Impact trigger discrepancy

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Impact trigger disrepancy

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:07 pm

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:Well they could level the place and kill the mastermind and his man servant, I mean, they are literally right above the hole where NERV HQ is...


Assuming they can just wander in at their leisure, which is far from a given. The Chamber of Guf is in a pocket dimension, after all, and with Eva 13 shut down and 4I averted there's probably no way to access it.

So really the blame is on everyone around him (including the two adults in kids bodies) for not explaining why he shouldn't do anything and just stay out of the way, but their hate clouds that and all they see is the destroyer of Earth, Shinji Ikari.


Rubbish. Wille was quite happily explaining things to him when he hopped in Rei Q's Eva and ran away, and that's hardly Wille's fault. The fact that Shinji elected to pull the Spears even though his new BFF told him not to is squarely on him, no one else.
Last edited by Bagheera on Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:22 pm

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:Shinji may be triggering all his, but the inactions of others are giving him a wide birth to do so.

Aside from what others have said, I think you're severely overestimating what a kid (hell, a person period) in Shinji's position would have been capable of absorbing in the brief time before Mark.09 attacked. People accuse Wille of telling too little, but consider the possibility that, instead, they told him too much to start with!

The inherent difficulties of relaying information to someone who's come out of a 14-year coma and represents a potential danger, while needing first and foremost to tend to a base of military operations that could and does come under siege by matter-vaporizing hordes at any time, aside... I'd say the only real mistake Wille made was parading Shinji around on the bridge (which doesn't make sense any way you cut it; Shinji should have remained in proper containment until his identity was confirmed). Everything else is IMHO readily understandable if you're not limiting your perspective to a single person's. Shinji may be the main character but the world actually doesn't revolve around him.

While the film's structure nefariously encourages myopic identification with Shinji's plight, this being Eva and all we can anticipate that this is a quite deliberate setup for a long-delayed payoff. The sooner one can liberate themselves from this "poor mistreated lad who doesn't need to learn anything from his mistakes because he did no wrong" narrative, the more prepared one will be for what's coming.
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Re: Impact trigger disrepancy

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:44 pm

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:Well they could level the place and kill the mastermind and his man servant, I mean, they are literally right above the hole where NERV HQ is... seems like a missed opportunity, or a colossal fuck up on Misato's part.


Nerv HQ is in a very strong defensive position. It's thousands of feet in the air over an enormous open pit, making it virtually unassailable except by air. Anything attacking from the air will have to contend with The Vessel of the Adams, which is kind of a big deal. Units 02 and 08 can't fly, leaving Wunder the one thing in Wille's fleet capable of damaging a far smaller and more maneuverable foe in an aerial battle. And after 4th Impact, Nerv HQ flies off somewhere else, so there's nothing for Wille to attack.

DarkBluePhoenix wrote:Yes, yes, Shinji fucked up big time pulling out those Spears when he did

The bigger issue is that he did at all. Being the main character does not give Shinji license to make world changing decisions that will effect the rest of humanity no matter how good his intentions are. When he takes Unit 13 into Central Dogma, he intends to do exactly that, even saying as much to Asuka, and all because he feels bad about something. How would that look to anyone who isn't Shinji? He's trying to inflict his will and desires on everyone else without their input or consent.
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Postby pwhodges » Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:46 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:He's trying to inflict his will and desires on everyone else without their input or consent.

Though from his perspective he's trying to un-inflict what (he was told by Kaworu) he did previously, not to inflict something more (and he's suitably horrified when he sees that happen).
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Postby Stillborn » Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:56 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:The sooner one can liberate themselves from this "poor mistreated lad who doesn't need to learn anything from his mistakes because he did no wrong" narrative, the more prepared one will be for what's coming.


I tought it was obvious that Shinji's perspective serves only to justify all his treatment in Final. One only needs to remember that Shinji is always wrong. Unless he follows exact instructions of other characters, like a good doggy, he CAN NOT make a decision on his own. He was never a poor misanderstood lad. He was always designed to be the most negative character compared to others, with maybe exception of Gendo. But even Gendo may have some "tragic lover" appeal. Shinji does not. We were suppose to scorn him for his faults and mistakes that no one else makes. It's obvious and not subtle. You really don't need to explain that.

I always knew that Q was poor attempt at Shinji's perspective only to show in the next movie that everyone else was right and he was wrong AGAIN. That's rather a trend already so I think everyone knows that.
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Postby pwhodges » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:00 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:I thought it was obvious that Shinji's perspective serves only to justify all his treatment in Final.

Do you have a leaked copy? Should we be excited? Does it tell us what it actually means to be an impact trigger?
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Postby Stillborn » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:09 pm

Nah. I just use deduction from what I have. Same as everyone else. Does it even matter what it means to be an impact trigger? Shinji is at fault and his defenders are wrong. It's obvious and that's enough for everyone, right?
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Postby Reichu » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:21 pm

Stillborn, you seem to despise the idea that Shinji's journey doesn't involve him being pampered and perfect every step of the way, but then you go and build these strawmen about how Shinji has no function other than to be kicked by everyone for sucking so much. What do you want, exactly?

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Though from his perspective he's trying to un-inflict what (he was told by Kaworu) he did previously, not to inflict something more (and he's suitably horrified when he sees that happen).

Be that as it may, I think what BB was trying to get at was Shinji's recurring difficulty with seeing beyond himself, and the plan Kaworu turns him on to ends up being more of same.

KAWORU: You're a sinner, Shinji-kun, but I know how you can make things better.
Shinji: Really?! I'm listening.
Later...
KAWORU: Huh. Shit ain't right. Looks like this isn't going to work out the way I planned.
Shinji: NO WAY! IT HAS TO WORK, RIGHT NOW!! I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU ANYMORE!!!
Things don't work out as planned...
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Postby Stillborn » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:33 pm

I don't know where you got the stupid idea that I demand Shinji to be pampered. I merely want for others to admit thier own fuck ups instead of treating Shinji as a solely responsible criminal. But from what I've seen I can't count on that.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:49 pm

Stillborn, it looks to me like you're holding the third film guilty of being exactly what it sets out to be, the midway point of the story where everything is in turmoil, while also paradoxically insisting that the final film will simply be a repetition of the third instead of providing any sort of resolution. You can't have it both ways.
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Postby Stillborn » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:56 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:while also paradoxically insisting that the final film will simply be a repetition of the third instead of providing any sort of resolution. You can't have it both ways. I'm going to call for topic once again.


I don't see a paradox here, but yeah. Pretty much it, just with increased level of finger pointing. So I guess I exhausted this derailment.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:18 pm

The paradox is that you have the goals of the 3rd and 4th installments jumbled.

> I merely want for others to admit thier own fuck ups instead of treating Shinji as a solely responsible criminal. But from what I've seen I can't count on that.

What you've seen is the middle of the story. What you have not seen is the finale. You are making the mistake here of demanding from the middle what is to be expected from the end.

Completing the contradiction, you repeatedly insist that the final act will simply escalate the interpersonal conflict and not resolve any of it (i.e., be an extension of the third act and not actually end anything). To put it simply, you have your expectations for 3.0 and 3+1 reversed from what they should be. When expectations are so fundamentally at odds with the basics of storytelling, disappointment is a guarantee.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:21 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:I tought it was obvious that Shinji's perspective serves only to justify all his treatment in Final. One only needs to remember that Shinji is always wrong. Unless he follows exact instructions of other characters, like a good doggy, he CAN NOT make a decision on his own. He was never a poor misanderstood lad. He was always designed to be the most negative character compared to others, with maybe exception of Gendo. But even Gendo may have some "tragic lover" appeal. Shinji does not. We were suppose to scorn him for his faults and mistakes that no one else makes. It's obvious and not subtle. You really don't need to explain that.


And yet, virtually no one seems to agree with your take on matters. Don't you think it's time you stepped back and re-examined the basis for your position, and why you cling to it so fiercely? It can't be as obvious as you say if no one else seems to draw the same conclusions you do.
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Postby Lennik » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:22 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:I tought it was obvious that Shinji's perspective serves only to justify all his treatment in Final. One only needs to remember that Shinji is always wrong. Unless he follows exact instructions of other characters, like a good doggy, he CAN NOT make a decision on his own. He was never a poor misanderstood lad. He was always designed to be the most negative character compared to others, with maybe exception of Gendo. But even Gendo may have some "tragic lover" appeal. Shinji does not. We were suppose to scorn him for his faults and mistakes that no one else makes. It's obvious and not subtle. You really don't need to explain that.


That's weird, considering his character arc has always been about learning to love himself.

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Postby Geometer » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:23 am

I think I have to agree somewhat with stillborn, Shinji is almost in a situation where he can do no right. On one hand he is too immature, impulsive, and selfish to be making any big decisions on his own. Yet if he just listens to the authorities be they NERV, WILLE, or even Kaworu he isn't going to grow up either. It would be very disappointing if in 3+1 Shinji just becomes obedient to WILLE and that turns out to be the right decision according to the narrative. Of course this is assuming there isn't any nuanced middle road for Shinji to take, but 3+1 has to present this to Shinji who won't be in the mental state for decision making anytime soon, and develop the other characters and explain the state of the world and finish the plot with NERV/WILLE/GENDO. I can understand why one would be negative about 3+1. I guess its about how much confidence you put into Anno.

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Postby jcmoorehead » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:44 am

Shinji isn't really in a situation where he can do nothing right though. He is in a situation now where he will feel awful for what happened and what he nearly did but he can recover from it. It just takes time and communication. I have no doubt that as angry as they are likely to be at him Asuka and Misato will allow Shinji time and will talk to him about what happened and what he can do going forward. They will also allow Shinji to put across his side of the story.

They will likely know that Shinji didn't mean to trigger Third Impact/Near Third back at 2.22, Misato will definitely know this as she was there. So we can resolve that thread. He can tell them what happened at NERV, how Kaworu told him that he was to blame and that by pulling the spears they could save/revert things and Shinji truly believed that and just wanted to help. Misato can maybe scold him for being stupid/naive but then we can see them reach out and start to try to help him. Shinji can maybe have a big breakdown about the situation, cry his heart out over what happens and in a moment Misato/Asuka feel bad for him and maybe understand themselves what he has been through and how he was manipulated.

This serves for them to then see him as a victim and strengthens their desire to fight Gendo. I can understand people looking at it with a pessimistic viewpoint but we are at the point of the story where it always the darkest for the hero. Where it seems like their is no hope, the bad guys has everything, the hero has no friends and no power and there is no way out, we've seen it in many stories. Shinji can recover from this and find hope.

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Postby Reichu » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:58 am

What he needs, IMO, is to be able to undergo a period of ample self-reflection, wherein he is both given moral support AND denied the opportunity to do further damage to himself and others. Wille could have, in time, provided this if Shinji had given it opportunity. They wanted to keep him from doing further harm, and even with overall social tensions as they were, both Sakura and Mari seemed of proper emotional constitution to help Shinji start the process of rebuilding, as it were. Shinji understandably couldn't be the center of attention while Wille's crew was busy with life and death matters (remember they retrieved Eva-01 in the first place to make Wunder battle-ready), and the fact that the war still isn't over will pose continuing difficulties. Things might get worse still before they get better. But they will get better.

The human organism is versatile and adaptable. This is a recurrent theme in Eva, after all. Bad stuff happens. People suffer and even die. But as long as you're alive, there is still hope, still a chance to find happiness. (Kaworu has even spoken to Shinji in this continuity about this -- and even if the words feel empty to us, Shinji will be clinging to Kaworu's memory for better and for worse.) Things will look up again; we just need to be patient when it comes to the how.
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Postby Geometer » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:37 pm

^
Not that is wrong, it just that in a way its just going back to square one for Shinji. The problem I have is not that Shinji is an innocent scapegoat being wrongfully punished, but that he actually is in the wrong. He does need to be humbled and punished instead acting out on his own again making everything worse. He really should just shut the hell up, listen to WILLE, and calm down. But at the same time doing this would lead to a regression in his character arc. He would become the same passive boy he was at the start of the series. Just following what others say so that they like him, and he feels a bit better but never gaining any self respect. He would never want to act on his own again and would never truly love himself, the whole point of his arc.

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Postby jcmoorehead » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:45 pm

View Original PostGeometer wrote:^
He really should just shut the hell up, listen to WILLE, and calm down. But at the same time doing this would lead to a regression in his character arc. He would become the same passive boy he was at the start of the series. He would never want to act on his own again and would never truly love himself, the whole point of his arc.


He doesn't necessarily have to become passive again because of it it depends on how WILLE handle things. He can be punished for his actions, I don't know how they would punish him really, put him in a cell for a week perhaps? Yell at him? I think if anything Shinji can be punished but also be given the opportunity to make amends for his actions too.

Have people speak to him, I can see Sakura/Mari doing that if no one else. Have him apologize for what he has done and also express a desire to make amends for it. Have him maybe contribute in small ways to make himself useful, have him slowly regain trust and regularly communicate with him. He might regress for a time and become passive but if they give him the chance to grow and talk to him then he can rise out of that again and learn to love himself.

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Postby Reichu » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:53 pm

We agree that Shinji needs to grow up a bit, yes? Shutting his stupid kid mouth and listening to the grown-ups (who aren't his dad, because fuck that guy) would not be the road to "regression". It's what he needs to do if he's going to actually learn anything. That's how life works. You act like a dumb kid and ignore what more experienced people tell you, then once circumstances bites you in the ass hard enough you're forced to stop, listen, and reflect.
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