BM-03: Shinji Ikari??

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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BM-03: Shinji Ikari??

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Postby cyharding » Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:37 pm

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:Misato is a what now?


Yeah, who said she was one? She seemed like a capable commander to me.

With that being said, I've been doing some thinking ever since I got my copy of the movie and I found something in the viewings that made me think that things are a lot more complicated than it appears regarding Shinji (I watched it again a couple of nights ago to make sure I wasn't mistaken on certain points). In order to tell you what conclusion I made, I want to go through some plot points from when Shinji is on the Wunder and show how I came to my conclusion:

1. As he is being wheeled to the Wunder's bridge, Shinji is under heavy restraint, with four guards aiming automatic rifles at him. For someone of Shinji's size and stature, this seems pretty excessive. I don't have a lot of upper body strength compared to other guys my age, but I'm sure I can backhand the kid into next week if I had the inclination. I also remember reading somewhere on this forum (I think Bagheera was the one who wrote it) that law enforcement and security personnel are trained to only aim their weapon at someone only if they know they're going to shoot. One would think that moderate restraints and one guard with a holstered pistol would be enough. The film's events only show that he is a danger when he is in an Eva, so what would warrant such security measures?

2. Again as he is on the gurney during the transfer, we get a shot of his feet. On Shinji's right foot is written in what appears to be black marker "BM-03" while his left has "S.Ikari?" written. Now, it's obvious that they were unsure if it was really Shinji. But we can also see that if there was a BM-03, common sense dictates that there must be a BM-01 & BM-02.

3. When Misato asks Ritsuko if it is Shinji they have in front of him, She replies that he "seems to be."** Even though she says in the next sentence that his physiological and dental patterns match those made before N3I, Ritsuko chooses to remain vague on her part. Later when Shinji was transferred to the quarantine section, he was still referred to as BM-03 and that they're calling him his given name on a provisional basis. If his records were a complete match between then and now, why is there still ambiguity over whether or not it's really him?

4. After the Mark 09 takes Shinji and they fly off, Asuka remarks as she sees the jet trail, "This Shinji is not only an idiot, he's a brat." (Italics place for empathasis)

So what conclusions can be drawn from these four items:

1. During the timeskip, there were at least two beings with Shinji's image and likeness, even down to sharing the same DNA pattern.

2. These beings had unique abilites such as enhanced strength or speed.

3.They are very dangerous and to let your guard down around them is to put your life in great peril.

If this is the case, it would explain the cold reception Shinji got on the Wunder's bridge. I mean, would a person be smiles and sunshine if you think that kid might try to kill you? So if the cast has bad memories of Shinji, it might not be of the Shinji that we see in the movies.

**Of course, I'm using the Home release subtitles as they are the offical English translation of the film. I understand that there are fan-produced translations that might say something different, and as I've read that translating Japanese to English is more on an art than a science, it's understandable that the accuracy or inaccuracy of the lines I used as evidence might be subject to scrutiny and debate.

That's pretty much it. This is the first time I've delved into something this much regarding Eva. I have more to say regarding this subject, but it would be specualtion and this thread might not be the right place for it. I should also note that jcmoorehead's post-3.33 fic, "Hand Cannot Erase," touches the subject a little, so I was convinced I haven't completely gone mad. If any mod or admin feels thsi should go somewhere else, feel free to move it. Thank you for your time.

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Re: Memories Of Shinji: Months Of Good Vs A Decade of Bad

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:16 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:someone had to start 3I proper. If that was BM-01 or BM-02 that would explain a hell of a lot.

Which makes it all the more frustrating (and puzzling, actually) that Kaworu - who must have known the answer - didn't say anything useful on the matter.

OTOH, I associate the BM-xx with extraction from Unit-01, which they've only just recovered. How would BM-01/02 resemble Shinji if they came before its recovery. Ah! - maybe Unit-01 was only sent into space after true-3I! BM-01/02 came much earlier (perhaps before the formation of Wille, even?).
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Re: Memories Of Shinji: Months Of Good Vs A Decade of Bad

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:25 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Which makes it all the more frustrating (and puzzling, actually) that Kaworu - who must have known the answer - didn't say anything useful on the matter.

OTOH, I associate the BM-xx with extraction from Unit-01, which they've only just recovered. How would BM-01/02 resemble Shinji if they came before its recovery. Ah! - maybe Unit-01 was only sent into space after true-3I! BM-01/02 came much earlier (perhaps before the formation of Wille, even?).


That's certainly possible. They presumably tried to get Shinji back before they sent Unit 01 into orbit, a la ep 20.

As to Kaworu . . . well, Kaworu. He's obviously trying to start an impact, and he's telling Shinji what he needs to hear to make that happen. He ain't Jesus, he's the devil! :devil:
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Re: Memories Of Shinji: Months Of Good Vs A Decade of Bad

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Postby Sachi » Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:29 am

The BMs could be in reference to what was recovered from the Tesseract: Unit-01, the SDAT Player, and Shinji. Or possibly what was recovered from Unit-01 itself: the SDAT, Shinji, and something else?
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Re: Memories Of Shinji: Months Of Good Vs A Decade of Bad

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Postby jcmoorehead » Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:34 am

The BM-01/02 thing I found to be quite interesting and it was only on the third time I watched 3.33 I really noticed and started to think about the significance of it. It is something I'll be coming back to when I write the sequel to Hand.Cannot.Erase. I kinda of assumed the BM stood for something like Biomass, so an implication that whatever 01/02 was it was supposed to be some sort of living being.

My idea was that the BM01/02 didn't cause Actual Third Impact but did pose a threat in some fashion so they were very wary when BM03 appeared and it turned out to look like Shinji.

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Re: Memories Of Shinji: Months Of Good Vs A Decade of Bad

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:37 am

So what would the earlier BMs have been formed from (whenever they were extracted)? Presumably something associated with the tenth angel...
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: Kaworu starts to prepare Shinji for dual-piloting (details); Past avatars.
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Re: Memories Of Shinji: Months Of Good Vs A Decade of Bad

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:40 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:So what would the earlier BMs have been formed from (whenever they were extracted)? Presumably something associated with the tenth angel...


LCL?
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Memories Of Shinji: Months Of Good Vs A Decade of Bad

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:47 am

But that alone would seem more likely to form something neutral rather than as dangerous as the precautions used for BM-03 seem to imply.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
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Re: Memories Of Shinji: Months Of Good Vs A Decade of Bad

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:51 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:But that alone would seem more likely to form something neutral rather than as dangerous as the precautions used for BM-03 seem to imply.


I'm not sure that's true. If Shinji is an impact trigger, and if he was activated after the events of Ha, then it's possible that any subsequent iteration of him would continue the process. So, if he reforms at all, he's pretty darn dangerous.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: BM-03: Shinji Ikari??

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Postby Sachi » Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:01 am

What's neutral about LCL? Aren't the Angels also comprised of LCL?

Wille's wariness of Shinji, IMO, was due to possible angelic contamination, just as Nerv was cautious with Asuka after Bardiel.
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Re: BM-03: Shinji Ikari??

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:29 am

LCL is merely the substance; the form is what defines its characteristics, and the creation of that form needs to be guided somehow (such as by angelic contamination, as I suggested).

Still, I'm finding the idea that true 3I was caused by an earlier attempt to recover Shinji rather intriguing - it would mean that those who tried it would also feel a measure of guilt as well as blaming him, which would play into their attitudes in Q.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
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Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

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Re: BM-03: Shinji Ikari??

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Postby jcmoorehead » Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:40 am

This is all pure speculation but is there the possibility that when Unit 01 caused the Near Third Impact and then went on to be at (Presumably it was) the heart of the actual Third Impact in some fashion that it could have taken on extra materials either from the tenth Angel or some of the souls that were likely to have been floating around at the time during whatever processes were ongoing that could have guided the creation of BM-01 and BM-02?

My idea for HCE was that these beings resembled Shinji maybe for a moment, Shinji's soul was perhaps the dominant one within the Entry Plug so it was his form that was attempted to be reconstructed but then what came out quickly devolved into something else entirely or came out not resembling him at all. Perhaps not a malevolent being as such but one that was uncontrollable.

It was possibly after the second attempt that Unit 01 was sealed into the tesseract and sent into space until they perhaps had a safer way of extracting the real Shinji. Yet naturally they still had to be careful.

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Re: BM-03: Shinji Ikari??

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:45 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:Wille's wariness of Shinji, IMO, was due to possible angelic contamination, just as Nerv was cautious with Asuka after Bardiel.


It's that. Sakura confirms that he has continuity of memory with Shinji and they ran tests on his body composition and dental records to make sure he's the real deal. They definitely want to be certain that he's Shinji and not something else.

I thought the BM-03 thing was a reference to the black hole bomb Buster Machine 03. The "03" part could refer to Shinji's status as the Third Child, and if that's the case, it's possible there are no BM-01 and BM-02. But if they do exist, I think there's a good chance Asuka was one of them. Her situation in 2.0 is very similar to what Shinji experiences and Ritsuko does say she's a valuable specimen.
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Re: BM-03: Shinji Ikari??

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Postby Sicarius VI » Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:53 am

Did someone quickly sum up BM-03 as Biological Mass - 03?
Being Shinji is a human, and the third child.

If it was that easy though we may need to ask why Anno decided to include such a obsecure scene in 3.33 if it wasn't going to mean anything. I'd say it's possibly foreshadowing that Shinji may not be himself or something like that. Also if 03 doesn't refer to being the Third Child, then could it be the third attempt at rescuing Shinji from the Eva that ended in failure?
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Re: BM-03: Shinji Ikari??

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:05 am

The one monkey wrench in the "third attempt" argument is the fact that Wille appeared surprised at finding Shinji in Unit 01. That suggests both that they did not try to retrieve him now, and that they hadn't made previous attempts -- if either of those things were not true they wouldn't have been surprised to find him in the plug.
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The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: BM-03: Shinji Ikari??

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Postby jcmoorehead » Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:44 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:The one monkey wrench in the "third attempt" argument is the fact that Wille appeared surprised at finding Shinji in Unit 01. That suggests both that they did not try to retrieve him now, and that they hadn't made previous attempts -- if either of those things were not true they wouldn't have been surprised to find him in the plug.


That's true, although maybe it's possible that this wasn't an attempt to retrieve Shinji but just Unit 01 for now and Shinji reemerging was an unexpected byproduct of that.

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Re: BM-03: Shinji Ikari??

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:45 am

Or perhaps there had been previous failed attempts (maybe before Unit-01 was exiled), so this time they didn't bother but he appeared without them doing anything.

(edit: ninjaed!)
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: Kaworu starts to prepare Shinji for dual-piloting (details); Past avatars.
Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

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Re: BM-03: Shinji Ikari??

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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:17 pm

Which would then rise the question of why Unit-01 decided to spit Shinji out now and not during the attempts to retrieve him 14 years ago?
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Re: BM-03: Shinji Ikari??

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Postby jcmoorehead » Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:34 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Which would then rise the question of why Unit-01 decided to spit Shinji out now and not during the attempts to retrieve him 14 years ago?


Yui works in mysterious ways? Maybe the additional contamination meant that that had to be purged first before Shinji could be spat out. Or possibly something else was needed, Shinji/Unit 01 reawakening does coincide with Asuka yelling for Shinji to help her, so possibly that had something to do with it.

Gotta say you guys are giving me a lot to think about for when I write the sequel to HCE :P

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Re: BM-03: Shinji Ikari??

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Postby Merkaba » Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:35 pm

BM - 01 = Yui?
BM - 02 = Rei?


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