Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Apox » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:28 am

At least the way it's turning out. Let's be honest, the story direction and writing has been subpar up to this point. Most of what made Evangelion special was abandoned or "transmorphifed" to something unrecognizable (I'm looking at you super saiyan Shinji 2.22 and surprise beast mode!). Characters with virtually no backstory or purpose were introduced, and insane amounts of new potential lore were dumped into the story with practically no way to decipher it.

What's mari's back story?
What's new Asuka's back story?
What happened within the 14 year time gap? Why is the world still fubar even tho the end credits of 2.22 suggest 3rd impact was stopped?
Where the hell are all these new evangelion units coming from? (Eva-4, all the units in neo-nerv's hq).
What happened to gendo's eyes? What about the wille / nerv split?
Hows 4.0 going to resolve all these loose threads? (spoiler: it wont).

The generic response from far too forgiving fanboys is that this stuff doesn't matter. IT DOES MATTER. Why is everyone so forgiving of terrible writing? I feel like anno did his BEST work when he was depressed; happy anno is disappoint.

I think anno really wrote himself into a hole. He decided after 1.11 that he wanted to take the series (rightfully) somewhere else, and so 2.22 and 3.33 became total clusterfucks.

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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Sachi » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:06 am

That's just like your opinion, man. I love what Rebuild has brought to the franchise, flaws and all. #hatersgonnahate

Seriously though. All the complaints you listed can either be explained, or don't matter. Backstory is irrelevant; this is Shinji's story. All 4.0 needs to do is resolve his story, and all is well.
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Apox » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:11 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:That's just like your opinion, man. I love what Rebuild has brought to the franchise, flaws and all. #hatersgonnahate

Seriously though. All the complaints you listed can either be explained, or don't matter. Backstory is irrelevant; this is Shinji's story. All 4.0 needs to do is resolve his story, and all is well.


I actually like the rebuilds, but just because I like something doesn't mean I can't be critical or objective. If you truly love something, you'll be critical of it. I wouldn't file the rebuilds under "popular trash" but it's not far off.

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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Sachi » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:19 am

Rebuild is certainly far from perfect, but definitely not anywhere close to "trash". NGE was severely flawed in many ways as well, don't forget. Should we also ask if Anno regrets the original series? (perhaps, since he felt the need to revisit it)
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Reichu » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:31 am

OP: Whatever you or I or anyone else here think Anno feels, it's not going to actually impact the reality of what the man feels about anything, so, I dunno, why even bother talking about it? What kind of perspective-altering truth are you hoping to reach by posing such a self-limiting question?

The way you're talking, it sounds like you're too fixated upon other people's opinions (reference to "fanboys" is a dead giveaway) and you're looking for "permission" to like the films less than nebulous Others seemingly expect you to like them. You don't need anyone's permission. We like what we like and it isn't all that big of a deal. But if you expect people to acknowledge your opinion that the films might be not be that great, remember that, in turn, you have to acknowledge that not everyone will agree with that.
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby pwhodges » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:52 am

Whether or not Anno has regrets doesn't affect the work he has given us. We can like or dislike any part of it, praise it or criticise it as we see fit.

Many artists - musicians, painters, film-makers, poets, whatever - have doubts about some or even all of their work. Often it is these doubts that spur them to greater efforts; sometimes they destroy or attempt to destroy what is seen by others as some of their best work. Maybe it is because something is their best work that they become frustrated that it's not even better.

I am not a fan of the "death of the artist" school of criticism when it comes to interpretation or explanation - but it is clear that many artists are not able to form a dispassionate view of the quality or worth of their own work. Thus it is the work we should judge, and we should take the artist's own response to it as another opinion to consider, but not an overriding assessment.

So in the end your question is of little interest as part of a discussion of the Rebuild films; and the matter of their successes and shortcomings is quite extensively covered in this forum already - which is not to suggest that there isn't more that could be said.
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Ray » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:06 am

Same complaint different thread.

2.22 and 3.33 set up and threw out too many plot lines and elements. So there's not going to be enough time in the last movie to address them all. On this I generally agree, there's no way Shinji can come back after what he did in 3.33.

I don't think he regrets making rebuild, I just think he's didn't think things through when he decided to retell the entire television series in only four movies.
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby pwhodges » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:15 am

View Original PostRay wrote:Same complaint different thread.

Nothing new there, then! :wink:

I just think he's didn't think things through when he decided to retell the entire television series in only four movies.

But he's not retelling the series - it's a different story.
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Ray » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:24 am

Well the thing is he included certain plot elements in the first few movies and he completely threw them out the window in 3.33 just for a cheap ham-fisted plot twist. And it looks like those elements are not coming back given he's only got one movie left.

Maybe the proper term is "bit off more than he could chew".
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby jcmoorehead » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:31 am

What if they weren't thrown out of the window though? I mean we still have one movie left and all it takes is a few minutes or lines of dialogue to explain a few of those things. Lets be honest too, it's not like the original did a fantastic job of wrapping up all its plot elements either. It introduced things and never explained them and we had to rely on extra-canon stuff to fill in the blanks.

There is still time to explain what Mari's story is, still time to explain what makes Shikinami different and there is still time to redeem Shinji.

Hell I don't even think 3.33 is that ham-fisted of a plot twist, it shows the consequences of Shinji's actions in 2.22 really well. Shinji didn't listen to the others, he pushed the Eva too far. The Eva being a machine that everyone knows can be unpredictable.

The original series shown this just as much when we saw Unit 01 going berserk god knows how many times, even Asuka had a controlled berserk moment in EoE. The only difference between then and now is we got a few more visual effects.

Maybe I'm just easily pleased or something but I'm enjoying what the Rebuilds have brought to the franchise. They're different enough to stand alone but still engrossing enough to make me want to stay involved.

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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Reichu » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:40 am

Before he clarified, I thought Ray was referring to the original plan, which was to retell the series in a series of movies (not actually four; the third would have been split in two parts, like EoE), changing relatively minor things along the way and swapping in a new ending after the events of 24. Arguably it wasn't THIS that was poorly thought through, but the decision following 1.0 to deviate from that plan. Though I guess even then, he'd saddled himself with figuring out how to work a mysterious "new character" (promised as early as the first project teaser) into a relatively unaltered narrative, which was always going to be a problem if that character was intended to have any importance at all.

jcmoorehead wrote:even Asuka had a controlled berserk moment in EoE

Just to be a pedantic twat, "controlled berserk" is an oxymoron. "Berserk" is derived from bousou, meaning "out of control". If it's "controlled", then by definition it's not also "out of control". :wink: There's probably a better way to phrase what was happening between Asuka and Mama. Semi-berserk, maybe.

(Agree with pretty much everything else you've said. ^_^ )
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Gendo'sPapa » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:57 am

No. I do not think Anno regrets doing Rebuild. Or that he wrote himself into a corner.

If anything he's done exactly what he did with NGE. Wrote things in such a way that the ending seems absolutely hopeless. And while End of Evangelion is a powerful/wonderful experience that crushes souls it is not without hope. Only difference is right now someone can sit down & watch the entire story of NGE from start to finish. Can't do that with Rebuild just yet.

And yeah, that 14 year time gap? Aside from how Misato (and Asuka) changed over that missing time nothing else really matters for the story being told.

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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Bagheera » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:45 am

View Original PostApox wrote:I actually like the rebuilds, but just because I like something doesn't mean I can't be critical or objective.


You aren't, though. You're just throwing out random elements that aren't important to the story and calling it a mess because they aren't addressed. Missing the point =/= being critical and objective.

Looking at the level of planning and detail that went into each film, and at how much of himself Anno put into each film, I think the notion that he regrets making them is way off base. He is telling the story he wants to tell, and he is using the income generated by the movies both to finance his own projects and to enable other animators to finance theirs. That's been his game plan from the beginning, so I don't see much room for regret there.
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Guy Nacks » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:24 pm

He regrets making rebuild the same way Michael Bay regrets making the Transformers movies: He doesn't, because those motherfuckers print money.
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:02 pm

Anno said that buried his depressed soul into Eva Q, and I don't think it's fair to add more to that. Anno's pretty honest about his feelings, so he'll let us know as soon as he regrets something.

And within terms of "technical failings," I don't think Shin Eva will be any worse than EoE. No lore was sacrificed in the 14-year time gap. The 4 Adams (or whatever they are) still exist. If anything the 14-year gap becomes part of the mysterious lore, adding more to it with it with the FoIs rather than subtracting from it. And just like EoE proved to us, complicated lore can be explained by a 30-second ramble to a depressed kid during a car ride. It's not going to take any meaningful chunk of Shin Eva to explain the time gap or what the 4 Adams are up to. At most it's just gonna be about a minute of Misato rambling and then the rest of the film is free to explore emotions and battles. Is that something we can criticize? Well yeah, about as well as we criticize the same expositional executions in EoE.
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Ray » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:22 pm

Yaaaay. . . exposition dumps. the bane of good storytelling. :irked:
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:27 pm

Again, EoE (the high-watermark meantioned often in our discussions) does the exact same thing. Also, Anno has turned into-dumps into a finely tuned art form in Shin Godzilla. If any storyteller can make that interesting, it's Anno.
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Bagheera » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:32 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Yaaaay. . . exposition dumps. the bane of good storytelling. :irked:


. . . if used poorly. As with all literary and film techniques execution is key. There are plenty of times where exposition is both necessary and appropriate.
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby pwhodges » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:25 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Yaaaay. . . exposition dumps. the bane of good storytelling. :irked:

...if they're stuffed in without sufficient justification for the context. But when done properly, so that, for instance, a character is being told something they need to know by an appropriate person at the right time, then they can also be a natural part of the action and flow of the story.
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Re: Do you think anno regrets making rebuild?

Postby Ray » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:47 pm

^I don't want a movie that's 50%-90% exposition with a cliffhanger/downer finale that would otherwise be rushed and nonsensical because I don't understand what the stakes are or who the characters are or care about the world after the timeskip.

Think about it. The questions leftover from 2.22, and the HUNDREDS of questions 3.33 brought up.

1)Where did all this new technology come from?

2)Why did the Impact happen when Shinji killed Zeruel when it was EXPLICITLY SAID an Impact could ONLY happen when an Angel reached Lilith (which I thought was the whole point of fighting the angels to begin with)?

3)What is the nature of instrumentality in this version of the Eva-verse and how is it different from EOE?

4)Why is Lilith half formed into her EOE self and missing her head if Shinji is supposedly the only one who can trigger an impact?

5)Who launched Unit 01 into space and why?

6) If the world is a post apocalyptic mess because of Shinji, then how did Wille get the resources to launch a rocket into space and build the Wunder in the first place?

7) What the hell is the Key Of Nebuchadnezzar and why did Kaji give it to Gendo if it would play a part in causing global destruction?

8) What is the nature of the angelic infection in Asuka's eye?

9) Why did Shinji's Tape Player come back but Rei didn't?

10) What did Kaworu do for Nerv, Gendo, and Seele during the 14 years Shinji was in Unit 01?

11) Why did Gendo betray Seele and how is his plan going to go forward without them?

12) How am I supposed to believe Shinji has any hope when 3.33 outright made him guilty for ENDING THE WORLD!?

DO YOU REALIZE HOW MUCH EXPOSITION JUST THE BARE MINIMUM OF THESE WOULD NEED? and those are just the in-lore questions that could be answered with an clunky exposition dump.

But then you add in The Characters, and that's when the light at the end of the tunnel dims:

1) Rebuilding the bridges and connections that 3.33 nuked with a 14 year timeskip that undid any good Shinji did.

2) Explaining why Misato and Asuka all but abused and emotionally tortured Shinji/have them apologize to each other (assuming they don't act morally superior because he almost caused Human extinction which they very well could given the stakes they're playing for).

3) Developing Rei Q's character.

4) Finding out who Mari is and her connection to Kaji, the Eva, Nerv and Wille.

5)What happened to Touji, Hikari, Kensuke, and PenPen (are they dead? and if they are then how did Sakura survive
Tokyo-3?).

6)Making us care for the Wunder Crew even though they've done nothing but shoot hateful glances at Shinji and spout technobabble.

7) Make us care enough about the new post-timeskip world to NOT want Shinji to just cause an impact and end it. Give us SOME hope that Shinji can get out of the rebuilds without either a quick death, a troubled, miserable life ahead of him

8) Explain in a believable way why Misato and Asuka would still care after he's been dead to them, emotionally and physically for FOURTEEN years.

Those are plot elements that involve emotion and character development, and you need screentime with the characters to do that. Screentime that compounded with the HUGE amount of exposition needed to explain what happened during the timeskip, the last movie simply doesn't have.
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