Impact trigger discrepancy

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

Moderators: New Moderators, Board Staff

Geometer
Adam
User avatar
Posts: 59
Joined: Dec 22, 2016

Re: Impact trigger disrepancy

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Geometer » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:22 pm

View Original Postjcmoorehead wrote:He doesn't necessarily have to become passive again because of it it depends on how WILLE handle things. He can be punished for his actions, I don't know how they would punish him really, put him in a cell for a week perhaps? Yell at him? I think if anything Shinji can be punished but also be given the opportunity to make amends for his actions too.

Have people speak to him, I can see Sakura/Mari doing that if no one else. Have him apologize for what he has done and also express a desire to make amends for it. Have him maybe contribute in small ways to make himself useful, have him slowly regain trust and regularly communicate with him. He might regress for a time and become passive but if they give him the chance to grow and talk to him then he can rise out of that again and learn to love himself.


It's hard for me to see a believable case where Shinji starts to trust himself anytime soon. Realistically he is going to be simply dazed for awhile. Once he comes to his senses he probably will be too afraid to do anything for a while. He'd probably slowly start to open up and interacting with others before trying to gain what trust he can get. He would probably want to genuinely fix his mistakes at some point but he still would not trust himself at all and only listen to others. Its hard to see what can change Shinji's mind in this case when everything he's done so far been disastrous. It would take months for Shinji to get back to the his normal state which I think we all can agree is not where he needs to be by the end. So then the movie has to concluded his arc, all at the same time finishing the plot, developing the rest of the cast, and giving us some basic world building and lore so we get some grounding to whats going on. I just skeptical that all this can be done,


View Original PostReichu wrote:We agree that Shinji needs to grow up a bit, yes? Shutting his stupid kid mouth and listening to the grown-ups (who aren't his dad, because fuck that guy) would not be the road to "regression". It's what he needs to do if he's going to actually learn anything. That's how life works. You act like a dumb kid and ignore what more experienced people tell you, then once circumstances bites you in the ass hard enough you're forced to stop, listen, and reflect.

Well, I think your right, Shinji does need to shut and listen, its just that because of the extreme circumstances, and Shinji's personality doing so will totally shatter any sense of self confidence he has. He will just become more dependent on others, and not wanting to make his own choices which he will have to do sooner or later.
Last edited by Geometer on Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Bagheera
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 18626
Joined: Oct 15, 2010

Re: Impact trigger disrepancy

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bagheera » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:24 pm

Worth remembering that Shinji is still 14. He's still a kid, and he still needs guidance. That's how growing up works. The fact that Shinji fucked up more than most doesn't change that.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

Stillborn
Donor
Donor
User avatar
Posts: 2384
Joined: Apr 28, 2013
Location: Huge wastebin
Gender: Male

Re: Impact trigger disrepancy

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Stillborn » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:30 pm

But he was guided from beginning by different figures. So that guidance was flawed but somehow it's only his fault?
Another jaded man.
Wciąż stoję nieruchomo, w nieżywym już szeregu. Umieram na stojąco, niech inni giną w biegu.

Bagheera
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 18626
Joined: Oct 15, 2010

Re: Impact trigger disrepancy

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bagheera » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:34 pm

You are really stuck on blame here.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

jcmoorehead
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 613
Joined: Dec 30, 2005
Location: Edinburgh
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Impact trigger disrepancy

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby jcmoorehead » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:35 pm

View Original PostGeometer wrote:It's hard for me to see a believable case where Shinji starts to trust himself anytime soon. Realistically he is going to be simply dazed for awhile. Once he comes to his senses he probably will be too afraid to do anything for a while. He'd probably slowly start to open up and interacting with others before trying to gain what trust he. He would probably want to genuinely fix his mistakes at some point but he still would not trust himself at all and only listen to others. Its hard to see what can change Shinji's mind in this case when everything he's done so far been disastrous. It would take months for Shinji to get back to the his normal state which still isn't what anyone wants him to be.


Well that's the thing, it will take time and as you say it could take a lot of time for Shinji to get back to how he normally used to be. I'd say that people will want him to be back to how he used to be Pre-Bardiel at the very least because it was then that he was making friends and starting to see that he wasn't worthless/useless.

The thing is though that it isn't and I'm under no illusion that'll him learning to trust/love himself is going to be an instant process but it is possible for him to do so. He needs to sit down and listen to the others, they will need to listen to him and both sides will need to communicate. Shinji will need to understand what he did wrong and have time and space to get over that. That is something NGE taught us in EoE though, that people can learn to love themselves adn find hope but the road can be long and hard.

Not all of that might happen in the next film but I do think the Shinji we see at the end of the film will be in a much better place than the one at the start. He will have some hope to hold onto and something to look towards.

pwhodges
A Lilin in Wonderland
A Lilin in Wonderland
User avatar
Age: 71
Posts: 9230
Joined: Nov 18, 2012
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: Impact trigger disrepancy

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby pwhodges » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:43 pm

View Original PostGeometer wrote:Realistically he is going to be simply dazed for awhile
he still would not trust himself at all

These are both key aspects of my fic (see sig) which addresses Shinji's recovery (on trust, see the start of Ch 16)
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: "Don't take Rei!" (details); Past avatars.
Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

pwhodges
A Lilin in Wonderland
A Lilin in Wonderland
User avatar
Age: 71
Posts: 9230
Joined: Nov 18, 2012
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: Impact trigger disrepancy

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby pwhodges » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:46 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:But he was guided from beginning by different figures. So that guidance was flawed but somehow it's only his fault?

If one day you become a parent, I expect the experience will improve your understanding of growing up and the relationships between children and their guardians.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: "Don't take Rei!" (details); Past avatars.
Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

Stillborn
Donor
Donor
User avatar
Posts: 2384
Joined: Apr 28, 2013
Location: Huge wastebin
Gender: Male

Re: Impact trigger disrepancy

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Stillborn » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:01 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:If one day you become a parent, I expect the experience will improve your understanding of growing up and the relationships between children and their guardians.


I'm rising my younger brother since he was a baby. I have perspective and understanding.
Another jaded man.
Wciąż stoję nieruchomo, w nieżywym już szeregu. Umieram na stojąco, niech inni giną w biegu.

BlueBasilisk
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 1147
Joined: Nov 14, 2010
Gender: Male

Re: Impact trigger disrepancy

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BlueBasilisk » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:10 pm

View Original Postjcmoorehead wrote:Have people speak to him, I can see Sakura/Mari doing that if no one else. Have him apologize for what he has done and also express a desire to make amends for it. Have him maybe contribute in small ways to make himself useful, have him slowly regain trust and regularly communicate with him. He might regress for a time and become passive but if they give him the chance to grow and talk to him then he can rise out of that again and learn to love himself.


If they do feel punishment is necessary, community service of some kind would be really good for Shinji. Get him away from Evas and give him something positive to focus on. Learning to appreciate life and the world can only work to his benefit when he inevitably boards Unit 01 again.
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!

jcmoorehead
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 613
Joined: Dec 30, 2005
Location: Edinburgh
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Impact trigger disrepancy

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby jcmoorehead » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:16 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:If they do feel punishment is necessary, community service of some kind would be really good for Shinji. Get him away from Evas and give him something positive to focus on. Learning to appreciate life and the world can only work to his benefit when he inevitably boards Unit 01 again.


I kinda did something like that in my fic. I had him work in the canteen for a time on the Wunder. Didn't go quite as in depth as I'd have liked to put it gave him an it of focus away from thinking about the Eva's and what had happened.

pwhodges
A Lilin in Wonderland
A Lilin in Wonderland
User avatar
Age: 71
Posts: 9230
Joined: Nov 18, 2012
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: Impact trigger disrepancy

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby pwhodges » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:17 pm

View Original Postjcmoorehead wrote:I had him work in the canteen for a time on the Wunder.

I also had him working in a kitchen - but not on the Wunder 'cos they were keeping impact-kun as far away from Eva-01 as possible!
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: "Don't take Rei!" (details); Past avatars.
Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

jcmoorehead
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 613
Joined: Dec 30, 2005
Location: Edinburgh
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Impact trigger disrepancy

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby jcmoorehead » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:19 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:I also had him working in a kitchen - but not on the Wunder 'cos they were keeping impact-kun as far away from Eva-01 as possible!


That's understandable. I actually need to sit down and read yours properly sometime. It's been on my to read list for quite some time.

Signer
Adam
User avatar
Age: 26
Posts: 61
Joined: May 14, 2013
Gender: Male

Re: Impact trigger disrepancy

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Signer » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:54 am

I still don't agree with "Shinji should shut up and listen" idea - knowing what he knew, he didn't have any reason not to come with Rei Q, and even the end result was what, couple of hundreds people died, who would probably die in a fight anyway? Comparing to a chance to save planet, it is not obviously a bad deal. So "you should always know every bit of classified information" is not wrong, but not exactly helpful as advice.
On topic, EVA-01's connection to L-barrier suggests that even if Shinji's involvement in Third Impact was not direct, it was more than just opening a hole in geofront - awakening happened because of Shinji's wish. Yes, he probably didn't know, but considering that Kaworu said exactly that - people still blame/fear him - I don't think Kaworu was trying to hide the truth. Also, I would prefer Shinji to deal with the live of being hated without a chance to redeem his sins or restore any old relationships, to "if you think you killed billions, it is probably just thousands"-kind of revelation. Because if we already know the answer, why would we need Anno to say it?
Where is the center of the multiverse?
I'm the center of the multiverse.

Sachi
Oh Daddy!
Oh Daddy!
User avatar
Age: 24
Posts: 9654
Joined: Aug 29, 2006
Location: Hollywoo
Gender: Male

Re: Impact trigger discrepancy

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sachi » Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:03 pm

I think it's less that Shinji should "shut up and listen" and more that Shinji (and others too, of course) should perhaps value the perspective of their peers more, and realize when they might have a point regarding the situation. Remember that Shinji was ignorant of literally almost ALL the events of the previous fourteen years, whereas Wille et al, LIVED through it; and Shinji still chose to ignore them in favor of his own narrow-minded goals. Also remember that Shinji's narrow-minded goals were spoonfed to him by Kaworu, an agent of Seele, whom actively seeks to fulfill the Human Instrumentality Project on their behalf.

Meanwhile, like you said, Wille was practically all about the "shut up and listen" mentality. They should have given Shinji more of a voice. Even if they kept him in that cell, he would have stayed somewhat complacent if they would have at least explained the situation and let him vent about it. Instead they told him to "shut up and listen", and as a result pushed him right into Gendo's hands. They failed at making a few simple points clear; Gendo and the people he works for are the enemy; Wille has defected from Nerv, and is now in rebellion against Nerv's goals, for reasons, A, B, C; and lastly, the Rei you knew is dead, and has been replaced by a series of clones. If they would have explained that he would have stayed, and then they would later be able to explain Third Impact and his involvement in it.

Eva Q is all about miscommunication, as is the rest of the Evangelion franchise at large. Even Kaworu's failure comes from a miscommunication; in reality Kaworu is trying to promote Seele and the Human Instrumentality Project, but Shinji takes it the complete wrong way and basically thinks he can reset everything he's done wrong and lead things back to normal. Even Gendo's victory over Seele results from feeding them not necessarily "false information", but for indeed leading them astray, which is a form of miscommunication.
"Chaos is merely a human construct. The world only knows its own natural law of harmony and order."
"So you are saying it's the human heart that throws the world into confusion."

ElMariachi
Le Posteur Verbeux
Le Posteur Verbeux
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 6837
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
Location: France
Gender: Male

Re: Impact trigger discrepancy

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ElMariachi » Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:25 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:Meanwhile, like you said, Wille was practically all about the "shut up and listen" mentality. They should have given Shinji more of a voice. Even if they kept him in that cell, he would have stayed somewhat complacent if they would have at least explained the situation and let him vent about it. Instead they told him to "shut up and listen", and as a result pushed him right into Gendo's hands. They failed at making a few simple points clear; Gendo and the people he works for are the enemy; Wille has defected from Nerv, and is now in rebellion against Nerv's goals, for reasons, A, B, C; and lastly, the Rei you knew is dead, and has been replaced by a series of clones. If they would have explained that he would have stayed, and then they would later be able to explain Third Impact and his involvement in it.

Although for WILLE to take that precise course of explanation they would first had to know that Gendo would attack the fleet targeting Shinji (and not EVA-01 as it would be logical) and interrupting their explanation right in the precise moment that would make him question WILLE's story (aka right after Ritsuko told Shinji that Rei is dead), which of course they didn't had any way to know.
Which is why I believe that Gendo and/or SEELE were spying on the conversation (maybe Mark.09 had fantastic earring equipment, maybe they have a backdoor to the Wunder's systems, maybe Yui is actually in cahoots with Gendo) to time Rei Q's intervention right in the moment where it'll maximize the chances of him following her.
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger


Return to “Rebuild of Evangelion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests