Who is the EVA character you feel most sorry for?

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Re: Who is the EVA character you feel most sorry for?

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Postby RadicalRandy » Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:55 am

View Original PostSnow wrote:I'm not really sure about her innocence, as with any other character. She does after all, have some quite negative personality traits to make life more difficult not only for others, but most importantly, for herself. Deep down we get to see what she is though, but that doesn't exactly justify her means. What comes to being a victim, she is a victim of fate, like everyone else.


Oh come now, her negative personality traits are directly molded off of her life experiences, and she definitely doesn't want life to be more difficult (nobody really does). If anything, when we get to see what she is, it only makes her life sadder. Sure, she has a lot of issues (as does everyone) but she can't help it. The fact that she had one of the most traumatic experiences of both rejection of her insane mother as well as being the first to see her lifeless body dangling from the ceiling really is something I feel sorry for. I can't imagine walking in on that.
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Re: Who is the EVA character you feel most sorry for?

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Postby Snow » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:37 am

Well, you could argue that she had the toughest past of the pilots, but Shinji comes very close. I know very little on Suzuhara, and Rei has no past at all. But her attitude on the field makes her seem much more stable, although we know this is probably false. I feel that a lot of people warmed up more towards her when she got disabled near the end of the show. But you still see the difference between Shinji and Asuka. Shinji doesn't really fight the reality, while Asuka does everything in her ability to hide and get rid of her past, although she can't.
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Re: Who is the EVA character you feel most sorry for?

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Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:31 am

View Original PostRadicalRandy wrote:Oh come now, her negative personality traits are directly molded off of her life experiences

Well, if you subscribe to pure determinism, then none of us are responsible for how we behave at all and we're all puppets on the strings of boundless, unchangeable spacetime. If you don't believe that, then you can look around and see that different people handle trauma differently. Some, like Asuka, "handle" it by being insufferable and mostly making things worse. Just because you know why someone is insufferable, it doesn't put them in the clear. The only way Asuka herself could ever get better is if she acknowledges her flaws and how badly she mishandles things, and moves past them. In other words, takes responsibility for whatever IS actually within her power to change.

Would Asuka actually appreciate all the white knight apologetics she gets? I really doubt it...
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Re: Who is the EVA character you feel most sorry for?

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Postby Bagheera » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:05 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Would Asuka actually appreciate all the white knight apologetics she gets? I really doubt it...


Asuka's 13. You're picking on a kid.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
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Re: Who is the EVA character you feel most sorry for?

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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:22 am

Not everyone is as mean as Asuka. Not everyone in Erin Brokovich got cancer from the water either. And honestly, how mean is she really? You only have to compare her to Shikinami who's worse. She decks Shinji on sight, plays videogames all the time (a sign of mental instability in Soryu) and doesn't even make nice with the class rep.

I've always cogitated on a reverse-protag fanfic where Asuka and Shinji swap personalities/roles. To begin with, I base this on the observation of Sado's that the show was just another Gunbuster until the they genderswapped the MC and whoops there goes Asuka. She really is just Shinji in a different condition. But then, aren't we all? So basically, Shinji is the spoiled insider princeling raised by the wolf ikari to be a cold and loyal piloting machine. He has the superior Yui-Gendo eugenic DNA. Asuka is the perfect viewpoint character - a compeltely guileless moeblob and an American too, so everyone has to explain literally every element of the plot to her (how convenient for the viewer!).

If Asuka's arrogance comes from anything its the fact the she was given the personal chance to resolve her trauma through becoming an object of other's praise. Shinji has always had this issue: "because I pilot the Eva others praise me" / "they don't need me so they can all just die". Indeed in episode 16 we see how cocky he gets just he's had a good week or something.
“Mom! Mom! I've been chosen!
I'm an elite pilot, chosen to protect all of mankind! I'm the best in the world!”
“It's supposed to be a secret! But I'll tell you anyway! Just for you!”
“Everyone will be nice to us from now on!
So, we won't be lonely anymore!”
“So, we'll be fine, even without Dad around!
We won't be lonely anymore!”
“Come on, Mom!”

Shinji and Asuka have both fallen down the well of loneliness. Asuka just climbed back out.
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Re: Who is the EVA character you feel most sorry for?

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Postby Gus Hanson » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:53 am

Ritsuko for me, most definitely. The scene of her breaking down in tears begging for Misato to end her misery after causing the death of the Rei series due to her pure hatred of Rei in particular for being preferred over her in Gendo's eyes just like her mother always makes me feel pity for her. :sniffle:
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Re: Who is the EVA character you feel most sorry for?

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Postby xanderkh » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:19 am

To me personally, it's a tie between Asuka and Shinji, as they are two opposites of the same coin, they just when in different directions for relatively the same issues. Shinji is introverted, and Asuka is extroverted, both stemming from huge abandonment issues from people who've screwed them over big time. And while both Shinji and Asuka made some huge mistakes, which I won't condone or forgive, I can't really fault, blame, or hate them for that. They're still just two teens who were caught up in a situation beyond their control, and simply told to deal with it. It's no wonder that when push came to shove, they both cracked. :(

View Original PostSoryuUberAlles wrote:Shinji and Asuka have both fallen down the well of loneliness. Asuka just climbed back out.


It may seem like that, but actually was the opposite. Her confidence and arrogance may make her look independent, but all she's doing is pushing people away who try to get close to her, like Shinji tried to do, and instead making herself more lonely then she wants to acknowledge. She doesn't want to be lonely, but she's not willing to let people in because she's afraid of getting hurt again. Shinji's the exact opposite, who's also afraid of getting hurt, but struggles to even make the first move.

Until Instrumentality, neither of them climbed out of the well. Shinji was still struggling to even get out, while Asuka was simply digging herself deeper in the bottom, trying to find another way out. :P
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Re: Who is the EVA character you feel most sorry for?

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Postby silvermoonlight » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:26 am

View Original PostSoryuUberAlles wrote:Not everyone is as mean as Asuka. Not everyone in Erin Brokovich got cancer from the water either. And honestly, how mean is she really? You only have to compare her to Shikinami who's worse. She decks Shinji on sight, plays videogames all the time (a sign of mental instability in Soryu) and doesn't even make nice with the class rep.


This statement perfectly nails why I prefer Soryu over Shikinami because though I don't condone her actions or any of her bullying I get why she is acting an behaving that way and how bad she feels in side, hence why she's lashing out at people and has a desperate desire for attention even if its negative. Shikinami we know so little about her and she comes off as real mean from the get go and is really antisocial yet we have no idea what the triggers are that cause her to act out the way she does, all I can say is thank you to fan fiction writers for filling in those gaps.
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Re: Who is the EVA character you feel most sorry for?

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Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:49 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Asuka's 13. You're picking on a kid.

You're going to complain about that post? Who's "picking on" whom here? :p
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Re: Who is the EVA character you feel most sorry for?

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Postby Bagheera » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:01 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:You're going to complain about that post?


"White knight apologetics", so yeah.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Who is the EVA character you feel most sorry for?

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Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:16 pm

If that's the part you're complaining about, your response is a rather odd one -- basically a non sequitur. Not to mention it ignores that the character, as said 13-year-old self, would absolutely detest the very thing I mention -- a rather intriguing bit of irony IMHO. Be honest with yourself: would she argue with my particular word choice? If anything, her own version would aim below the belt far more...

I find it interesting that the character is treated as "real" enough to be worthy of defense (she doesn't need one; she doesn't exist!), but not real enough that her own invariable feelings about being treated like a weakling in need of a defense by a bunch of strangers doesn't come into play anywhere.
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Re: Who is the EVA character you feel most sorry for?

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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:11 pm

View Original PostGus Hanson wrote:Ritsuko for me, most definitely.


Yeah. It's why 'Thanatos' is my favourite piece of the in-show soundtrack. There's also the idea that she completely knew what happened to her mother, tried to shut down as a person and turn into a cold calculating professional and then watched herself fall for the same old tricks.

View Original PostReichu wrote: I find it interesting that the character is treated as "real" enough to be worthy of defense (she doesn't need one; she doesn't exist!), but not real enough that her own invariable feelings about being treated like a weakling in need of a defense by a bunch of strangers doesn't come into play anywhere.


Hear grief is well drawn and resonates with the real feelings of Asukafellows. A lot her meanness is slapstick and silly is just meant for comedic effect, isn't it?
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Postby xanderkh » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:39 pm

View Original PostSoryuUberAlles wrote:Hear grief is well drawn and resonates with the real feelings of Asukafellows. A lot her meanness is slapstick and silly is just meant for comedic effect, isn't it?


Shinji didn't seem to think so in the end. Then again, it's pretty much established that he's the kind of person that takes any offense against him as a personal rejection instead of just "playing", since no one bothered to tell him otherwise when he was growing up.

The same is with Asuka, in that she can't read people or bother to read people in that they're more then they are behind first impressions and one-dimension, such as how she just regarded Rei as a "doll" without seeing the tragedy behind her character.

Put all these damaged people in a room together, and look at the results. :P
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Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

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Re: Who is the EVA character you feel most sorry for?

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Postby pwhodges » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:46 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:I find it interesting that the character is treated as "real" enough to be worthy of defense (she doesn't need one; she doesn't exist!),

It's that reality that allows viewers to see the show as a mirror in which one or another character is an avatar of themselves and their problems.
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Postby Snow » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:50 pm

One could feel sorry for Fuyutsuki, surrounded by lunatics and problem-children. I'd go insane in a few weeks in his position.

But for me, it is either a tie between Ikari and Soryu, or the late Rei II. The reason for this goes that while the competing duo are in their state for most of the series, Rei II really realises her own misery very near her end. I do not honestly know if to feel sorry for her demise or see her sacrifice as an act of rationality. After all, who would want to live as a purpose-created, mass produced doll....
Fuyutsuki did nothing wrong.

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Postby Bagheera » Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:46 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:It's that reality that allows viewers to see the show as a mirror in which one or another character is an avatar of themselves and their problems.


True. Also, the OP asks which character we feel most sorry for, so it seems reasonable to give explanations for our choices. I think it's a bit of a leap to read those as defense of the characters in question.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Who is the EVA character you feel most sorry for?

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Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:53 pm

View Original PostSoryuUberAlles wrote:Hear [sic] grief is well drawn and resonates with the real feelings of Asukafellows. A lot her meanness is slapstick and silly is just meant for comedic effect, isn't it?

That might have been the intent at first, but when you have episode 22' showing the hidden dark side of two silly Asuka moments ("Wall of Jericho" and "kissing to kill time"), it doesn't seem without question that the rest of the slapstick should also be viewed through a more cynical lens after the fact. This puts Shinji's (symbolically) physical assault in episode 26' in a context that would be otherwise missing: Asuka has physically attacked him on more than one occasion, and back then Shinji of course just took it like a good "housebroken male". This falls in line with some of NGE's other early silliness, like Misato's off-color joke about putting the moves on Shinji -- you laugh the first time, but eventually...

View Original PostBagheera wrote:(...)the OP asks which character we feel most sorry for, so it seems reasonable to give explanations for our choices. I think it's a bit of a leap to read those as defense of the characters in question.

If you look, I was responding to Radical Randy's defensive reaction to Snow, not merely to someone explaining why they feel sorry for Asuka... Context matters!
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Re: Who is the EVA character you feel most sorry for?

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Postby zlink64 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:41 pm

Probably Gendo. Not that I don't think he got his just deserts.I do and he deserved it all but it's just really tragic when you consider how messed up he is. I dunno, just feel like he is just a really messed up person and it's unfortunate.

And Rei. I feel like she never had a chance. Not having a chance sucks. Overall this is a hard question. I've never really played favorites with this show.
Last edited by zlink64 on Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
hmmm

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Postby Bagheera » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:00 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:If you look, I was responding to Radical Randy's defensive reaction to Snow, not merely to someone explaining why they feel sorry for Asuka... Context matters!


That just makes your response more confusing, as he wasn't really defending her there. It's also a little weird to claim she needs to "acknowledge her flaws" and "take responsibility" (things she cannot do since, as you note, she is a fictional character in a story that's been told for twenty plus years), and then, later, act puzzled by people who treat the character as though she were a real person (and then go on to claim they should take her hypothetical feelings into account when speaking of her, which is absolutely bizarre). You set the stage there, so isn't it a little disingenuous to cry foul when people respond in kind?

I really don't know what you're going on about here.
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The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Snow » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:03 pm

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:Probably Gendo. Not that I don't think he got his just deserts.I do and he deserved it all but it's just really tragic when you consider how messed up he is. I dunno just feel like he is just really messed up person and it's unfortunate.

And Rei. I feel like she never had a chance. Not having a chance sucks. Overall this is a hard question. I've never really played favorites with this show.


Commander Ikari is for me a hard person to have an exact opinion on, since we know very little about his backstory and by what turn of events he was molded into his final form. I honestly have to feel some sympathy towards him for quite literally being ready to obliterate anything out of his way to see Yui, but i'm sure most of people will disagree with his ''the end justifies the means''-philosophy.

And what comes to favourites, this isn't exactly picking your favourite character. Your personal favourite could easily be Fuyutsuki, although you do not feel particularly sorry for him.
Fuyutsuki did nothing wrong.


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