If the MAGI are so smart, why is NERV so dumb?

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If the MAGI are so smart, why is NERV so dumb?

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Postby Kiel » Thu Jul 22, 2004 8:13 am

Alright, consider the following...

The three MAGI super-computers run pretty much all of Tokyo-3. Similar MAGI systems run other UN controlled counries as well.

These computers act as an imposing government, making all the major, city/country/defense based decisions not made by NERV or the Japanese government (or SEELE, for that matter).

My question is why are they so STUPID!!!!!! :shock:

okay, maybe they're not that stupid :? .

All of the MAGI's defense related stratagies seem to have very small chances of success, varying from an 11% to a 0.000001% chance. While these all succeded, some of them were due to berserk Evas or pilot bravado (or lack of).

Some of Eva's best stratagies were thought up by good ol' fashioned people. The MAGIs could only deliberate chances of success of these plans...

Are these supercomputers little more than percentage analysers?! :shock:

Perhaps Anno and the rest of those cheeky monkeys at Gainax thought computers would be better if they were more of a hinderence than a help.

It worked well for the original Star Trek...

You be the judge!
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Postby The Eva Monkey » Thu Jul 22, 2004 8:29 am

Interesting topic. In the case of the Yashima operation, and the attack the falling angel Sahaquiel, the Magi were used to calculate probability of success. In the first case, they gave two affirmatives, and one conditional affirmative. They were right. In the second they recommended evacuation. This may have been right, simply stating that the risk is too high, and that though the operation has propability of success, it is low.

The magi don't structure operations, that's Misato's job. She however can feed scenarios to the Magi and see what they have to say about things. However there are many unknowns, and considering that, you can have the best computer in the world, and it won't be right all the time.

The Magi are primarily used for calculation and scenario. They run the government, so they crunch numbers, find the most effective and efficient way to allocate and dedicate funds for planning. I don't know any more than that assumption. How exactly does a computer run a city? Damned if I know. But the Magi are cut and dry, and mathematical thinking isn't always applicable to tactical situations.
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Postby ShoKenju » Thu Jul 22, 2004 8:29 am

suspense
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Postby EVA-01X » Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:35 pm

BAM!
Thats it right there! This is one of those time where you chalk this kind of thing up to the fact that NGE, while being a great example of the following, is just an anime. Not everything has to make perfect sense at times
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Postby Dave » Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:27 pm

Actually what Mr. Monkey said seems to make perfect sense to me. They calculate stuff, plain and simple. I mean they are only computers right? Very good computers albeit, but computers none the less.
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Postby Esion » Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:46 pm

Not to mention that you have to take into account the massive caculations it would take to run a city. Regulating water and sewer distribution, regulating power and adjusting power where needed, controling traffic, running budget figures and allocating funds, etc. One computer is doing the job of an entire city government and regulating infrustructural needs.

Considering it is probably doing all of those things and more every second of every day and running combat scenarios is pretty impressive for one computer system.

I'd have to agree that the Nerv Agency isn't exactly full of tactical masterminds. Magi does all the caculations but the tactics are left to humans who make errors. In addition Nerv is pretty easily destroyed by JSSDF/Seele forces in EoE. You'd think they would be better soldiers but they seem to be mostly thinkers and engineers.
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Postby Asterix » Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:49 pm

Dave wrote:Actually what Mr. Monkey said seems to make perfect sense to me. They calculate stuff, plain and simple. I mean they are only computers right? Very good computers albeit, but computers none the less.


And, being computers, they were obsolete by the time they were installed. ;)

Some of it may have also fallen into the category of yeah, they're using giant humanoid robots, but there is always that feeling of not wanting to have one's life run by a machine. Misato had the authority she had for a reason - the computers get to play scenarios for them, calculate stuff, sure. But when it all comes down to a final decision, which would you rather have make the decision that could possibly kill you or somebody you care about? You, or a machine that might have missed some obscure, out in left field factor that could ruin you plans? If I'm going to screw up, I want it to at least be my fault...
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Postby Kiel » Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:03 am

Alright, so the magi are not as "super" as they are supercompputers.

However, perhaps this could be explained...

When Ritsuko was repairing the Magi system CASPAR, there was a section of the computer that looked like...

...a brain!

Ritsuko refers to CASPAR as her mother, due to the fact that Nayoko created the original MAGI system, but...

Is that Naoko's brain in CASPAR?! :shock:

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Postby sadsadshinji » Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:30 am

they fell to the jssdf easy because of a) advantage in technique and equipment, b) surprise (kinda) c) lack of defenses in the facility d) a defence system geared against angels...they were good soldiers, but trying to compare then to the jssdf os like comparing the LAPD to the SEAL team...

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Postby aranami » Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:32 am

The Eva Monkey wrote:Interesting topic. In the case of the Yashima operation, and the attack the falling angel Sahaquiel, the Magi were used to calculate probability of success. In the first case, they gave two affirmatives, and one conditional affirmative. They were right. In the second they recommended evacuation. This may have been right, simply stating that the risk is too high, and that though the operation has propability of success, it is low.

The magi don't structure operations, that's Misato's job. She however can feed scenarios to the Magi and see what they have to say about things. However there are many unknowns, and considering that, you can have the best computer in the world, and it won't be right all the time.

The Magi are primarily used for calculation and scenario. They run the government, so they crunch numbers, find the most effective and efficient way to allocate and dedicate funds for planning. I don't know any more than that assumption. How exactly does a computer run a city? Damned if I know. But the Magi are cut and dry, and mathematical thinking isn't always applicable to tactical situations.


Super-computers are used in the same way in the real world. If you Link a couple of super-computers together you can test just about anything in a virtual world. They touch on this in the game "Metal Gear Solid", where they were used to test a new type of nuke.

What I think the Magi do is run the senario through many times. Each time it runs through, the computer simulates something that could possably go wrong, or somthing that could happen(ie. when Unit-00 throws the lance, mabye she trips :lol: ). I think what the Magi do is tally up all the outcomes that are positive and tells you what percentage of the time the scenario worked in the virtual world. But even with that data it is still vertual, so it is not always right

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Postby Esion » Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:25 am

sadsadshinji wrote:they fell to the jssdf easy because of a) advantage in technique and equipment, b) surprise (kinda) c) lack of defenses in the facility d) a defence system geared against angels...they were good soldiers, but trying to compare then to the jssdf os like comparing the LAPD to the SEAL team...


That's why it leads me to believe that the employees of Nerv were not master tacticians but instead scientists and engineers. Misato is the only one in the group who seems to have any advanced military knowledge. Although this is rather off topic. I would think that an elite group with the responsibility of saving (in actuality dooming) mankind would be the best of the best. In actuality Nerv is nothing more than computer nerds, Eva engineers, a megalomaniac mastermind (Gendo) and his helpers (Mistato, Eva Pilots, etc).
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Postby Carl Horn » Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:52 pm

Esion wrote:
sadsadshinji wrote:they fell to the jssdf easy because of a) advantage in technique and equipment, b) surprise (kinda) c) lack of defenses in the facility d) a defence system geared against angels...they were good soldiers, but trying to compare then to the jssdf os like comparing the LAPD to the SEAL team...


That's why it leads me to believe that the employees of Nerv were not master tacticians but instead scientists and engineers. Misato is the only one in the group who seems to have any advanced military knowledge. Although this is rather off topic. I would think that an elite group with the responsibility of saving (in actuality dooming) mankind would be the best of the best. In actuality Nerv is nothing more than computer nerds, Eva engineers, a megalomaniac mastermind (Gendo) and his helpers (Mistato, Eva Pilots, etc).


I think NERV is comparable perhaps to the staff of the Manhattan Project--a quasi-millitary group of scientists and engineers possessing powerful but experimental weapons whose relationship to the military and political structures of Japan (remember they are a UN organization on Japanese territory--very "black helicopter") remains controversial.

Some of the people on the Manhattan Project weren't the most stable or normal, but they were the only people on Earth who could actually build a working atomic bomb at the time. The authorities had no choice but to extend them some trust, but that doesn't mean they were easy about it. At various times in EVA we see the Japanese government and other sovereign nations upset about what NERV is doing and what it is costing. Kaji's spy mission is just a symptom of that.

The MAGI seem to have been built not primarily as tactical simulators (and, as has been pointed out, the U.S. today has the world's most advanced supercomputing at its disposal, but it doesn't ensure us victory on the streets of Fallujah). Instead, they seem to have been built as part of the creation of the Evangelion Units themselves. Admittedly EVA is not a hard-SF show, but it seems that as computer analysis was to the Human Genome Project, the MAGI are to the Eva Units.

An interesting subject for fan fiction and doujinshi would be how Misato got her tactical training. It's possible that she was purely a "staff officer" in the years before 2015, but when it comes tiime to first lead the Children, she certainly acts with more confidence than the stereotypical green officer out of the academy. In THE END OF EVANGELION, she also seems hardly afraid or unskilled when it comes to personal combat.

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Postby Dave » Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:21 pm

You can just come out and say it Carl; Misato kicks major ass. I too would be quite interested in a doujinshi detailing her life before 2015. Anyone know if such a thing exists already?
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Postby Hunter21 » Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:37 pm

Carl Horn wrote:but it seems that as computer analysis was to the Human Genome Project, the MAGI are to the Eva Units.
--C.


Wow, now that was a beatiful analogy.
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Postby Cyanna » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:25 pm

Kiel wrote:Alright, so the magi are not as "super" as they are supercompputers.

However, perhaps this could be explained...

When Ritsuko was repairing the Magi system CASPAR, there was a section of the computer that looked like...

...a brain!

Ritsuko refers to CASPAR as her mother, due to the fact that Nayoko created the original MAGI system, but...

Is that Naoko's brain in CASPAR?! :shock:

I like to theink so!



Ehhh....there are brains inside the Evas too. Ritsuko tells Misato that they share the same technology involving the use of transplanted personalities.

And Naoko was alive to see the Magi activated anyway...

I think it's just fitting decoration.

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Postby ChronoX » Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:12 pm

7 generation computers are able to have a transplant os installed on to them. So the brain could have been cloned from nayoko and her personality was transplanted into it.

As far as the eva's the same could be applied.
They had brains in them but were void of a soul and personality
then Yui, Asuka's mom and whosoever is the soul of 00 got in to the eva and were absorbed into the brain.
Not sure though.
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Postby Dark FireStar » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:43 pm

ChronoX wrote:7 generation computers are able to have a transplant os installed on to them. So the brain could have been cloned from nayoko and her personality was transplanted into it.

As far as the eva's the same could be applied.
They had brains in them but were void of a soul and personality
then Yui, Asuka's mom and whosoever is the soul of 00 got in to the eva and were absorbed into the brain.
Not sure though.


but if see was absorbed in to 000 then why does she always show up on shinjis eva (001)
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Postby Kiel » Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:37 pm

Yui Ikari disapeared during the test of NERV's first prototype Eva (Unit 01) It's her soul inside Shinji's Eva (or so they say :? )

Kyoko Zhepplin Souryu (Asuka's mommy) was involved with the testing/development of Unit-02 in Germany. It's her soul inside Asuka's Eva (That's what they
want
you to think :? )

It's presummed that perhaps Rei I's soul resides inside Unit-00 (a government conspiriacy! :? )


My opinion...well...

..it's too weird...you guys'll think I'm crazy :?
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Postby ChronoX » Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:30 pm

say it anyway
who cares if it is crazy
please :) :)
"We are born, meant to die. If I am to die, then let it be with a sword in my hand, my enemies at my feet, and my blood on my body. Come forward, come forward, come forward! And let us all meet in bloody combat."-The Rose Lord, William Rose.

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Postby advent_child » Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:43 am

But we're all crazy here somehow...


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