First time viewer of rebuild--thoughts/reactions

[CommanderFish]

Hi.
I'm not entirely sure if this is an appropriate thread to make or not, but as I couldn't find any general "Evangelion 2.0 reaction" thread or something of that sort (that aren't locked, at least), I thought this would be the best plan of action. I have no idea how much traction, if any, this thread will get.

Basically, I just watched Evangelion: 2.0 You Can (Not) Advance. By which I mean, I literally just watched it earlier today. Don't know why it took me this long (I finished the original series around this time last year), but hey, at least I finally got around to it. Please note that I have NOT yet watched 3.0, but I plan to post my reactions to that in this thread as well.

I found it unnecessary to write about 1.0 at all (which I watched a few weeks ago--I know, I watch media very slowly), as it was basically episodes 1-6 re-animated, in a condensed form, adding/subtracting various minor plot points and just a few long-term larger ones (i.e. everyone knows about Lilith). I did particularly enjoy all the extra detail that was put into the planning and execution of Operation Yashima, though. That was cool.

2.0 was a different beast, however. There were extremely noticeable changes to the characters, the basic plot (timeline of angels), the setting, and an overall shift in the fundamental themes that lay at the heart of the original show, I think. To start off--I definitely did not dislike this movie. It's a good movie, all things considered. The animation was obviously excellent, and I sort of got used to the CGI (except in some places, like when it was used for average civilians/people walking around. That felt weird and unnecessary. The CGI, and the fact that there were so many civilians in the first place; the fact that Tokyo-3 was an extremely bustling city. Like, after at least two angel attacks wouldn't the people start to realize that it just may be a good idea to get the hell out of there?). All that considered, I definitely don't like the rebuild series nearly as much as I did the original series thus far.

That's mainly because, the thing I liked the most about the original series was the depth to which all the main characters were explored. So far in rebuild, that just hasn't happened. I mean, the characters are all there--their most basic character traits are still present and undeniable--but there's just something missing in all of them. They don't feel as much like real people as they did in the original series. In NGE, it felt as if every scene that a particular character appears in was a chance to gain a deeper insight into that character (obviously that's not quite true, but I do feel as if the writer's tried their best to do this). They had deep-seeded fears, anxieties, desires--a complex web of issues within each one of them--and these problems were not just magically overcame. They had to develop in realistic and subtle ways; linear development was avoided at every turn, it seemed. The writing of the character's did not get a free pass, in other words. In 2.0, I feel it did. The characters were not as fleshed out to begin with, the scenes they were in didn't seem to take full advantage of the full opportunity to build their characters, and (somewhat as a result of these factors), their character development came across as a bit lazy to me. And, seeing how they develop in quite different ways than their TV counterparts, I feel that it is fair enough that these characters should not get that "free pass" in character development just because the TV series exists.

Maybe I'm overreacting, and simply don't see something in the characters that's hiding in plain sight. Maybe it's just the direction these characters are going and how unfamiliar it is for me: Shinji is standing up for himself in a major way; Rei is making efforts to bring people together, preparing food and stuff, and standing up for herself too (like how she blocked that damn slap); and Asuka is making an effort to connect to people for some reason (talking to Misato on the elevator ride, cooking food for Shinji (side note: why is everybody cooking fucking food in this movie?)). But, I'm still thinking I would of been fine with how they all developed if it was just... done better. The exception is Misato and Ritsuko, as--now that I'm thinking back--really didn't even get their basic characters established to begin with, especially Ritsuko (her mom's not even there so far). I mean, at least the three pilots have the basics of their internal conflicts addressed, though--shit--actually, I don't know if I can say that for Asuka. She just has that scene with the doll and a few lines of dialogue, and that awful elevator scene (sorry but that just left a bad taste in my mouth), but does that really do her character the least bit of justice? I mean, comparing all that to Asuka's mind-rape scene, that little appearance of the doll is actually quite the disservice in a way... ahhh, I don't know right now. Just rambling, sorry. I should watch 3.0 before I say anything for good.

Regardless, the way I'd like to treat 2.0 right now is as a slightly-more-cerebral action movie. Because--don't get me wrong--I'm fine with taking a different approach to my viewing of the movies than with my viewing of the show. In all likelihood, the two products are trying to achieve completely different things. I just need to decide how to approach these movies, so I can know how to judge them. Since there are so many contexts that I can view this movie around and I haven't decided which one I favor yet... I'm just going to say that it was an alright movie and leave it at that for now.

I'm very interested to see what's in store for 3.0 either way. And as a side note, I wonder how similar/different my reaction is here than those initial reactions back in 2009? I assume someone out there thought along the same lines that I did here but... I'm interested in knowing regardless. The perception of a film's quality can be very dependent on the time that the viewer watches it in, I think.

P.S. Just wanted to add, one thing that was much better in the rebuild series so far is the music. Holy shit, did Shiro Sagisu step it up for the battle songs in these films. Epic chanting choirs and shit--excellent stuff.

[pwhodges]

seeing how they develop in quite different ways than their TV counterparts,
[...]
does that really do her character the least bit of justice?
[...]
In all likelihood, the two products are trying to achieve completely different things.

This is the thing - we don't yet know what the destination of this set of films is. However, it is clear that it is telling a different story from the series, and that even the characters are different. The more that people compare with the series, the more puzzled or confused they get; but you see, things are "missing" or "different" because (even in 1.0) they are not meant to be the same anyway.

I just need to decide how to approach these movies, so I can know how to judge them.

As themselves, in isolation. When the new story is finished there will also be fun to be had in comparing and contrasting them with the series, I'm sure, but at present this is hard because we don't yet have the key to the films (which is why the last one is so eagerly awaited - for many people little makes sense without it). But of course this comparison already does go on!

I'm very interested to see what's in store for 3.0 either way.

Let's just say that everything said above applies in spades!

And as a side note, I wonder how similar/different my reaction is here than those initial reactions back in 2009?

I wasn't here; but the locked threads can still be read, of course.

P.S. Just wanted to add, one thing that was much better in the rebuild series so far is the music. Holy shit, did Shiro Sagisu step it up for the battle songs in these films. Epic chanting choirs and shit--excellent stuff.

Sagisu is up at the top along with Yoko Kanno.

[Ray]

You're in for a rude awakening when you watch 3.0. We all were.

[CommanderFish]

This is the thing - we don't yet know what the destination of this set of films is. However, it is clear that it is telling a different story from the series, and that even the characters are different. The more that people compare with the series, the more puzzled or confused they get; but you see, things are "missing" or "different" because (even in 1.0) they are not meant to be the same anyway.

Yeah, I'm really trying to come to terms with this. It's just difficult, because all these characters that I've become so attached to are just... shallower in the rebuild series so far. Again, it still is early for me to tell even this, but...

When the new story is finished there will also be fun to be had in comparing and contrasting them with the series, I'm sure, but at present this is hard because we don't yet have the key to the films (which is why the last one is so eagerly awaited - for many people little makes sense without it).

This is what is so troubling to me. Even though I don't have to eagerly wait to watch 3.0 like so many other fans did, if this is true, then I'll still have to eagerly wait for Final to come out in order to see what direction this series goes anyways. But, I guess that would just put me exactly where everyone else is... so.... maybe it won't be too bad.

Sagisu is up at the top along with Yoko Kanno.

Yoko Kanno is incredibly proficient at composing music belonging to a wide variety of genres; she's like a musical intellectual. Sagisu has made some of the most (if not the most) epic music I've ever heard. I truly love them both.

You're in for a rude awakening when you watch 3.0. We all were.

Uh oh.
To be honest, I haven't heard much about 3.0 except for that it heavily diverges from the original series. I really don't know what the fan reception of the film is--I've kept myself pretty in the dark so far. But, is it bad that--for some reason--this makes me more excited to watch it? I mean, if it plays with my expectations in a good way (like the original series/EoE), then... that could be a good thing. Right?
Oh, I am dying in anticipation here. Can't watch it for at least two more days, but... shit. I gotta see this movie.

[pwhodges]

Note that many people have found that 3.0 makes more sense after a repeat viewing. Also that the differences (if you continue to look at them that way) in 1.0 and 2.0 made more sense when reviewed after seeing 3.0 - the films really are working as a set. For those who know it well and are invested in its ideas there does seem to be a process of freeing oneself from expectations based on the series, which is clearly harder for some than others.

[CommanderFish]

For those who know it well and are invested in its ideas there does seem to be a process of freeing oneself from expectations based on the series, which is clearly harder for some than others.

I think I'll get there. The changes are just... a lot to get used to. I'm definitely excited in analyzing the rebuilds and whatnot though, to see what they're really trying to accomplish.
I'm also starting to really see the validity to the sequel theory (especially considering Kaworu's last line in 2.0), but I'm gonna wait until I see 3.0 to truly dive into that.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Are the characters shallower in NTE? Or are they simply defined less by the other characters around them?

(AKA, Asuka doesn't have a Kaji infatuation in NTE like she did in NGE. In this instance, her character is defined by another character in NGE, and not by herself as an individual. Does a lack of infatuation equal a shallower character, or simply prove that Asuka can stand on her own as a character better than before?)

[Reichu]

One could argue that Shinji is defined more by Rei and Gendo than ever before...

[CommanderFish]

Asuka doesn't have a Kaji infatuation in NTE like she did in NGE. In this instance, her character is defined by another character in NGE, and not by herself as an individual. Does a lack of infatuation equal a shallower character, or simply prove that Asuka can stand on her own as a character better than before?

Asuka is also defined by Shinji, Misato, and Rei in NGE; I wouldn't say Kaji is necessarily the most important if that's what you're trying to say. My problem is that so far, Asuka is basically the same character in NTE as she was in NGE, but her problems are far less explored. All that removing her Kaji infatuation does is make her appear less desperate to be an adult, I think. I'm not gonna say much else, because I haven't seen 3.0 and Final isn't even out yet, but I don't see any way that Asuka could not be shallower in NTE so far. Which I'm fine with, as long as the big picture of NTE is different from NGE's in a way that fits that component.

One could argue that Shinji is defined more by Rei and Gendo than ever before...

I don't have much of a problem with NTE Shinji thus far, (his final action in 2.0 was... strange, to be honest; but I would say that Rei's character arc and the plot itself, [like how Zeruel absorbed Rei, woah man], are significant contributing elements to what happened there); it's more Rei, Asuka, Misato, and Ritsuko that I'm a bit underwhelmed by from a character perspective.
Also--Shinji more defined by than Rei and Gendo than ever before? Hrm, maybe because Rei is just more outward in NTE? She opens up to Shinji and Gendo a bit more, which causes Shinji to do his thing at the end of 2.0... yeah, I guess I could see that perspective.

[BlueBasilisk]

Asuka's still brash, arrogant and kind of an asshole, but once you start digging in, this Asuka has some big differences from the NGE Asuka. Most importantly: Shikinami does not seem to hate herself and she's more in sync and open with her feelings. She says she doesn't like being around other people, but when she starts to feel restless and lonely in Tokyo-3, she confronts the issue by dropping in on Shinji and opening to him a little, and then to Misato. When she suspects Rei likes Shinji, she confronts Rei about it directly instead of stewing in her own anger.

She's not desperate to be perceived as an adult and it doesn't seem like she seeks validation from others by piloting an Eva. She does it for herself because she wants to, because she's good at it, and she feels like that's the place where she belongs. When Unit 02 is taken from her and she's told she's replaceable it hurts her, but she's not completely crushed by it. I wouldn't say she's more shallow for lacking those things. They're just approaching the character from a different angle and trying new things with her. In 2.0 it's easier to see the things she doesn't have compared to Soryu rather than the things she has.

Shinji is more defined by Rei and Gendo this time around because Gendo is taking an active role in pushing the two of them together as part of the grand scenario. Gendo forces that connection by his machinations in 1.0 and 2.0.

It's hard to go too in-depth with character analysis without spoilers!

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

NTE doesn't go as "in depth" into Asuka's problems as NGE did because Shikinami probably isn't as problematic as Soryu was. Plain and simple. A story can't go in depth into problems that characters don't have to begin with.

[BlueBasilisk]

^Yes, that.

I dunno if the characters are less defined by those around them as much as they are defined by different characters in different ways. Old relationships dropped, existing ones changed and new ones formed. Ritsuko may have been hit the hardest out of the major characters.

[CommanderFish]

...this Asuka has some big differences from the NGE Asuka. Most importantly: Shikinami does not seem to hate herself and she's more in sync and open with her feelings.
[...]
She's not desperate to be perceived as an adult and it doesn't seem like she seeks validation from others by piloting an Eva. She does it for herself because she wants to, because she's good at it, and she feels like that's the place where she belongs...They're just approaching the character from a different angle and trying new things with her. In 2.0 it's easier to see the things she doesn't have compared to Soryu rather than the things she has.

NTE doesn't go as "in depth" into Asuka's problems as NGE did because Shikinami probably isn't as problematic as Soryu was. Plain and simple. A story can't go in depth into problems that characters don't have to begin with.

Okay, I'm on board with this line of reasoning. I guess I didn't actually think about how many traits of Soryu's are held in common with Shikinami; I just sort of assumed they were there. They never go into her background (or haven't yet) like they did in NGE, and I never really took that into account. I think we're still left with a less interesting character, but my mind's more at ease now that you brought this stuff up. She does have a different name after all.

It's hard to go too in-depth with character analysis without spoilers!

Oh, I understand. I'm guessing it may be hard to go in-depth even with spoilers in this case.

[The Cruel]

Okay, I'm on board with this line of reasoning. I guess I didn't actually think about how many traits of Soryu's are held in common with Shikinami; I just sort of assumed they were there. They never go into her background (or haven't yet) like they did in NGE, and I never really took that into account. I think we're still left with a less interesting character, but my mind's more at ease now that you brought this stuff up. She does have a different name after all.


Oh, I understand. I'm guessing it may be hard to go in-depth even with spoilers in this case.

No matter if she has a different surname or had a different childhood compaired to her role in NGE, Asuka is still essentially herself in NTE. Just for the sake of the plot, she got new traits and rudiments in relation to her interactions with other characters and how the plot progresses.

Still I don't think, she could had a less tragic past, because something made her into the person who she is, something made her pilot Eva and because of what happened to her since the incident in Matsushiro, during the Timeskip and what happened in 3.0, the biggest Question would be, what will she become?

Only time 'll tell and until then we can just wait until 3.0+1.0 finally comes out. I expect nothing from the last film, the only thing I expect from it is, that it'll be the end and that it 'll have a ending this story deserves. I just want to witness it and get it over with.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

One of the voice actresses for NTE (Yuko Miyamura?) on an interview after the release of 2.0 alluded to the idea that there's a reason why Asuka, Rei, and Mari all have "Nami" in their surnames. That reasoning could've anything from thematic to the story to dealing with the origins of the characters, but either way when it comes to Shikinami's backstory you're probably looking at a whole different bag of cats.

[CommanderFish]

I just watched 3.0...
I, um... I just watched 3.0... and I, um...
I think I'm going to have to sleep on it.

[Ray]

I just watched 3.0...
I, um... I just watched 3.0... and I, um...
I think I'm going to have to sleep on it.

Did it emotionally destroy you like it did me?

[Sachi]

Did it make you grin uncontrollably like it did me?

Seriously. I was like a giddy schoolgirl looking at the ruins of Nerv and the shot of the landscape with the moon. And then Beethoven started... So much beauty and wonder, and so little words needed to justify it. My mind goes wild connecting the pieces together and making all the meta-links to EoE. The movie seriously gets better upon every viewing.

[BlueBasilisk]

I'll forever love 3.0 for having the gonads to do something completely different. It's what I'd wanted since the beginning of the Rebuild project.

Like EoE before it, 3.0 is a lot to take in on a first viewing. Or a second. It's less bizarre and makes more sense each time you watch it, though! And like others have said, if you go back and rewatch the other movies with this one in mind, you can really notice the ways they were setting up 3.0.

[CommanderFish]

Okay, so first of all: I still haven't quite decided what I think about 3.0. There are so many different aspects to it, all of which are accompanied by some degree of confusion. So, I guess I should start with what I did like.

I loved the visual aesthetic--by far my favorite part of the film. The ruins of NERV and Tokyo-3 are absolutely beautiful in an apocalyptic, lonely, hopeless way. I actually don't even have the words to properly describe all the imagery in the film (that includes Terminal Dogma/Lilith and all the skulls, Fourth Impact--everything) right now, though I think I could muster them up in time. The visuals are still not to the level of EoE in terms of how much they struck me (EoE I think I can never put into words), but it was still pretty amazing-looking.

I also really liked the way they handled the Shinji/Kaworu relationship. It basically followed the same arc as their relationship did in episode 24 except now extended, allowing lots of details to be added in (many for the sake of the plot, admittedly), and as a result their relationship was a lot more fleshed out. Also, Kaworu's extended appearance allows me to actually classify him as a character this time around. Shinji, too, is developing along nicely for this altered plot (and for his more subtly altered character), though I'm a little frustrated that Shinji didn't just ask what the fuck happened during the 14-year time-skip while he was on the Wunder and had the chance to. I really saw it as Shinji just being inexplicably stupid more than anything else; and when the plot gets affected by characters just being randomly stupid: that's lazy writing in my eyes. Oh well, that's more of a minor gripe anyways. Shinji is the major focus of NTE, even perhaps more than he was in NGE; and in that regard, I like all his inner conflict in this movie, his introspection, his character in general; tis' all (mostly) well and good. Well... maybe not... I don't know actually--haven't quite decided. I definitely like it in theory, but... argh, I gotta think more about this.

Either way, I'm more disappointed/confused/underwhelmed with some of the other characters. Asuka, for example. Oh, Asuka. I'm sorry to say, but she is just not interesting anymore, at least to me. The only way that I've seen her change from 2.0 to 3.0 is her becoming tougher/more battle-hardened. She doesn't develop at all in this film really. She acts like Asuka, speaks like Asuka, does things Asuka would do, but I don't see much more to her than that. Again, maybe I'm missing something--Final stills needs to come out, yeah--but jeez, is she disappointing in this movie. Misato...well at least she changed in a more significant way than Asuka. She became far more cold and distant, much more like Gendo, and since her character really hadn't been developed that far in 1.0 and 2.0 (at least, any farther than we already know), I think this is actually an okay direction for her. Plus, the not-killing-Shinji scene showed that the old Misato is still in there somewhere, which paves the way for potential character development. She's still not that interesting, but at least she's got more potential than Asuka. Rei has potential too, although there isn't much about her character right now that we haven't already seen up to this point (i.e. she is discovering her humanity, again). She sort of balanced out in a way, though--she was pretty outward and sociable in 2.0 (for Rei, at least), and now she is almost literally a doll in 3.0. Reflects the change in tone between the two films pretty well, I think.

And on that note, I actually really like the idea of the 14-year time-skip and Shinji being the medium in which the viewer gets accustomed to it. But that's not coming from a plot perspective necessarily; it's more coming from an atmosphere perspective. Shinji wakes up to a completely changed world; there is so much he doesn't know (and as a result--the viewer doesn't know), so many forces out of his control, so many unknown forces in his control, and as a result everything just becomes so alien. It brings back a similar atmosphere to that which was present in NGE and especially EoE--that omnipotent, hovering, ambiguous, lonely, fear-inducing, overwhelming... feeling, that I loved so much in the original series. I love that about 3.0 too (not as much, but I do). At the same time, however, the time-skip is rather troubling.

WAY more questions than answers have spawned as a result of this movie. Unlike EoE though, lots of these questions are more along the lines of "what is even going on in the fundamental plot of this series", while EoE (perhaps similar to this during the first viewing, but after you picked up on things...) posed questions more like "what am I seeing right now/what do these visuals mean in context to the established plot?". And I'd be okay with this if it weren't for the sheer number of significant plot elements that have yet to be explained. This movie is depending so much on Final to both explain all of these things (which it doesn't have to do with exposition, mind you), and serve as a fitting conclusion to this series, which I literally don't see how it can do. I'm assuming I don't have to name what I'm talking about here, but I'll clarify just in case: what's the deal with....Evangelion Mk.4 (how is that even classified as an Eva by the way?), Willie, NERV in ruins, NERV and Tokyo-3 covered in blood, the teeth and the eye in Tokyo-3, the crosses dotting the landscape, the moon (white), the moon (black), SEELE, Eva Mk. 9 (Vessel of the Adams), Eva Unit-13, Failures of Infinity, Lilith, Lilith's Rei-head, the skulls in Terminal Dogma, Evangelion Mk.6/the twelfth angel, Spear of Longinus/Spear of Cassius, Kaworu's "cast down" to the 13th angel, and Fourth Impact (just to name a few)? I'm not that frustrated with not knowing stuff in this movie--I'm fine with that (again, I actually like it in a way). I'm just very concerned about the future of these questions being answered.

And speaking of questions, I have one more: what's the big deal about Mari? I mean, I'm asking both why people hate her and why people love her. She's barely consequential to the plot, only really serving as a side character, maintains no important relationships to any of the existing characters; she's just sort of... there. She has a personality, but... it's not explored whatsoever; we don't get to see why she is the way she is, she just is. It's so skin deep. She's basically just a really shallow character who has very minimal affect on the plot. I'd understand why one would be indifferent to her--I am--but she's obviously just there for entertainment value. Why do people hate her when she's so insignificant, and why do people love her when she's so hollow?

As a final comment--I think I'm on the sequel theory train right now. Not only do I really want this to be the case (okay this is probably the main reason tbh), but I see tons of evidence for it in all three films so far, (strangely, 1.0 and 2.0 are more telling to me in a few ways). But I must do more research on the topic, so I will stop right there.

Anyways, those are most of my thoughts so far. I may easily have more to say in the future, but this was all I could think of at the moment. I hope it wasn't tl;dr. I'd also like to add that the music in this movie continued the pattern that this series has followed thus far (a.k.a. it was epic as all hell). That is all.

Edit: I also loved how Gendo was the exact same in this movie as he has always been. Still laying out your plans in the vaguest of terms possible; you never change, do you, Gendo?