Talking to Themselves/Mind Trip Trilogy

[Director Black]

I've labeled the episodes where those angels appear as the mind trip trilogy: three acts that use the show's plot to develop their characters. I'm opening this thread to have a discussion about it after being talked about in the thread about the MPE's souls.

The question that many people ask, what do you get out of the three for each character?

For Shinji, it showed that even though he tried to put back his depression with false confidence, it crashed down.

For Asuka, it showed how fragile she really is and how she may have romantic feelings for Shinji, but because of her childhood, she has no idea how to express them.

For Rei, it showed her inner self. It was true that she felt sad, but this was the first time she knew why.

[The Eva Monkey]

For me, each of those episodes was about the pilots confronting themselves, as well as the soul of the Eva. Each encounter set them about on their final character arc.

For Shinji and Rei, they accepted the experience. Shinji implicitly understood the presence in the Eva to be his mother's. Rei understood her identity relationship with Lilith, although she was set back by her death, but Kaworu later set her back on the path. Asuka fought it tooth and nail, and shut herself away from her mother, and it wasn't until EoE that the damage was undone.

I really liked these moments in the show. It disappointed me that Sadamoto cut Shinji's encounter, which I felt was one of the most pivotal moments in his character arc. The complete lack of these three encounters kind of illustrates how shallow the character development is in Rebuild.

[Sachi]

For Shinji, are we talking about his experience with Leliel in ep 16, or his month in the Eva after Zeruel in ep 20? I think the OP is referring to the former, while The Eva Monkey is speaking of the latter.

Personally, if we are going to refer to any trio of instances as the Mind Trip Trilogy, it should be eps 20, 22, and 23. As The Eva Monkey says, these are each pivotal moments wherein the pilots confront themselves, and are each set onto their final arcs. Leliel does mark an important turn in the series and in Shinji's arc, as that's when things start getting darker and more introspective, but it's only a taste of what's to come later on.

[Arcadia's legacy]

I really liked these moments in the show. It disappointed me that Sadamoto cut Shinji's encounter, which I felt was one of the most pivotal moments in his character arc. The complete lack of these three encounters kind of illustrates how shallow the character development is in Rebuild.

Wait, I'm confused. Are you referring to the manga or NTE?

[Mr. Tines]

Wait, I'm confused. Are you referring to the manga or NTE?

Both as I read it -- Sadamoto's manga omits one, and the Rebuilds have had none so far.

[Arcadia's legacy]

and the Rebuilds have had none so far.

Which confuses me further since NTE deliberately takes a different approach with how it handles its characterization, so i fail to see how a lack of Angel mindscapes makes for a valid criticism against it

[pwhodges]

Remember that Mr Tines hasn't watched the 2nd or 3rd Rebuild films yet, so he may not have picked up on that.

[Reichu]

I think Tines was just commenting on Monkey's post rather than the films themselves, and I agree with his impression. I don't agree with Aaron, though. Much as I dislike the manga I don't think omitting Leliel is in and of itself a problem; #16 's Shinji developments can be compressed into #20 without much issue. The films, thankfully, decided not to be an NGE highlights reel.

[Director Black]

I don't think omitting Leliel is in and of itself a problem; #16 's Shinji developments can be compressed into #20 without much issue. The films, thankfully, decided not to be an NGE highlights reel.

Let's not forget that if Leliel wasn't included in the anime, we wouldn't have the awesomeness of seeing Unit 01 rip it's way out it.

Aside from that, the two mind trips make sense to me because you can't fit both in one.

With Ep. 16, we got some more history with the angels and Eva units (Asuka's comment of disbelief that she piloting something as dangerous as an Eva), as well as an amazing start to the psychological arc of the show, and with Ep. 20, it was the same, but with the many of the best psychological parts in the former episode done even better (Gendo's conversation with Yui and the foreshadowing of Instrumentality ("Do you want to become one with me?"))

[Sachi]

Episode 16 is important because I think it's the first time Shinji comes to acknowledge his father as an enemy, and the following episodes show their falling out over the Bardiel incident, eventually culminating in ep 19 when Shinji stands up to his father, declares that he is the pilot of the Eva and chooses to face Zeruel. After this, Gendo is no longer very relevant to Shinji's character arc, and then we have ep 20.

[SoryuUberAlles]

Arguably the whole point of the Leliel encounter is to have the first 'Angel contact' episode. That's how Seele treats it...and and what the show was trying to do.

The first draft of the scenario was actually a dialog between Shinji and the Angel. However, we felt it would be too anti-climactic to have an Angel start talking like some pulp fiction alien (speaks while tapping his Adam's apple with his hand) "Your analog mode of thought is incorrect." So we came up with the idea actually used in this episode, which was to have Shinji converse with himself.

Which makes them seem really clever but the interior monologue seems more of a byproduct of the 'alternative' way they chose to do it, which is why it was more meaningfully done in the mini-instrumentality of eps.19+. And Angel contact thing itself is done better in eps. 22 and/or 23 imho.

I guess 'a three dimensional shadow of a two dimensional object' is a just a real cool idea (but does it make literally any sense?) It's also the first appearance of the helltrain, which is indispensable part of Evangelion's image.

Episode 16 is important because I think it's the first time Shinji comes to acknowledge his father as an enemy

One question is: how does SUDDENLY A WILD PSYCHOANALYST APPEARS help along the character arcs? Maybe if you watched the episodes through again it would make it feel tremendously dramatic. But, IMHO, these chapters is Sado makes both my favourite and least favourite changes but the whole is still some of the best in the manga so I don't feel like there's a burning Leliel-shaped hole left behind.

So in summary, it has a lot of cool stuff in it but also stuff that handled elsewhere - or perfectly well without it.

[cyharding]

It disappointed me that Sadamoto cut Shinji's encounter, which I felt was one of the most pivotal moments in his character arc.

Wouldn't his interactions with Kawrou, whcih were much more extensive in the manga than in the show, count even though it wasn't as grand as either Asuka's or Rei's?

[Director Black]

Wouldn't his interactions with Kawrou, whcih were much more extensive in the manga than in the show, count even though it wasn't as grand as either Asuka's or Rei's?

I get what you're saying, but that would fall in another category (Name TBD). It's with Leliel that Shinji begins to slip back and becomes more introspective, possibly even more, then his first appearance in the series.