Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby pwhodges » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:04 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:^I don't want a movie that's 50%-90% exposition with a cliffhanger/downer finale that would otherwise be rushed and nonsensical because I don't understand what the stakes are or who the characters are or care about the world after the timeskip.

And no one except you (and maybe one other) expects Anno to produce such a thing.

Think about it. The questions leftover from 2.22, and the HUNDREDS of questions 3.33 brought up. [...] DO YOU REALIZE HOW MUCH EXPOSITION JUST THE BARE MINIMUM OF THESE WOULD NEED?

Most of those can be answered as part of the film without overt exposition, and some are indeed the reason for another film to exist! You're just projecting imaginary phantoms in the sky and getting worked up about them.

Anno is making a film; and when it comes out you can watch it, decide if you like it, and decide if your complaints made repeatedly in advance over the several preceding years were justified fully, partly, or not at all. I expect to hear from you then and will be curious what you have to say at that point - but for now I'm simply not interested..
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Bagheera » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:34 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:^I don't want a movie that's 50%-90% exposition with a cliffhanger/downer finale that would otherwise be rushed and nonsensical because I don't understand what the stakes are or who the characters are or care about the world after the timeskip.


But we won't get that because most of the questions you're asking aren't important (and some of the rest, e.g. why 3I started the way it did, are already answered). You talk about the bare minimum, but what you mean is the bare minimum for the story you want to see told. That doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the story Anno's actually telling, which is all about Shinji and his journey.

The only question that needs to be answered is: What happens next? And that will be answered, for obvious reasons, so take a breath and just relax.
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:44 pm

"Develop Wille Crew," lol please no. The only "development" the Bridge Bunnies got in NGE proper was that one likes comic books, one likes guitar, and one likes Ritsuko. If you want something more than that, you're certainly not getting it out of Shin Eva. This is the stuff fan fics were made for, and there is no judgement in one being made on that subject.

Besides, the only Bridge Bunny I ever wanted developed was the one in 1.11/Episodes 1&2 that was in one shot after the first Angel battle ended that looked kinda like anime Burt Reynolds. No dice in either continuity.

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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Reichu » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:45 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Most of those can be answered as part of the film without overt exposition, and some are indeed the reason for another film to exist!

Almost feels like there's some kind of selective amnesia going on with regard to Eva's trademark combination of extremely dense visual storytelling and hyper-economical verbal exposition. At least as far as the "everything won't fit!" chorus is concerned.
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby BlueBasilisk » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:07 pm

Just look at tall the debate we've had over Until you come to me or that picture of Adam impaled on the Spear of Longinus. :tongue:

Shin Evangelion will explain what it needs to explain to properly tell the story, leave some clues for the viewer to figure out other things and probably leave others as mysteries, just as Neon Genesis did. A lot of what happened in the 14 year time skip just isn't important or doesn't pertain to Shinji since he wasn't there. It would be interesting to know, sure, but I'm not expecting anything but the true Third Impact to be explored in any great depth.

Out of curiosity, which plot threads to you think were dropped between 2 and 3, Ray?

Addressing the title question, no, I don't think Anno regrets making Rebuild, and I'm sure he would have said something if he did, or dropped the series, or crapped out a conclusion after 3.0 and moved on to something else in the meantime instead of letting it simmer for a while. But I do think too many people treat the franchise as sacrosanct and get too bent out of shape when Anno does something they don't like.
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Gendo'sPapa » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:34 pm

This is an argument that will never be won. This same debate will continue ad nauseum & in the end I would say it's not a fault of the films but the viewer.

Rebuild is taking place in a much vaster universe than NGE. One with a lot more intricate - but unexplained - world building going on. For the story Anno & Crew is telling the grander going ons in that universe are not what matters. This universe has always been about Shinji's personal narrative & the more things go bad for Shinji the more he's going to cut himself off from the world around him. He doesn't know what's going on because he can't get out of his own way.

Having an issue with that is a perfectly valid criticism. Doesn't make the work any less successful. So far three films in I would say Rebuild is succeeding very well at what the films have set out to achieve. Problem is certain viewers - namely people who want every detail down to the most inane of inanities - want the more textbook narrative. Here's a scene of Misato & Ritsuko talking about this thing to fill in world building details, here's a scene of Asuka & Mari talking about their childhoods, here's a scene where Maya sits down with a grunt technician over coffee & explains why she hates young guys & here's the scene where Gendo & Fuyutsuki talk about their evil machinations in full detail.
Basically asking for the HBO Games of Thrones/Westworld type narrative. One that leaves no stone unturned.
Rebuild has zero interest in that narrative.
This is not a failure on the creative team's behalf nor is it a failure of the films, it just happens to be the story they are telling.

You're not going to get all the questions answered in Final. All those little questions that irk you are never going to be fulfilled. If anything I expect Final will throw even more questions out there as it goes about answering the only question that really is worth answering - how will Shinji go on living with himself?

The viewers who can't accept are probably going to irked by Rebuild until... well until death I suppose.
The viewers who accept the films for what they are & just embrace them as personal narratives set against the backdrop of grand sci-fi operatics are going to appreciate them a lot more.
Nothing in the three Rebuild films to date showcase a failure on the creative team's behalf at achieving their goals.
The story they're telling - Shinji's story - is coming through fine & clear.
Like in NGE, don't get distracted by the colorful robots & large battle scenes. When all is said & done it's just a story about a lost boy.


*I will await the usual "Yeah, but what about ancillary character Mari & that promise a crew member made in one comment during an interview back in 2006!" All of which really matter zilch when all is said & done.*

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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:09 pm

Gendo'sPapa wrote:...how will Shinji go on living with himself?

Well, in all honesty, considering how much damage Shinji realizes he's caused, he'll probably kill himself in Final, and finally break the cycle of repeats. I could totally see that ending happening, and of course, Asuka finding the body.
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Bagheera » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:13 pm

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:Well, in all honesty, considering how much damage Shinji realizes he's caused, he'll probably kill himself in Final, and finally break the cycle of repeats. I could totally see that ending happening, and of course, Asuka finding the body.


I can't, because that's not how Anno rolls. Never has been, never will be.
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:23 pm

Bagheera wrote:I can't, because that's not how Anno rolls. Never has been, never will be.

How do we know, they said it would have a drastically different ending, and Shinji killing himself would certainly qualify. Anno also goes for the unexpected, and if you recall, Kyoko killed herself and Asuka discovered the body. It isn't unprecedented, and Shinji has contemplated it before in the anime in Episode 4 (at least according to the evageeks wiki) And considering how out of left field rebuild can be at times, that kind of ending is entirely possible.
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Reichu » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:30 pm

Gendo'sPapa: I think you may be guilty of going too far in the other direction. You've admitted elsewhere that the world-building isn't something that especially interests YOU, but for lots of us it's a big part of the experience. Taking this hard-nosed stance, again and again, that nothing really "matters" except the most important aspect(s) of the narrative is needlessly reductive, on top of being patronizing to fans who are capable of enjoying these productions on multiple levels without being, well, Rays.

DarkBluePhoenix: The "different ending" you seem to be referring to was part of the original project plan for Rebuild, and no longer applies. That we won't get an ending anything like EoTV or EoE kind of goes without saying now, since the narrative has gone so far off the rails.

I wouldn't call Shinji killing himself "unexpected" at this point. Death would be an obvious and "easy" way out. What isn't so obvious is how the current narrative could be resolved WITHOUT him committing suicide. I mean, it's so not-obvious some of our regulars drive themselves crazy trying to resolve in their minds how in the world this could ever work.
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Bagheera » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:48 pm

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:How do we know,


Because we know Anno, and we know that "unexpected" is only part of his oeuvre. The guy doesn't do downer endings. Never has.
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:56 pm

Reichu, I think the prevailing question isn't whether or not GendosPapa or Ray like world building, but whether or not Anno does. Looking objectively at his filmography, Anno rarely leaves those elements entirely unexplained.

I personally think that everyone is assuming that the explanation is somehow more complicated than it's actually gonna be when it's finally revealed. Anno has also been consistantly known to keep his world building surprisingly concise, despite its seemingly apparent density.

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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:01 pm

Reichu wrote:DarkBluePhoenix: The "different ending" you seem to be referring to was part of the original project plan for Rebuild, and no longer applies. That we won't get an ending anything like EoTV or EoE kind of goes without saying now, since the narrative has gone so far off the rails.

I wouldn't call Shinji killing himself "unexpected" at this point. Death would be an obvious and "easy" way out. What isn't so obvious is how the current narrative could be resolved WITHOUT him committing suicide. I mean, it's so not-obvious some of our regulars drive themselves crazy trying to resolve in their minds how in the world this could ever work.

Well, Asuka could catch him in the act and stop him, that would certainly resolve the issue of him not killing himself off. It would also be a turnaround from the series, seeing as Asuka found her mother afterwards, it would be an interesting change. But then again, Shikinami is not Soryu, so we don't really know if their backstories are the same in regards to Kyoko, or if Kyoko was even her mother in rebuild.

But with the current narrative the way it is, the inevitable ending could be Shinji being dead. Unless Misato or Asuka talk to him, or Kaworu rouses him somehow from his stupor, or Rei II comes back, I don't see any logical way for Shinji not to take the easy way out and run away permanently. Shinji in the rebuild is an impulsive fool (if 3.0 and the EVA-13 incident isn't enough proof, then 2.0 and the battle with Zeruel shows that impulsiveness as well), so him taking his own life without thinking it through and then it being too late to save him would be an interesting fade to black.

But we really won't know for sure until Final does come out, whenever that may be.

Bagheera wrote:Because we know Anno, and we know that "unexpected" is only part of his oeuvre. The guy doesn't do downer endings. Never has.

Who's to say things won't change? As Reichu pointed out, the story is off the rails, and the current story has us heading towards his death. So you can at least admit it's a possibility. Looking at his works collectively as you mentioned, there are always outliers in statistical analysis. Just because the everything points to one conclusion, doesn't mean another possibility exists out there that is the opposite of the present data.

Also, I wouldn't exactly call the end of EoE a happy ending, it was quite morose in fact. If I recall, Shinji starts crying after trying to choke Asuka and she touches his face and says she feels sick.I didn't have any WAFF in that moment.
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Reichu » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:33 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I personally think that everyone is assuming that the explanation is somehow more complicated than it's actually gonna be when it's finally revealed.

If "everyone" is Ray and people like him -- goodness gracious, I hope they're in a minority -- I'll be the first to admit I have no bloody idea where this weird anxiety regarding unresolved elements comes from. Like I said, it's as if they've forgotten just what it is they're watching.

DarkBluePhoenix wrote:But with the current narrative the way it is, the inevitable ending could be Shinji being dead. (...) I don't see any logical way for Shinji not to take the easy way out and run away permanently.

Shinji seems to be in a similar state as he was at the beginning of EoE, so it's probably too much to anticipate that he will be actively suicidal, though passively welcoming death would certainly be on the table. EoE, however, already WAS a gigantic metaphor for suicide, so it would be kind of redundant to go there again.

As Reichu pointed out, the story is off the rails, and the current story has us heading towards his death.

I'm not sure how the latter follows in any way from the former.

But we really won't know for sure until Final does come out, whenever that may be.

Sounds like a good reason to lose the expectations ("inevitable ending" and such) and wait for the story that Anno wants to tell!
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby BlueBasilisk » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:05 am

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:Who's to say things won't change? As Reichu pointed out, the story is off the rails, and the current story has us heading towards his death. So you can at least admit it's a possibility. Looking at his works collectively as you mentioned, there are always outliers in statistical analysis. Just because the everything points to one conclusion, doesn't mean another possibility exists out there that is the opposite of the present data.


He could, but it's equally possible he and the others could live forever thanks to the Curse of Eva. Shinji "finding a place that teaches him hope" doesn't make it sound so inevitable. Shinji's just in his nadir moment. Nadia tried to kill herself in a similar position. Her friends (and the blue water) weren't having it.

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I personally think that everyone is assuming that the explanation is somehow more complicated than it's actually gonna be when it's finally revealed. Anno has also been consistantly known to keep his world building surprisingly concise, despite its seemingly apparent density.

I'm sure it'll all be a lot more clear simply by explaining what the Adams are. NGE becomes a lot more transparent once you know Adam and Lilith are ancient aliens. :tongue:
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Ray » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:10 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:on top of being patronizing to fans who are capable of enjoying these productions on multiple levels without being, well, Rays.


:finger:

Does simply wanting narrative in-universe consistency and being able to understand WTF is going on make me such a horrible person?

Ever watch a movie and by the time you get to the big battle with the giant monster you're saying to yourself. "I don't care what happens to these people or characters anymore?"

That's (mostly) how I feel about Final at this point. I can't really bring myself to care about anyone anymore. I can't care about Shinji because the little hope he had left to be redeemed was crushed in 3.33, and at this point nothing can give him hope that isn't a narrative copout.

I can't care about Misato and Asuka anymore because they've changed so drastically to the point they may as well be entirely different people from the ones we got to know in the first two movies. Why am I supposed to still care about them? (and I know Misato has 'always had this darker side to her' that's missing the point.)



But I want to care because I liked these characters in the first few movies, and seeing Misato turned irreversibly into Gendo-Lite is heartbreaking. But not in the way that should make sense.

I wouldn't call Shinji killing himself "unexpected" at this point. Death would be an obvious and "easy" way out. What isn't so obvious is how the current narrative could be resolved WITHOUT him committing suicide.


Anno obviously isn't going to have Shinji kill himself.

My worry is that (assuming he survives the rebuild) Anno will expect us to believe there's hope for him after the events of the series. But simply watching the movie the 'hope' will come as a narrative copout.

I mean Freaky, had similar complaints about the ending of Batman V Superman, claiming the hope and emotion was 'undeserved' given all the narrative inconsistencies. Yet you don't say he's terrible for questioning Zack Snyder's creative decisions.

EDIT: and that's it alright? I'm done talking about it.
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Lennik » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:36 am

View Original PostRay wrote:I can't care about Shinji because the little hope he had left to be redeemed was crushed in 3.33, and at this point nothing can give him hope that isn't a narrative copout.


This is the nature of the end of the second act. You need to be patient and trust Anno to tell a story instead of deciding ahead of time that it's not going to work.

View Original PostRay wrote:I can't care about Misato and Asuka anymore because they've changed so drastically to the point they may as well be entirely different people from the ones we got to know in the first two movies. Why am I supposed to still care about them? (and I know Misato has 'always had this darker side to her' that's missing the point.)


You say it's missing the point, but present no argument as to why you think so. They're trying to save the world. And they haven't changed that much. That's why Asuka saves Shinji at the end of 3.0 and why Misato can't bring herself to kill him.

View Original PostRay wrote:...seeing Misato turned irreversibly into Gendo-Lite is heartbreaking.


It's also untrue. There are parallels to be drawn, sure, but to argue that she's Gendo-Lite at all, much less irreversibly, is flat-out absurd. Again, she's trying to save the world, and despite her difficulty at showing it when it would be most practical, she's clearly shown to still care about him. You can't discount that just because she's mad at him.

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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Reichu » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:26 am

View Original PostRay wrote:Does simply wanting narrative in-universe consistency and being able to understand WTF is going on make me such a horrible person?

Talk about a loaded question. If you think I or anyone else thinks you're a "horrible person" for just being kind of annoying on an Internet forum, you might want to, on your own time, look into the reasons why you jump to that conclusion. You have a reputation and you seem to be at least passingly aware of it. If you don't like your reputation, be aware that getting defensive and flipping people off is not how you go about shaking it off. Actually changing the behavior that has gradually turned you into a human punchline is more effective.

Ever watch a movie and by the time you get to the big battle with the giant monster you're saying to yourself. "I don't care what happens to these people or characters anymore?" (...) I can't care about Misato and Asuka anymore because they've changed so drastically to the point they may as well be entirely different people

Judging entirely from how you act and what you say, the claim that you don't care rings about as hollow as anything possibly can. If you really didn't care, you would stop, well, caring about these damned movies and writing lengthy, repetitive diatribes on the Internet about how much you care.
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Ray » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:57 am

^You shot first cowboy. :irked:

Again. It's clear this conversation isn't going anywhere until the last movie comes out. Again, done talking about it.
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Bagheera
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Bagheera » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:49 am

View Original PostRay wrote:Does simply wanting narrative in-universe consistency and being able to understand WTF is going on make me such a horrible person?


No. But the problem is that you're assuming a lot more needs to go into that than actually does. Between Anno's use of montage and his mastery of packing loads of detail into concise exposition I am supremely confident we'll get all the answers we need to appreciate Final in, like, five minutes of screen time. And that's not counting all the information that will be provided via normal character interactions and the story itself.

Simply put, your expectations/demands undersell Anno as a director and a storyteller by a considerable margin, and ignore his accomplishments in his past works (and Eva works in particular). People have explained the why of this to you on multiple occasions, and yet you keep coming back with the same tired arguments in thread after thread after thread, relentlessly beating the same tired drum over and over and over again. You haven't persuaded anybody thus far, and you're not going to persuade anybody because your arguments aren't, well, persuasive. At this point you really need a new approach, because right now we're in copypasta territory and it's gotten pretty tedious.
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


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