Are the films worth watching?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Are the films worth watching?

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Postby Crystalline » Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:23 pm

Just how much of it is a re-telling of the events from the original series? Is it mostly just a remake?

I'm also concerned about one thing; possibly decay in quality in regards to character development and storytelling. The problem with recent shows (and movies for that matter) is that they're becoming less "good". Meaning, there's often tons of fan service, and very little character depth. I like serious shows; mature series where characters feel relatable and, most importantly, human. That's one of the things that made me enjoy NGE so much.

All this begs the question: Just how serious and mature are the films when compared to the original series? I've also noticed that there's this new female Eva pilot. What's up with that? Is she an interesting, well-built character? Or is she just there for more fan service and such? IDK, maybe I'm overanalyzing things way too much, but I'm a bit scared that these films may just end up being way too childish in comparison.

Any advice?

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Re: Are the films worth watching?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:10 am

The first film is a close remake of the first six episodes, with an impressively updated take on Ramiel -- then starts wandering off the rails. The second is a rather less faithful reworking of up to about episode 20, and the third goes into entirely uncharted territory. The fourth has no release date.

I'm an outlier here, but I disliked the changes that had accumulated during the first movie, and was sufficiently put off by the trailers and other pre-release promotional material for the second to have not bothered with that, let alone the third. The second movie was also greeted here with derision in some quarters on account of the changed and shallow characterisation of major characters.

Mari, the new pilot, does not seem, by all accounts, to be well-built apart from in the bust.
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Re: Are the films worth watching?

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:41 am

There's really only one way to go. Watch the films. Make up your own mind.

On the surface one could argue the new films are a much shallower experience than the TV series because as a cinematic experience move faster, have much flashier animation, relegate certain characters to more supporting roles, and are emotionally straight forward. On the other hand, I personally find them to be just as captivating as the TV series because while NGE goes about confronting issues of depression, trauma & humanity in a very overt & experimentally fresh manner by putting all of Anno's emotional insight out of the table bare, the Rebuild films go about that same process in a more subdued manner by smuggling in such themes & emotional insight while still delivering Grade A entertainment.

It's impossible to comment on the Rebuild franchise as a whole yet but I personally find the Rebuild films to be the works of a much stronger, confident and intelligent filmmaker than the original TV series. The original series is far more emotionally dense and nakedly powerful because it's the work of a young man. The Rebuilds are more a case of an artist smuggling his themes into blockbuster films. Though 3.0 while featuring many great action sequences sure doesn't play by as many blockbuster rules as the first two entries.

If you are truly interested in the films the best advice I can give for this series & any films/TV series/books/essays/etc is to set aside time to experience them yourself. Don't listen to the words of others - I add myself to that - and instead create your own viewpoint from a personal experience. It won't be wrong because it will be your own view on them as an emotional experience. You might love them - like I & many others have - or you might flat out hate them and decide the final unreleased movie holds no interest for you - which a lot have felt as well - and either is a right viewpoint.

PS. While "the second movie was greeted with derision in some quarters on account of the changed and shallow characterization of major characters" just as many, if not more, people embraced the film as what it was, the second part of a four part story.

P.S.S. Mari, the new pilot, while lacking in DEEP, THOUGHT-PROVOKING aspects is perfectly fine as a secondary character & a new flavor to add to the Eva universe.

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Re: Are the films worth watching?

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:07 am

Honestly, Crystalline, the reception has been so varied that you should just check them out yourself. They don't require that much of a time investment, and most Eva fans are going to get at least some enjoyment out of them, from the spectacular visuals and the interesting meta-commentary on the original series if nothing else. Nothing else I can really add that Gendo'sPapa hasn't already said.
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Re: Are the films worth watching?

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:04 am

View Original PostCrystalline wrote:Any advice?

Be positive. Some people don't like them, but some people do - so logically, there are things about them that can be liked as well as disliked. In any case, any work contains better and less good elements. Don't rely on our second-hand opinions (or third-hand in one case above) - watch them yourself and decide what is good about them, and whether that outbalances their weaknesses in your eyes. Then come back and tell us what you think!
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Re: Are the films worth watching?

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:03 pm

Yeah, "watch and form your own opinions" is definitely the way to go. After seeing the second movie I wasn't a fan of the series as a whole, but once I saw the third my opinion got turned on its head -- I not only came to appreciate the third for its own sake, but the way it plays off of the second and casts the whole series in an altogether different light is endlessly fascinating to me. They're definitely worth watching so you can judge for yourself.
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A shadow of its former self

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Postby Crystalline » Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:24 pm

That's what this series of films turned out to be.

Just got done watching 3.0 and I'm absolutely appalled.

It has been previously stated that these new movies were going to serve as a way to make NGE more accessible to new audiences, and boy does it meet that requirement dead on, cause these films are a laughably more basic and simplified experience than the original TV series and movie that preceded them.

Not all is bad, though. 1.0 manages to hang on and stick to what made NGE fantastic for virtually its entirety. The same cannot be said for 2.0 and 3.0, unfortunately.

From recycled Anime tropes to witty, snappy dialogue, and a character that receives little to no character development whatsoever; Mari never once felt believable nor fully fleshed out. Not once. Clearly just an element put in there for the sake of fan service, I can assume. Not once showing fragility, a speck of emotion, a realistic portrayal of a human being amidst such a chaotic environment. No nothing.

Years ago Anno believed in his work, he was passionate about it and it showed, in the form of one of the industry's all-time classics. Now he's just out to make a buck.

Up until around 2007 (give or take) series relied much more on good character development, dialogue, and substance. This is evidently clear if you watch stuff that predates that era. Ever heard of Cowboy Bebop? Of course you did. Do you think a show like that would ever be made in this day and age? Not a chance. Now all we have is deus ex machina, seemingly invincible main characters who get every single female within a 10 mile radius to fall in love with them, fan service off the fucking charts, and empty shells for characters.

Take a stroll through time and you'll see that quality has been declining in Anime as we move forward. It doesn't take rocket science to realize the Rebuild films were victims of just that.

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Re: A shadow of its former self

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Postby Sachi » Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:27 pm

^So, basically what you don't like about Rebuild is that it appears to be a stripped down version of the series?

IMO, 3.0 is magnificent.
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Re: A shadow of its former self

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:41 pm

Very glad that you watched the films.

Don't agree with you in the slightest on the Rebuild films but huge props on actually watching the movies to form your own opinion. I hope we get the chance to debate them on here sometime.

I also would argue against the flawed "things were better back then" logic. While I too find most contemporary anime to be garbage - I haven't watched anything in ages - I'd say the same thing about most anime made before 2007. The great works of any given year always stand the test while the other fluff that is needed to fulfill an industry providing new content year round just fades away into oblivion. I would bet Cowboy Bebop was as much of an outlier in 1998 as it would be in 2018 only for different reasons. Good work always gets made. Bad work also always gets made. The difference is the good gets remembered and the bad gets forgotten.

Final note, I would argue against the idea that Rebuilds are just about Anno making a quick buck. In a way they are but so are all major releases. NGE was about making a buck. Cowboy Bebop was about making a buck. Raging Bull was about a making buck. But it's what the artist does that provides the validity. And it strikes me as a flawed argument to make about the Rebuilds when the third film intentionally strays as far away from the "Give the Fans what they want" attitude of 2.0 as it could. If this was all about making a buck wouldn't 3.0 be a much happier, fan-friendly feature? Something that features more interplay between Shinji & the rest of the cast & has a much lighter tone with more quips? At the very least the female cast - who in general have moved past Shinji in 3.0 - would still be falling all over him to make male fans happy?
Last edited by Gendo'sPapa on Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: A shadow of its former self

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Postby Crystalline » Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:44 pm

So, basically what you don't like about Rebuild is that it appears to be a stripped down version of the series?


More like a dumbed down version of the series. Exposition here, shots of asses and someone's crotch area there, moments that looked like something out of Attack On Titan, young teenage girls giggling and spazzing out in excitement in situations where they are potentially facing life-threatening situations, and a ridiculous reliance on special effects. The set pieces are great and all, but that's not what makes a film or a series. In essence, all around stellar quality (that's sarcasm).

But hey, what matters is that someone made money off of all this, right?

PS: While the original TV series DID have some fan service, it was extremely moderate. 2.0 and 3.0 seem to have taken that to a whole new level.

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I'm gonna quote portions of someone's review over at MAL, as I feel this person took the words right out of my mouth. This is solely on 3.0, mind you.

"Do you remember the preview at the end of Evangelion 2.0? Yeah, none of that happens in this movie. Instead, the remainder of the film is a joyless husk; a cheap imitation of NGE that plays out more like self-indulgent fanfiction than something written and directed by the original creator. Following a fourteen year (yes, fourteen) time skip, in which no one has aged a day — a minor inconvenience that is apathetically hand waved near the outset — protagonist Shinji Ikari enters a world in which everyone hates him but refuses to say why. Poor Shinji is just as confused as the audience by this, but all of his requests for clarification seem to result in a reply of “don’t touch anything”, “be quiet”, or “fuck off ya twat”."

"Fans of human interaction and actual dialogue will no doubt be distressed by the fact that Kaworu is the only likable character and how the interesting dynamics and relationships of past Evangelion works have been completely discarded in 3.0. Rei has maybe twenty lines total, the majority of them being “I don’t know” and “that is not my order”. Gendo says all of one sentence to Shinji and only has a couple more lines after that. Ritsuko exists solely to deliver exposition and disappears after the first act. Misato is basically a new character. Mari speaks almost entirely in one-liners. Kaji doesn’t even appear."

Really, what else is there to say? The fact that the vast majority of this forum's members have praised 3.0 is astounding.

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Re: A shadow of its former self

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Postby Sachi » Sat Jun 04, 2016 11:22 pm

View Original PostCrystalline wrote:More like a dumbed down version of the series.

Viewing it in this way is a mistake. First, it should be expected to be "stripped/dumbed down" because the run-time is significantly shorter. Next, Rebuild is not trying to accomplish the same things the series did, and thinking that it is will definitely diminish your enjoyment. It's very much its own series, just one that happens to be built on the foundation of another familiar series.

PS: While the original TV series DID have some fan service, it was extremely moderate. 2.0 and 3.0 seem to have taken that to a whole new level.

Fanservice in 3.0? Where? Naked Rei Q? Naked Rei Q at least served a narrative purpose of paralleling the scene in 1.0 with Shinji and naked Rei II in her apartment after showering (which was even more fan service-y), as well as making her appear even more creepy and doll-like than her predecessor.

I'll will agree that 2.0 is filled with gratuitous fan service, but it also seems like that was the point of the movie. 2.0 panders to mainstream anime audiences, almost to the point of satire, by giving us a badass Shiji, a harem of females after his dick, and loads of fanservice . The impact of 2.0's purpose as a film is realized when 3.0 turns it on its head, giving us nearly the opposite: Shinji is brought to his lowest, all the ladies hate him, and there's almost no fanservice whatsoever in the entire film (at least not blatant fan service).

Lasty, regarding Anno simply looking for a cash grab: he's dedicated over ten years to this project (which is significantly longer than he did with NGE, and a significant amount of commitment for something he's supposedly not passionate about), and after 3.0 he was left emotionally drained and depressed once again, to the point where he didn't step foot back in Khara for several months. If he was doing it just for money, 3.0 would have looked and felt a lot more like 2.0.

EDIT: nope, one more bit
View Original PostCrystalline wrote:Really, what else is there to say? The fact that the vast majority of this forum's members have praised 3.0 is astounding.

Yeah, it's amazing that one of few fan communities dedicated to Eva actually likes the new Eva movies. In my eyes, that just says we're more familiar and have better appreciation for the material, than say a general anime community like MAL. If anything, wouldn't it be worse if the Eva community were the ones that extremely disliked it? That would mean that Anno failed in reaching even his already established audience. The fact that 3.0 is pretty accepted around here says he succeeded in whatever his aim was.
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Re: A shadow of its former self

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:36 am

I realize Eva's a story that repeats, but having people repeat this same argument over and over again is getting awfully tiresome.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: A shadow of its former self

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Postby Reichu » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:51 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I realize Eva's a story that repeats, but having people repeat this same argument over and over again is getting awfully tiresome.

Which argument specifically?
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Re: A shadow of its former self

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:58 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Which argument specifically?


Some variant of "the new movies are shallow cash grabs with no redeeming value", often coupled with "Mari is a pointless character who serves no purpose and is only in the movies for fanservice." Both arguments are ridiculously easy to refute, and yet people keep on making them over and over and over and . . .

But yeah, coming after Sachi's post it's not clear what I was referring to there, so sorry for the confusion.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: A shadow of its former self

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:30 am

View Original PostCrystalline wrote:That's what this series of films turned out to be.
This is where I have to say "I told you so."

It is interesting now to look back at the original discussion, almost a decade old now, around the initial news that we might be getting more Evangelion. You can see both wildly optimistic interpretations by the crew here, and official word that, in benefit of hindsight, can be seen to align with the productions as they actually appeared.

Now it is possible to see an outline of what we might get in the case where Anno succeeds in making Evangelion into "a tale", in the same way that he said that Gundam is -- each iteration checking a series of boxes that make it recognisably a retread of 0079. Just wait for Evangelion : Iron Blooded Orphans, scripted by Mari Okada, because you know something just like it is looming in our futures.
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Re: A shadow of its former self

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:36 am

^ Anything you say means dog shit because you haven't even watched the films.

That kind of attitude would get you thrown out of any intellectual conversation in the real world but this is the internet where ignorance is bliss.

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Re: A shadow of its former self

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:44 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Now it is possible to see an outline of what we might get in the case where Anno succeeds in making Evangelion into "a tale", in the same way that he said that Gundam is -- each iteration checking a series of boxes that make it recognisably a retread of 0079. Just wait for Evangelion : Iron Blooded Orphans, scripted by Mari Okada, because you know something just like it is looming in our futures.


Not a great example, since IBO doesn't really feel like a Gundam show at all (and is noteworthy for the number of Gundam boxes it didn't check).

Also, I'd watch a Mari Okada Eva story in a heartbeat.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: A shadow of its former self

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:59 am

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:^ Anything you say means dog shit because you haven't even watched the films.
Regular reminder that I watched 1.01, and had misgivings at the time.
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Re: A shadow of its former self

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:08 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Regular reminder that I watched 1.01, and had misgivings at the time.


That doesn't make your commentary about the other films any more valid, though.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: A shadow of its former self

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:28 am

That 2.0 caused a shitstorm here is undeniable fact -- though it was before your time, I had to moderate through the worst of it when almost everyone else on staff was running scared of spoilers.

I would be quite happy for anyone to refute

Mari, the new pilot, does not seem, by all accounts, to be well-built apart from in the bust.
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