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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:46 pm

So, there's this bit from EoE when Rei III floats up to Lilith and says "I'm home" and there's a screen of text that says "Welcome home." Now, I understand that this mirrors what Misato says to Shinji in ep. 2 when goes to her apartment for the first time and it also symbolizes Lilith returning to itself, but could it also be a literal communication as well? By this, I mean could it be Kaworu's/Adam's soul within Lilith? If this is the case, then that would explain where Kaworu went after his death, plus it acts as a kind of inversion of what we've seen with the Eva's thus far (sans Unit 01) where it's a Lilin soul inside of an Adam-based body. By contrast Kaworu just sort of hanging out inside of Lilith would be an Adam-based soul inside of a Lilin body. Just a thought...
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Postby Sachi » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:26 pm

Haven't you asked this before? I knew there were threads discussing this, but the most relevant one I found was by you. :tongue:
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Postby Reichu » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:15 pm

View Original PostSawItAtAge10 wrote:Kaworu just sort of hanging out inside of Lilith would be an Adam-based soul inside of a Lilin body

Eh? The crucified Lilith doesn't have a "Lilin body". Furthermore, Kaworu already is an inversion of an Eva.

"Adam-based soul" feels a bit like a misleading and unnecessary turn of phrase. How is Adam's own soul, which came from a FAR individual, "Adam-based"? Those of Angels 3~16 come from FAR as well. Seeds don't create souls; they just make sure they have bodies to inhabit.
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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:19 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:Haven't you asked this before? I knew there were threads discussing this, but the most relevant one I found was by you. :tongue:


I kind of forgot about that...oops...Although, now that I've looked at it, that conversation was somewhat of a dead end...
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Postby Reichu » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:38 pm

If you want to interpret "Welcome Home" as more than metaphorical, the simplest explanation IMO is that a piece of Lilith's soul remained inside her body, so there was part of the original consciousness left to "greet" Rei.
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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:40 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Eh? The crucified Lilith doesn't have a "Lilin body". Furthermore, Kaworu already is an inversion of an Eva.

"Adam-based soul" feels a bit like a misleading and unnecessary turn of phrase. How is Adam's own soul, which came from a FAR individual, "Adam-based"? Those of Angels 3~16 come from FAR as well. Seeds don't create souls; they just make sure they have bodies to inhabit.


By Lilin body, I mean "Lilith and kids." With Adam-based soul, I mean "soul that came from Adam or its kids." What I really meant here was the form of life, we know that Lilin and Adam souls have different properties (just as their bodies do) so...

Unit 00 is an Adam-body with a Lilin Soul (part of Lilith itself in this case via Rei 1)
Unit 02 is an Adam-body with a Lilin Soul (Kyoko)
Unit 03 is an Adam-body with a Lilin Soul (Toji's mom, presumably)

Seeing a pattern here?

Unit 01 is the exception with a Lilin Body (part of Lilith itself) with a Lilin soul (Yui)

Kaworu already, technically, being an inversion of an Eva, as Lilin body with and Adamic soul (In this case Adam itself) sets the precedent for this to happen (thank you for bringing that up actually)...Who's to say that upon Kaworu's death, Adam's soul, which was already accustomed to being in a Lilin body just didn't float on up to the next available vacancy, i.e. Lilith?

(This idea of Adam's soul just sort of floating around from body to body sort feeds into my own little pet theory about the "1 by 1" nature of the Angels' appearances...Assuming Kaworu's body was sort of just floating around in a vat until the day he arrived in Tokyo 3...)

I think this might not only solve the "Welcome home" mystery (if there's actually one to be had here) but it fixates Kaworu in a nice symbolic/parallel position.

I should backtrack and say that a lot of attention (here in these forums) is given to GNR, and very little is often said of GNK, or the concept having been misinterpreted from the get-go, as it it's even rarer to see the concept of GNR/K being discussed in any meaningful way.

Thus, Kaworu as a symbolic mother, paralleling both Yui and Misato, holds some merit within this context. Most especially Misato, who is the only other person in the NGE universe to say the words "Welcome Home" to another character (this ideas gains some ground, especially given the notions of Misato and Kaworu's familial relations). Going back to Yui, this idea about Kaworu being inside of Lilith explains his presence with her and the three Reis during Gendo's initiation. Of course, Kaworu and Gendo are also paralleled/connected via the Adam embryo (and now I'm giving myself a headache...)

Not sure what else to say other than there's no "substantial" evidence, but the ideas sort of make sense in context without detracting from what we actually do see and without having to jump through too many mental hurdles in order to make it work.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:18 pm

View Original PostSawItAtAge10 wrote:By Lilin body, I mean "Lilith and kids."

Lilin only refers to Homo sapiens, not intrinsically to their maker.

Who's to say that upon Kaworu's death, Adam's soul, which was already accustomed to being in a Lilin body just didn't float on up to the next available vacancy, i.e. Lilith?

I'm aware of nothing that suggests this is even possible.

- Kaworu only speaks of being able to enter Evas, and this is because they came from Adam's flesh. Why would his soul have any providence over Lilith's body?

- The souls of the dead don't do anything in NGE unless they are manipulated by an outside force. This includes Adam's after 2I: It did not return to the embryo, but just sat around until Seele recovered it and put it into Kaworu.

I have more to say, later.
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Postby Director Black » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:56 pm

Rei and Shinji had similar character arcs. Shinji stepping in Misato's apartment was him feeling that after being sent to live with his teacher, he finally feels that someone cares about him.

In the same extent, Rei has never felt at peace with her entire life. She was always in the care of Gendo, setting her up to fulfill his own selfish desires. Because she rejects him, she is living her own life. She is finally where she needs to be, and what she wants to do is help the person [Shinji] who's the only one who's shown her actual kindness. Home is where the heart is after all.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:06 pm

View Original PostSawItAtAge10#847695 wrote:(This idea of Adam's soul just sort of floating around from body to body sort feeds into my own little pet theory about the "1 by 1" nature of the Angels' appearances...Assuming Kaworu's body was sort of just floating around in a vat until the day he arrived in Tokyo 3...)

If you're implying that Adam's soul inhabited the Angels sequentially and finally ended up in Kaworu somehow... I can think of numerous things that don't jibe with this, but I'll let you explain yourself first.

Floating around in a vat for fifteen years also seems incompatible with Kaworu being so acutely aware of what he is, knowing so much about Seele and Nerv, having the ability to socialize and philosophize, and, most importantly, liking Beethoven.

a lot [sic] of attention (here in these forums) is given to GNR, and very little is often said of GNK, or the concept having been misinterpreted from the get-go, as it it's even rarer to see the concept of GNR/K being discussed in any meaningful way. (...) Thus, Kaworu as a symbolic mother, paralleling both Yui and Misato, holds some merit within this context. (snip)

What's been misinterpreted, specifically?

I do agree that more analysis of the GNK scene is needed, since there's so much going on there that is almost never addressed. I've had a bunch of stuff on the backburner for years (first time I tried mentioning it, a whole forum or two ago, I wasn't taken seriously), but I'm not sure when I'll be able to get back to it. I will say that Kaworu is compared to no fewer than three (other) mother(-figures) during GNK's incredibly brief appearance, which is a pretty amazing demonstration of NGE's sheer density at times.
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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:39 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:What's been misinterpreted, specifically?


All I was going to say is that I have (had) a theory that maybe each Angel wasn't born/didn't emerge until Adam's soul didn't "float off somewhere" into each Angel in a birth/death/reincarnation succession, but something as complex as Beethoven actually debunks this (I'm truly am being the utmost sincere in saying this) in the deepest most humanistic way.

As far as "misinterpretation" goes, I think it's easy to fall I into the goddess/feministic power nature of GNR without seeing the masculine aspects of GNK or even the androgynous aspects of GNR/K.

In all honesty, I've made the mistake in the past of thinkng GNR/K was new kind of FAR. But, upon realizing the FAR might've been actually closer to ordinary people with advanced technology, I've come to think of GNR/K as something else entirely (something we haven't seen previously in NGE).

So, based on this, what do you think is the best way to categorize GNR/K (a term that I'll be using to refer to the gestalt being from here on in)?

Any feedback would most appreciated ^_^
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Postby Reichu » Sun Oct 16, 2016 4:01 am

View Original PostSawItAtAge10 wrote:All I was going to say is that I have (had) a theory that maybe each Angel wasn't born/didn't emerge until Adam's soul didn't "float off somewhere" into each Angel in a birth/death/reincarnation succession, but something as complex as Beethoven actually debunks this (I'm truly am being the utmost sincere in saying this) in the deepest most humanistic way.

There's also the fact that Adam opened her Gates of Guf at Second Impact -- in other words, released souls from her Chamber of Guf -- which presumably triggered a 15-year incubation period.

As far as "misinterpretation" goes, I think it's easy to fall I into the goddess/feministic power nature of GNR without seeing the masculine aspects of GNK or even the androgynous aspects of GNR/K.

At that moment, Anno is definitely winking to the idea of Adam ha Rishon, i.e. Adam the First Human as an androgynous "beast with two backs". Further massage might yield something meaningful in the context of this kind of stuff, but beyond that I'm skeptical -- just how meaningfully can Kaworu represent the masculine half of an androgyne when Kaworu himself is so androgynous (tilting toward the feminine) it hurts?

Disclaimer: I will proceed to present my own controversial reading, which you may take or leave as you please.

The Seeds are female in every way that matters. (The Spears are their "male" counterparts, of course.) Many get hung up Adam's name and forcible incarnation as the male Kaworu, which is IMHO a mistake: Kaworu acknowledges Adam as a "mother", and Adam slots quite naturally into NGE's overarching psychosexual/cosmological mother-goddess thematic preoccupation. Lilith, Adam, the Evas: all used to identify the Maternal with Creation on a most primordial level, all embodying the universal desire to return to the womb and one's origins.

This is not to dismiss the masculine aspect that Adam gains as Kaworu, but, rather, to put it in its proper perspective with the preexisting feminine element. There are a lot of ways that this can be looked at, but I'll just offer a few points here:

- It's interesting to compare Rei and Kaworu: Rei, though physically female, has a very neutral personality (neither feminine nor masculine), while Kaworu, though physically male, is very effeminate.
- In the very scene where Kaworu manifests as the supposedly "masculine" aspect of Lilith-Adam, he is (via both visual and dialogue cues) compared to Kyoko, Yui, and Misato. (The entire scene parallels the one where Asuka reunites with Kyoko, down to echoed dialogue, gestures, and facial expressions. The other two are quite a bit more subtle, but maybe you can figure them out... :devil: )
- The updated angel statue design, introduced in Death and episode 24', features a rather prominent set of breasts (which in NGE's more serious contexts represent "the lost paradise embodied by the Mother"). We're also meant to identify this statue quite intimately with Kaworu: after he's killed in Death, we get a closeup of the statue's neck stub visibly bleeding.

Kaworu's masculine aspect has the greatest significance, IMO, with regard to his relationship with Shinji, while I'd be less certain of its significance to Kaworu himself.

- Shinji is generally terrified of females at that point in the show, and Kaworu being a boy, i.e. not the Other (or so Shinji thinks!), is certainly part of what enables Shinji to open up so quickly.
- Kaworu's mannerisms and even looks are reminiscent of Kaji, a positive father-figure whose death has left a gap in Shinji's life that Kaworu readily slips into.
- Shinji associates Kaworu's "betrayal" (being an Angel and not telling him) with the sort of emotional betrayal(s) his father put him through. (I'm not sure I totally understand this one. Does Shinji, even?)

The cross-references made during the GNK scene imply, to me, that Shinji unconsciously recognizes Kaworu's maternal aspect, and, since this is Shinji we're talking about, I'd have a hard time believing this wasn't one of the biggest reasons he was drawn to the guy.

One idea I have which I've been hesitant to share is that Adam was put into a male body by Seele quite purposefully, with the intent of making Adam more controllable. The idea that males are more distanced from the human reproductive process is not really a new one, and NGE seems to fully embrace this by identifying Creation first and foremost with the Mother archetype. A Seed's purpose is to be a Mother on the grandest scale; forcibly placed within a male body, the Seed has been severed from that purpose on a rather visceral level. Maternal instincts are still possible, of course, but some amount of numbing seems inevitable. Surely enough, Kaworu is unable to break away from the fate Seele planned for him. He abandons Adam's mission and the souls of her children to whatever fate, and willingly surrenders his life so that the Lilin imposters can have "the future" (translation: whatever Seele is planning for them whether they want it or not).

Lilith, on the other hand, is not made to suffer through a sex change when she becomes Rei. Her ATF overpowers Kaworu's in Terminal Dogma, which results in Eva-02's defeat (Kaworu's hold over her would have been broken) and Kaworu turning in the towel. Rei goes on to rebel against Gendo (a figure of patriarchal control not unlike Seele) and reclaim her heritage on her own terms. While letting Kaworu take the reigns for one particular moment, Rei is the dominant force in everything prior and everything to follows, up until Lilith's death.
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Postby Sykes III » Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:23 pm

I don't know about the "literal" interpretation of the text screen, whether it means there's some part of Lillith's soul in Lillith that can respond to Rei, but on a cinematic level I always adored that title card, because it lets Lillith communicate without having to figure out how to show a "godlike" being speaking, which is something that might break the magic and mystique of the Angels/FAR/Seeds etc, in the same way that the Angels that manifest in the pilot's minds never have their own voices -- it's cheesy. And showing that communication as an intertitle, something literally removed from the "reality" of the movie (the characters can't see it after all) really gets across how "beyond" human understanding Lillith is (if you wanna get Lovecraftian about it) in a very effective and spooky way.


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