lilith to have generated all other life on Earth as well, not just humans. Then again, the Lilith are supposed to be the 18th Angel. Unless non-Lilith-based life was already around when First Impact happened.

I once read a theory that Pen-Pen's appearance's in Pre-3I Instrumentality during the fight scene is proof that animals are indeed in Instrumentality, which would seem to further reinforce that fact. There's also a counter to that which presents that Pen-Pen is a projection of Shinji's subconscious. That's very problematic however because it also makes it possible for Asuka to be a projection - a particularly shipp-y theory which I've always disliked.
Maybe the the animals in question (which includes humans) would simply need to be sentient to be there (or at least have a soul, which might be the same thing as sentience, I suppose). And Pen-Pen is clearly intelligent, so maybe he's also sentient? Do dogs have AT Fields?

If that's not the case, then it also creates the problem of making survival in the post-Third Impact world much more difficult, because it would mean even bacteria and fungi have been turned into LCL, which would effectively render the Earth sterile. While it would still be theoretically possible for Asuka and Shinji and any other possible returnees to find seeds and plant them to create crops that should still be able to grow out of the inorganic components that should still be around. Or maybe just eat canned food.

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Re: Animals and vegetables in Instrumentality?

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Postby AuraTwilight » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:22 am

LCL is the primordial soup that all familiar Earth life evolved out of, so even though only homo sapiens are "angels", all life is Lilith's doing (excepting Adam's children).

All souls of all lifeforms were collected into Instrumentality, including plants and the like, though for the most part they weren't active participants. Animals just aren't that psychologically deep or emotionally troubled, let alone plants. Because of this though, as soon as Instrumentality was stopped, all the non-human life seems to have instantly reformed itself, having no self-image and self-conception problems humans are prone to. As we see Giant Naked Rei's head falling off her body, we see an ocean of trees carpeting a mountainside.
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Re: Animals and vegetables in Instrumentality?

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Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:38 am

It's called the Human Instrumentality Project, so logically only humans (Lilin, Angels, and so forth) would be involved. The only thing I can think of that goes against this is the one Seele guy mentioning, "uniting humans, gods, and all other life in Death"... though it's not clear to me that this is a reference to Instrumentality per se, or instead to the death that must happen (systematic slaughter of the Angels, followed by biosphere meltdown) before HIP can.

Pen-Pen's appearance during so-called "Pre-3I Instrumentality" (a misnomer, as Third Impact had already started by then!; fortunately, it's a fan-created term so we don't have to use it) doesn't prove anything about the presence or lack thereof of non-human souls. Pen Pen himself could not have actually been present, unless he, like Misato and Ritsuko (and Asuka, we must assume), had recently dropped dead while being watched by a Rei spiritual medium. Much of what happens during that sequence are "replays" of the participants' memories, so presumably Pen Pen was just part of the "original scene", the one briefly glimpsed toward the beginning of episode 24 where the coffee was spilled.

Souls and A.T. Fields are present in all organisms. This is established in both episodes 21' and 26'. In the former, Fuyutsuki comments on how all life down to microbes were eradicated in the vicinity of Second Impact. In the latter, we're told that the Anti A.T. Field that's spread will destroy the ability of lifeforms to maintain their shapes. Adam had spread an AATF at Second Impact.

Even though everything was turned to LCL, remember the dialogue toward the end of the film where we're told that all life has the ability to return to its original form.

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Re: Animals and vegetables in Instrumentality?

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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:09 am

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:LCL is the primordial soup that all familiar Earth life evolved out of, so even though only homo sapiens are "angels", all life is Lilith's doing (excepting Adam's children).


Further evidence: The Giant Impact Hypothesis that Shinseiki grafts onto its own version of the alien astronauts myth happens over 4 billion years ago. This is much earlier than almost theories of the origin of life on earth.


View Original PostReichu wrote:It's called the Human Instrumentality Project, so logically only humans (Lilin, Angels, and so forth) would be involved.


There's also the argument that HIP is a code name they use to defraud the UN and is named after a wildly different Cordwainer Smith novel. There it means 'one world government' which is how I'd sell a secret conspiracy to the UN, bow howdy.
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Re: Animals and vegetables in Instrumentality?

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Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:20 pm

Another argument perhaps in favor of all life being involved is Rei telling Shinji, in the Sea of LCL, that everything has become one. On the other hand, when we're inside the Chamber of Guf, no allusion to other organisms is made: all we see is a collection of human souls, represented as naked, drowned corpses. Shinji's "wall of noise" psychic impression of being immersed in HIP is also humans-only. Cross-referencing with EoTV, Pen Pen (who seems to be at least as intelligent as a grade schooler) isn't present at all until the "bubble bursts". Perhaps this was simply to avoid the narm of being able to hear Pen Pen's thoughts, I dunno. Complicating matters there is that we don't hear from the Angels either, not even Kaworu (whose humanity is established at the beginning of episode 25!), so... *shrug*

View Original PostSoryuUberAlles wrote:There's also the argument that HIP is a code name they use to defraud the UN and is named after a wildly different Cordwainer Smith novel. There it means 'one world government' which is how I'd sell a secret conspiracy to the UN, bow howdy.

I'm not sure how this really makes any sense in-context. It's not as if the UN is full of classic sci-fi nerds (is it?) who are going to understand the reference being made. At face value, the project's international name would be so vague you couldn't tell what was being "sold" without looking at the actual proposal. Now, the Japanese name, Jinrui Hokan Keikaku, uses "complementation" in place of "instrumentality", referring to the whole notion of human souls complementing each other to compensate away all flaws -- Seele's motives hiding in plain sight.

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Re: Animals and vegetables in Instrumentality?

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Postby AuraTwilight » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:29 am

Look, Reichu, we get it. Pen Pen is an omnipresent deity who observes humans in instrumentality even while alive. We know that already. :P
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Re: Animals and vegetables in Instrumentality?

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:27 pm

As Lilith's head comes crashing down into the ocean, you can see trees and plants on the mountainsides in the background. Either they weren't taken, came back immediately...oooor it was just an oversight by the animation team. :lol:
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Re: Animals and vegetables in Instrumentality?

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Postby Reichu » Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:23 pm

Could be an oversight, but, then, what WOULD be stopping less spiritually convoluted life from just immediately going back to that whole "living" business? Not like they're going to be tortured by thoughts about "who am I, really?" and whether the Abyss is the better place to be...

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Postby Snow » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:16 pm

I agree with Reichu's point that Instrumentality seems to be specific only to Humans, not other creatures. It also gives me the question of how animals and especially plants could be included in instrumentality and be aware of it. I do not believe a cherry tree has a great ambition to be united with all the other cherry trees in a collective existence.
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Re: Animals and vegetables in Instrumentality?

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Postby RadicalRandy » Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:19 am

I don't know about you all, but I wouldn't mind if Pen Pen was caught up in Instrumentality so that he wouldn't be so lonely in a broken world.
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Re: Animals and vegetables in Instrumentality?

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Postby DiracSea902 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:58 pm

A question on the nature of LCL and agriculture post 3I. What would the effects of LCL being drawn up into the atmosphere and raining down onto farmlands be on crops? Considering that in the Rebuilds the Red Sea has had toxic effects on marine life, would it have the same detrimental effects on croplands, poisoning the ground and rendering it barren?

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Re: Animals and vegetables in Instrumentality?

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Postby Reichu » Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:41 pm

I don't think LCL would evaporate in its entirety. The watery component would, but the rest would be left behind. You can see dried out LCL in one of the earlier episodes, jiggling around inside Eva-00's entry plug, like a sort of gel.

In the new films, bodies of water that aren't connected to the ocean are still blue, letting you know that as a pollutant LCL is "meteorologically inert".

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Re: Animals and vegetables in Instrumentality?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:41 pm

The nearest I've found to a "trees In instrumentality" thread -- post/181212/LCL-and-instrumentality-a-humans-only-club/#181212 -- though I was sure we had discussions on that exact topic before now.
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Re: Animals and vegetables in Instrumentality?

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Postby Lyrical » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:27 pm

What I wonder is, up to now the general consensus seems to be that anyone emerging from the LCL Sea would have to literally reform inside the ocean and drag themselves out. Yet, all the trees just magically reappeared on the mountains where they were before, obviously without swimming back to land. Wouldn't that make it totally possible that any other returners could just manifest wherever? (Although, I guess it could be that the AATF broke down all AT Fields, but GNR only cared about drawing the human souls back to Guf - i.e. any non-human souls would have been left in their original positions and been free to reform on land as soon as the AATF dropped, rather than getting thrown into the sea when the Moon broke open. But, assuming that not all souls were harvested seems to fly in the face of the idea that keeps getting touted that all souls are the same.)

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Re: Animals and vegetables in Instrumentality?

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Postby Sachi » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:53 pm

Not all souls are the same. The Chamber of Guf was utilized by the FAR to carry their souls to new worlds, so that they may be reborn from the Seeds. We know from the show that there's a limited amount of souls within Guf, and that it eventually becomes empty. It would be a tremendous and rapid strain on the population of souls if every single organism obtained a soul from Guf. Lilin are the true receivers of the Fruit of Knowledge, therefore it's reasonable to assume only Lilin contain the souls from Guf. The series is rather anthrocentric as it is, presenting humans as the peak of evolution and drawing direct parallels between them and their Angel counterparts. Plant and animal life is simply a necessary part of the ecosystem required to support Lilin life.
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Re: Animals and vegetables in Instrumentality?

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Postby Chuckman » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:30 pm

Trees have souls.

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Re: Animals and vegetables in Instrumentality?

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:25 pm

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:LCL is the primordial soup that all familiar Earth life evolved out of, so even though only homo sapiens are "angels", all life is Lilith's doing (excepting Adam's children).

All souls of all lifeforms were collected into Instrumentality, including plants and the like, though for the most part they weren't active participants. Animals just aren't that psychologically deep or emotionally troubled, let alone plants. Because of this though, as soon as Instrumentality was stopped, all the non-human life seems to have instantly reformed itself, having no self-image and self-conception problems humans are prone to. As we see Giant Naked Rei's head falling off her body, we see an ocean of trees carpeting a mountainside.

:thumbsup:

Reichu wrote:It's called the Human Instrumentality Project

Semantics.
Trees have souls.

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Re: Animals and vegetables in Instrumentality?

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Postby anonymaus » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:20 am

We call it 'human instrumentality' because there's no other name for it, but that was simply the name for what SEELE wanted to bring about.
It isn't actually what happened. 'Human instrumentality' stopped being the gameplan as soon as Rei took Lilith's body and gained control over the proceedings. It became the 'Rei/Shinji do what they feel like' project at that point. Lilith loves all her creations just the same I imagine, so I'm sure all life was taken into the soul gestalt.

You don't see any plants in the final scene, you know.

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Re: Animals and vegetables in Instrumentality?

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Postby RamielBestGirl » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:55 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:It's called the Human Instrumentality Project, so logically only humans (Lilin, Angels, and so forth) would be involved.

Or they just named it that because they only cared about the involvement of humans. It's entirely plausible that microbes and vegetables and whatnot were also a part of the process but that because they were irrelevant to the actual aims of that project, whoever named it that just didn't bother calling it the "Organic Life Instrumentality Project" or something.

Seems clear to me that because all life evolved out of LCL and all living things have A.T. Fields, all living things were tanged and absorbed into the Black Moon during Instrumentality and they were all a part of it, but they just didn't have any complex thoughts or revelations or introspection during it.


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