Did You Notice?

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SawItAtAge10
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Did You Notice?

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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:35 am

The angel nomenclature in NGE is misleading in that it includes the Progenitor Seeds and Kaworu. However the actual Angels, as in the children of Adam are Sachiel to Armisael. That's "3" - "16." So this means that Adam only had 14 offspring.

What's interesting is that 14 "offspring" are seen exactly one time elsewhere in NGE's world...When Ritsuko empties the Reiquarium in ep. 23 her little handheld device reads "Rei 4 - 14."

Not what, if anything, this means. I just thought it was an interesting parallel/observation.
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Re: Did You Notice?

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Postby Sachi » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:38 am

Yes, this is something that's bugged me for a long time. Adam and Lilith aren't Angels, dammit. They should be in a separate category titled "Seeds of Life".

In canon, however, the confusion makes sense. Given the nature the coverup and the mystery surrounding the origins of the Angels all the way up until EoE, it makes sense to assume that they were getting it wrong and only the people in "the know" knew any better (ie, Gendo, Fuyu, Seele).

I'm not sure about the relation to the Reiquarium though.
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Re: Did You Notice?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:52 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:Adam and Lilith aren't Angels, dammit. They should be in a separate category titled "Seeds of Life".

Why are you under the impression that Seeds of Life can't possibly be Angels? This is a situation similar to the use of "human", which has one definition where it's equal to "Lilin", and another definition where its scope is MUCH broader. Angel, similarly, is used to mean "Adam's Children" most of the time, but it also has another meaning that can be puzzled out. Were you around for the previous discussions about this, and just don't agree with the conclusions, or...?
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Re: Did You Notice?

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Postby Sachi » Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:55 am

My personal classification is that the children of Adam are the true "Angels". The children of Lilith are "Lilin". And the progenitors are "Seeds of Life". Seems the neatest way to organize them, IMO.
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Re: Did You Notice?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:15 am

Well, yeah, but then you have to totally handwave the fact that Adam's Children aren't the only things classified as "Angels". Why handwave it if doing so isn't necessary? I mean, are you going to make an argument that the Lilin are the "only true humans", and so every time NGE refers to something else as "human" we should just ignore it? Why would the term "Angel" be any different?

My preferred solution:

- The First Ancestral Race are both the first humans and "God".
- All subsequent humans are their Angels / Apostles.
-- Both terms mean "messengers". (Significance of the dichotomy/equivalence? The Biblical apostles were all human, who served the God on Earth [Jesus], as the angels served the God in Heaven. All "Angels" in NGE turn out to be human beings.)
- What's the message? Humanity.
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Re: Did You Notice?

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Postby Sachi » Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:41 am

My explanation for the Angel classification is related to the coverups Nerv and Seele are infamous for. They lied about the true nature of Second Impact and they lied about the true nature of the Evangelions, the latter even being to their own staff; who's to say they wouldn't also lie about the nature of the Angels in order to keep the truth about Adam and Lilith obscured? They are rather important pieces of the puzzle, enough so that each Seele and Gendo chose to use them as important parts of their plans. It could also very well be that Adam and Lilith were dubbed Angels before anybody knew the difference between them and the rest of the lot (though, I suppose if they were named first, it's the Children of Adam that were misnamed. Whatever, majority rules. :P )
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Re: Did You Notice?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:53 am

Lilith is still called "the Second Angel" in NTE, wherein the extensive cover-ups aren't really a thing. None of the beating around the bush: we're told what Lilith is as soon as she's revealed. (Yes, I know NGE=/=NTE, but sometimes the contrasts can be illustrative.)

Your take, further, requires an end-game revelation, that we are a collective Angel called the Lilin, to be dismissed as misinformation. Nor do you attempt to explain why the name(s) Angels/Apostles (recall that it's both) was used in the first place. The more things explained and fewer waved aside, the better.
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Re: Did You Notice?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:28 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:My personal classification is that the children of Adam are the true "Angels". The children of Lilith are "Lilin". And the progenitors are "Seeds of Life". Seems the neatest way to organize them, IMO.

But humans are called the "18th Angel," and they're descendants of Lilith. The series even goes on about how they were meant to be with Adams descendants, but ultimately can't.

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Re: Did You Notice?

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:15 am

Sorry to have to poke a hole in this, but that must've been the most her handheld could have displayed with the font size being what it was. Let's look at this picture, which isn't even a full 360 view of the dummy plug plant:

Image

Not including stray limbs, but actual torsos or heads (in the case of the whole body not being present in the picture), for the sake of this argument, I count at least 29 different clones of Rei in the Reiquarium. It's interesting, but just a coincidence. It's much more likely that she could've scrolled down and seen many more Rei-##'s on that list, had she chosen to do so (or at least that the display wouldn't go above 14).

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Re: Did You Notice?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:24 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:But humans are called the "18th Angel," and they're descendants of Lilith. The series even goes on about how they were meant to be with Adams descendants, but ultimately can't.

Not sure what you're referring to here. Such a claim is never made in the series.

SawItAtAge10 wrote:What's interesting is that 14 "offspring" are seen exactly one time elsewhere in NGE's world...

Evas 00 thru 04 plus the nine completed harpies is fourteen total.

The count for Adam's Children could technically be fifteen, however, if Israfel is twins, something I find quite reasonable.
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Re: Did You Notice?

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:44 am

But Eva-01 is not part of the same offspring group as the others, so counting it in seems to reduce the relevance of the figure.
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Re: Did You Notice?

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:56 am

And weren't there supposed to be 12 harpies instead of 9? That brings the total to 17 each for the Angels and the Evas, 16 if you discount Lilith and Unit 01 who are not of Adam's lineage.

It's also interesting that Unit 01, the only Eva derived from the Second Angel, is the second successful Evangelion created.
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Re: Did You Notice?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:50 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:But Eva-01 is not part of the same offspring group as the others

Well, I guess that all depends on whether Eva-01 is actually a Lilith clone, or an Adam clone that was experimentally created using Lilith's body. The Japanese term used to describe Eva-01's relationship to Lilith, bunshin, is non-specific enough that it could go either way. I reason that the option one takes ultimately doesn't make any difference to the only thing that actually matters -- Eva-01's usability as a Lilith proxy during 3I -- so I honestly prefer the "Adam" option, since it's the one that DOESN'T involve the bash-you-over-the-head-from-start-to-finish associations between Eva-01 and Adam not being abruptly rendered moot as of EoE.

BlueBasilisk wrote:And weren't there supposed to be 12 harpies instead of 9?

Yeah, but why count the ones that were never finished? It'd be like including miscarriages when someone asks you how many children you have. I mean, you COULD, but... :uhh:
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Re: Did You Notice?

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:18 pm

I just added them because Seele had intended for there to be 17 for some reason. No idea why when they're able to get by just fine with 10. :shrug:
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