The newest most accurate EoE subs to date are out

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The newest most accurate EoE subs to date are out

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Postby sephirotic » Mon May 09, 2016 7:25 pm

As I have mentioned on this thread:
thread/17983/Accurate-End-of-Evangelion-subtitles/
I was working in creating new subs for EoE from scratch using 3 different scripts as basis.
The work is finally done and the subs are now out.
EDIT: Current version, 1.3 (Added most of Reichu's suggestions. Added the "Death-threat" letters translations CORRECTED from Herkz's release on the Honorific subs. Added a period missing after "Lt")
https://mega.nz/#F!3kQChSjB!JYZ0Zb-81RMjJSygIwrzRw

I'm not sure if creating a new thread was adequate, If any admin dislikes it, we can merge it back to the older thread. But that thread wasn't getting much visibility, and just editing my last post wasn't going to help people see the announcement of the new subs.

pwhodges did an awesome thorough job doing the final QC for the subs, needed for me to call them 1.0. I'm pretty happy with them.
There are two versions out:

1) "Standard" Version
(aka: sober, recommended to those not accustomed to Japanese or fansubing or watching eva for the first time)

*No Lyrics,
*no sufixes,
*no Translation Notes marks.
*"Senpai" said by Maya is translated as "Ritsuko,
*Surnames and Nouns are in the direct order.

2) "Honorifics" Version
(Recommended for all of us that have already watched EoE at least once)

*-san and -kun honorifics are present,
*"Senpai" is maintained (although I translated "sensei", said by Gendou as "professor"),
*lyrics for both Komm süsser tod and Hajimari e no Touji are present,
*Indirect order of Surnames preserved (Akagi, Ritsuko-kun instead of Ritsuko Akagi)
*and most importantly are the translation notes. (They are NOT long lines on the top of the video, mind you.) They are small discrete refer indexes [1], [2], [3] on the top left corner of the video, referring to full explanations of ambiguous and vague difficult terms shown by the Credits scene, or to be read on an external .doc file.

*Proper improved Timing and Typesetting on both subs. (Although not at the same level of consecrated Quality fansubers, mind you).

My job in making this new translation wasn't restricted to just triple-looking 3 different scripts and splicing them fastidiously, not at all! I have actually checked dozens and dozens of difficult lines with kanji dictionaries (as I said before, I know some Japanese myself), consulted with people that knew Japanese and good native English speakers to find the best possible translations. There are several lines that were made anew, not present in neither of the 3 scripts existing around. All of the 3 scripts had mistakes, even the best one, the bochan_bird's, had some lines too much adapted that were better on CA or Manga's version and the language was not proper for subtitles. (Mr. Tines nice subs were based almost entirely on Bochan_birds script. Better than Manga's, of course, but still not quite what we wanted)

So I really dare to say this is THE BEST POSSIBLE SUBS WE EVER HAD FOR EoE AROUND.

It's not perfect, mind you, but it's the "best" (or "least worst", you name it). Ideally, someone native in English and with advanced knowledge of Japanese should have done it, but no one ever did. At least I got some guys to help me adapting the subs in proper English, and some external help with the Japanese. More people proofreading the subs and adapting the lines would always be good, and I encourage for you guys to post suggestions and corrections, I'll always alter it and keep it updated on Mega. Making this a "wikisub project" would also be interesting, although we would need a proper platform for that.
It would be really nice if any Admin take a look at it, and if they like the subs, link the files somewhere to give it more visibility.

I've also went through several archived and older threads of translations discussions on this very forum and took some of those posts into considerations when doing my script. However, due to the low movement, my attempt of resurrecting one such thread to have more opinion and contribution for this project was fruitless. It has been a very slow forum lately, and I feel most central figures have been drifting apart. A shame.

Anyway, I haven't had someone native in English to proofread the Translation Notes, so here are them for you guys to have an Idea what sort of difficult lines I had to preserve the ambiguity (and also to improve my non-native writing).

SPOILER: Show

Code: Select all

The End of Evangelion
Blu Rei Edition

Translation notes for the Brand New Subtitles made by Sephirotic.

Notes for 25’ (Air):

[1] Senpai: Veteran, senior, more experienced person, polite but could also carry a feeling of fondness.

[2] Ambiguous in the original

[3] Line triple checked. This line was incorrect in the original Manga translation (Bloat/Commie), giving the idea that Lilith came from Adam, which is incorrect. Lilith is a Source of Life LIKE Adam. This translation is the most accurate version around, adapted from Bochan_bird script.

[4] Misato is saying humans here, but she is referring to the Angels, as she has just explained, they are "just like us".

Notes for 26' (Sincerely Yours):

[5] "kokoro" (心) means literally "heart", but can also mean "mind", its feelings as well as "spirit" (or soul).  This creates a lot of confusion in the noted lines because in Eva, souls exist and are also the manifestation of ones ego and mind and they are the ones responsible in shaping people's bodies.  Due to that, people often failed to realize with previous translations, that people CAN AND WILL return from the LCL and that Shinji and Asuka ARE NOT the only living humans remaining.   

[6] "kazu ga tarimu ga" "we're short on the number of..." It's not clear as what they are short of. It shouldn't be of Evas, like on others subs because the Kabbalah Sephirotic System has specifically 9+1 Sephiroths, and there are 9 Eva series and Unit 01, all of which are working. 

[7]"Yorishiro" (依代) is a concept from Shintou of an object that receives a Kami (神) as a medium due to its importance.  Fuyutsuki Also calls Rei "Yorishiro" on episode 23, as "an objectification of his despair".  You can read more about it here: http://everything.explained.today/Yorishiro/ 

[8] "Mou ii no ne?" "ii" means "good", "ok" such as "It's ok", "It's alright". But this sentence can have several meanings and in some contexts it can be "That's enough!" It is also important to note, that it can also be used into the future, so Yui may be asking to Shinji both if he is okay in the present and/or if he will be okay from NOW on.   

[9]Although the term in the Old Testament used was "Fruit of Knowledge", Fuytsuki explicitly said "Wisdom". I have decided NOT to alter it. Neither of the others subs altered it. 知恵 (chie) wisdom 知識 (chishiki) knowledge. 

[10]This expression is vague by itself, it can mean both the fears of people from each other’s, as well as the fear others cause towards Shinji.

[11]"kimochi warui" The infamous final line of Eva. Hideaki Anno, the creator of Eva, stated himself that the final line was supposed to be vague and open to interpretation. The line can be used in a variety of situations, but most commonly meaning "I feel terrible" Both, psychologically or physically, such as feeling nauseous or sick. Notably, Asuka say this same line on episode 22' on a day when she was suffering from period cramps. The line is also often said by women when they think something is repulsive or disgusting to them, often said to men, as an impolite way to reject them. I personally don't like the Idea that Asuka is pushing Shinji away, especially after the characters being supposed to have improved as people in the movie and after Asuka have just caressed Shinji. However, there is a hint to what the line can mean, and that is this interview with Asuka's Seiyuu: http://kaworunagisas.tumblr.com/post/50624990410

[12] Although "hokan" (補完) means literally "complementation", the term "jinrui hokan keikaku (人類補完計画)" first heard on episode 2 is supposed to be translated as "Human Instrumentality Project". This is a citation to an American Sci-fi book with similar name. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumentality_of_Mankind In some cases, however, hokan is used to some inner details of the whole process, for such cases I decided to keep the literal meaning "complement/complementation" instead of adapting it to "instrumentalize" as it made more sense.

 [13] Keel says "mukui" (報い: reward; recompense; return; punishment; retribution).  This is another stilted mysterious and ambiguous line from Seele, such as "It’s our payback towards the Angels or our creators". But since Keel says "THIRD mukui”, he is likely referring to some process common in all the Impact events. One possible interpretation is that "Third mukui" actually is a pompous way to say "mu to kaeru", "Return to Nothing" as this is a recurring motif for the movie, even present on the original Japanese lyrics for "Komm Süsser Tod" written by Anno and its English adaptation.

[14] Fuyutuski says literally: "Inochi no taigataru" "(命の胎芽) which means literally "embryo of life". Most translations adapt this to "source of life", so did I.

Japanese Honorific suffixes explained:

"Honorific", in linguistic lingo, refers to the little prefixes, suffixes, or titles that are added to a name in most languages, like "Mr.", "Mrs.", "Dr.", "Sir" and the like. Japanese, naturally, has them. One interesting feature, however, is that there are far more of them with far more nuances of meaning than there are in other languages. They can be either attached to the end of a name, or in some cases (such as "sensei", much like the English "Professor") as standalone substitutes for names.
Etiquette is a critical part of Japanese language and culture, and honorifics are a key element in that. In general they are expressions of respect or endearment, but as with many terms in many languages, delivery — tone and emphasis — can change a title of utmost honor to a sarcastic insult. Using the wrong honorific, or the right honorific in the wrong way, can result in anything from simple disdain to (in feudal times, at least) clan warfare.
More and more often, they are used without explanation in English translations, more often in subtitles or translations of manga than in dubs. This makes sense in some contexts, such as when the characters are in a context that has a lot of Japanese cultural elements anyway, or when they are needed to prevent things being Lost in Translation, but translators have a tendency to just overdo it overall.

-san
The most common honorific, and the one most familiar to non-Japanese. Roughly equivalent to most everyday English honorifics, it is generally employed with someone of the same social station as yourself, but can be used any time you need to be generically polite. This is commonly translated and most closely related to the English "Mr." or "Ms." However, it's often dropped entirely in translations, since it's used in contexts where any honorific at all would seem excessively formal in English. (Example: high school students addressing each other with "Mr." or "Ms." would come across as overly formal)

-kun
Used with boys' names to denote familiarity or endearment; also used between peers by men, or when addressing someone younger or of a lower social standing. Despite its predominant usage with males, it can be used with girls as well, such as addressing a coworker of lower position. In particular, teachers will often use -kun for older female students. This is a way of preserving the difference in social standing, while avoiding the intimacy of an honorific such as -chan which might be considered inappropriate between teacher and student.

-senpai
Usually translated as "upperclassman" in stories set in high school or college, but it more precisely means “veteran”, "mentor" or "senior", depending on context; it is also used in workplaces, clubs, organizations etc. for employees/members with seniority in relevance to the speaker. Due to differences between romanization systems, it can be Senpai/sempai can be attached to the end of someone's name or be used on its own like Maya does here.

-sensei
Literally means "one who has come before". Usually heard in English referring to martial arts masters. Also applies to Professors, doctors, and masters of any profession or art. It is also standard for professional writers who are classed as teachers. In short, the rule of thumb runs thus: doctors, teachers, lawyers, writers and scientists who got their doctorates are called "sensei" automatically; with the others it's debatable. In recent years this has become an all-purpose suck-up word, and is now more often used sarcastically than as a genuinely respectful term.
In Eva, Shinji refers to his former guardian/tutor as “Sensei”. Where if he is an actual “Professor” or anything else, is unknown. Fuyutsuki is also called Sensei by Gendou, in the very first half of the EoE. Fuyutsuki is both a Professor, Doctor, and a Physician, all titles that can, on their own, lead to someone receiving the honorific. 
(Adapted from TVTroopes)

Please excuse English mistakes in these notes, not my first language, but don’t worry, the subtitles themselves were made together with the help of two excellent native speakers who QC’d them.

Thanks for watching, more information about Eva and this release check out Evageeks and this link: https://sephirotic.wordpress.com/

By Sephirotic
Last edited by sephirotic on Sat Jul 23, 2016 12:41 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: The newest most accurate EoE subs to date are out

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Postby Reichu » Mon May 09, 2016 11:16 pm

I really would like to help out at some point, but I have a lot on my plate right now so the timing isn't especially great for the level of depth and intensity I'd wish to provide.

One note: definitely keep it "embryo of life". Translating it "source of life" needlessly obscures the meaning (which might be important to understanding what the heck is going on there) and just creates confusion with the translation of "seimeitai no minamoto" in episode #25'.
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Re: The newest most accurate EoE subs to date are out

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Postby sephirotic » Tue May 10, 2016 5:22 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:I really would like to help out at some point, but I have a lot on my plate right now so the timing isn't especially great for the level of depth and intensity I'd wish to provide.


From what I could read during my digging of older translation discussions, your help would indeed be of much value for this project, Reichu. But I also understand that it would be a large commitment doing a thorough review of all the difficult lines in Japanese. I, myself, have never before in my life put so many hours of work into a hobby (besides learning piano) as I did fully translating the whole series (in Portuguese) and the movie from scratch in two different languages. I've re-watched everything, including the movie, at least 20 times since the BD was out. But in any event, if you ever decide to take a look at the subs, even if partially, please do post here any major alterations you may find necessary! No matter if it takes over an year for you ever deciding checking the subs for the first time. I'll receive an email warning about it. Even if Mega dies, I'll change the link to another server by then.

View Original PostReichu wrote:One note: definitely keep it "embryo of life". Translating it "source of life" needlessly obscures the meaning (which might be important to understanding what the heck is going on there) and just creates confusion with the translation of "seimeitai no minamoto" in episode #25'.


Good point, when we think about "seimeitai no minamoto" it becomes clear that a differentiation should be made. I'm discussing some translation suggestion for a proper English adaptation with pwhodges for this line, I'm considering:

"And now, it has been restored to the embryo of all living beings, the Tree of Life."
Instead of "embryo of life" to avoid repetition.

Even tough I decided to call the subs 1.0, I have done a lot of little tweaks and improvements to it since them. I guess it would need some time and effort for me to be completely satisfied with them. I'm also altering Asuka's line when she says she doesn't need Shinji, I'm feeling the current version does not give enough emphasis of what she is saying. I also noticed that "AT field kakunin" was adapted to "detected" instead "confirmed" for whatever reason, changed it too. After all these changes, I'll call it 1.1

Anyway, some more proofreading is still clearly needed, anyone willing to help do it would be appreciated. I may postpone my official "release" yet again.
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Re: The newest most accurate EoE subs to date are out

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Postby Dr. Nick » Tue May 10, 2016 5:47 pm

If I may make a fairly radical suggestion as a TV translator, there should be three subtitle versions instead of two: "Standard" should be as it is, "Honorifics" should be as it is but without the notes, and a third ("Annotated"?) version should be the exact same thing your "Honorifics" version is currently. Sensible subbers don't use on-screen notes at all because there's simply not enough time for the eye and the brain to process the information. Even a tiniest of annotation, especially if placed on a top corner, will draw the eye to itself, eating away valuable milliseconds. You just can't annotate a video the same way you would annotate a book if the subtitle track is meant for general viewing. A separate annotated sub track would obviously be for in-depth analysis instead of general viewing, so that's why I'm suggesting splitting it three ways.

You clearly have the right idea about the notes in that you're using an external document for them, but you could also connect the document better with the video by including the time codes of each of the commented lines, perhaps even with a screencap showing the line in its native context.

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Re: The newest most accurate EoE subs to date are out

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Postby sephirotic » Wed May 11, 2016 5:47 pm

View Original PostDr. Nick wrote:If I may make a fairly radical suggestion as a TV translator, there should be three subtitle versions instead of two: "Standard" should be as it is, "Honorifics" should be as it is but without the notes, and a third ("Annotated"?) version should be the exact same thing your "Honorifics" version is currently. Sensible subbers don't use on-screen notes at all because there's simply not enough time for the eye and the brain to process the information. Even a tiniest of annotation, especially if placed on a top corner, will draw the eye to itself, eating away valuable milliseconds. You just can't annotate a video the same way you would annotate a book if the subtitle track is meant for general viewing. A separate annotated sub track would obviously be for in-depth analysis instead of general viewing, so that's why I'm suggesting splitting it three ways.

You clearly have the right idea about the notes in that you're using an external document for them, but you could also connect the document better with the video by including the time codes of each of the commented lines, perhaps even with a screencap showing the line in its native context.


Thank you for your input, Dr. Nick.
But I'll respectfully disagree.
I'll explain why.
I agree that Translation Notes and top lines are counter-productive because they interfere with the attention of the viewer detracting from the experience of watching. However, this is only the case if the person in question is not expecting top lines. You may get surprised by a [1] popping up on the center left top corner of the video and miss the line indeed ON THE VERY FIRST TIME it happens, but after that, you got used "ow yeah, that is just a reference mark" and learn to ignore it. The "default" subtitle on my release wiil be the "standard", so for most casual watches, it won't even be a issue. If you ACTIVELY decide to switch for the Honorifics one, you should then already be expecting to have top lines which can't really be read at the same time anyway. And differently from Television, you can actually pause and rewind very easily when watching on the computer if you wish.
Even so, if some people absolutely can't ignore it, them they could always shift back to the "standard" subtitle and forget about the honorifics anyway. The amount of honorifics in the movie is actually quite small.

I think I'll add the timecodes of the lines quoted on the external .doc like you suggested, tough.
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Re: The newest most accurate EoE subs to date are out

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Postby Dr. Nick » Wed May 11, 2016 6:32 pm

Well, eye tracking is to a large degree involuntary, so that's why good subbers try to keep the amount extra stimuli to an absolute minimum. But you make a perfectly valid point about using the "Standard" track as the normal movie viewing track, so it was overzealous of me to suggest a third track. In my defense, it's been many years since I last saw the movie, so I had no recollection of the amount of honorifics in it. You've clearly been thinking these things through, and I wish you all the best with your project.

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Re: The newest most accurate EoE subs to date are out

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Postby sephirotic » Wed May 11, 2016 8:32 pm

View Original PostDr. Nick wrote:Well, eye tracking is to a large degree involuntary, so that's why good subbers try to keep the amount extra stimuli to an absolute minimum. But you make a perfectly valid point about using the "Standard" track as the normal movie viewing track, so it was overzealous of me to suggest a third track. In my defense, it's been many years since I last saw the movie, so I had no recollection of the amount of honorifics in it. You've clearly been thinking these things through, and I wish you all the best with your project.


Thank for your input, nevertheless.

By the way, since you mentioned you work professionally with Television subs, what do you think of background lines in the "Standard" subtitle such as this:

Image

I also watch subtitled movies all the time on the cinema and television here, and I noticed they often omit background lines that sometimes are important for the story.
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Re: The newest most accurate EoE subs to date are out

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Postby Reichu » Wed May 11, 2016 10:56 pm

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:"And now, it has been restored to the embryo of all living beings, the Tree of Life."
Instead of "embryo of life" to avoid repetition.

But is "all living beings" what they actually mean here by "inochi"? Wouldn't Fuyutsuki say "subete no inochi" if that were the intention? The repetition isn't ideal, but I wouldn't want to be so zealous about avoiding it that new misconceptions are created.
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Re: The newest most accurate EoE subs to date are out

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Postby sephirotic » Wed May 11, 2016 11:17 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:But is "all living beings" what they actually mean here by "inochi"? Wouldn't Fuyutsuki say "subete no inochi" if that were the intention? The repetition isn't ideal, but I wouldn't want to be so zealous about avoiding it that new misconceptions are created.


I had a pretty long discussion regarding this line with pwhodges. Both of us consider it too ugly and bady style to keep life repeated so close together. And regarding the importance of the "embryo of life" I think is batter to just paste my discussion with him here instead:

SPOILER: Show
pwhodges wrote:It may be literal, but for me it doesn't work well. An "embryo" is the early stage of a single specific organism, not of a class of existence, and "embryo of life" in this context strikes me as a (slight) solecism. Is the meaning of the Japanese precisely "embryo? - in which case we may be up against the different handling of number (singular/plural) in the two languages.

I am happy with "living beings" or "living things" rather than repeating "life". I am not so happy with embryo; on a scale from "embryo" to "source" I would place the following words:

embryo / germ / antecedent / source.

For me only "embryo" doesn't work, and I would be happy with either of "...restored to the germ/antecedent of living things, the Tree of Life" (I can see reason to prefer "antecedent" to "source").
(...)
This is why Bochan_bird used "propagule", I imagine. Propagule is a little-used technical term for the means of distribution of a type of organism, and so expresses more precisely the meaning that I suppose the Japanese carries. However, in spite of having some background in biology, and a wide vocabulary in general, I have never met the word other than in those subs! So I don't think it is acceptable for the common public. And "souls" is surely just wrong.


Sephirotic wrote:Originally when checking the Kanji of that line, I also felt it was unnatural and just another pompous way to say "source", in fact, 2 out of 3 subs translates like that.
Unfortunately, "taiga" means primary "embryo", but while digging individual kanji meanings, I found where bochan got the "propagule" from:

Code: Select all

零余子 (nukago)
1. bulbil (esp. of a Japanese yam); propagule; brood bud (Usually written using kana alone)


Obviously, propagule and "bulbil" are not correct choices of translation, heck, "propagule" is not even from the same word and is a specific botanic term. (same issue with "germ")
So our idea of just translating to the meaning INFERRED from "embryo"; SOURCE was the most reasonable adaptation, however, Reichu point is valid, because 5 minutes earlier, Fuyutsuki refereed to the Black Moon as "seimei no minamoto".

Code: Select all

Minamoto: 源 1. source; origin

And seimei is "life form", while "inochi" is life.

So we have Lilith's Egg being called "The Source of life forms", and the Tree of Life being called "The Embryo of (All?) Life".

The big question is: Are those two sentences just differentiated for stylistic purposes, or does "embryo" carry another meaning? Because by itself, doesn't make much sense.

From what we could understand through these years, the Tree of Life may be the "Original" life form (what our god might be, the "FAR", in the Evaverse) that spawned all Seeds of Life (such as Lillith and Adam) through the galaxy. While the black moon is just the "source of all human(earthly) life".

Considering all that, it would make MORE SENSE to call the egg of Lilith an embryo (it's a bloody egg after all!!) of life forms, and the Three of life a "source of all life". Yet it's completely the opposite. it's a true mess, indeed.
I honestly don't know what to do, I feel it may be an "irresponsible" choice, translation wise, to use the same word for both "embryo and source", but all this speculation strikes me as a waste of time and effort.


Truth is, nothing makes much sense, they are all buzzwords, the mechanics will NEVER be 100% clear and logical, thus we might as well translate them literal and shift the confusion feeling and the need of making some f* sense out of all of it to the viewer, anyway. Wasn't that Anno's intention in using all those weird words in the first place?

I'll just put a translation note mentioning the phrase is ambiguous, [explaining the literal words] and that It has a different connotation than the "egg of lilith" one and call it a day.


pwhodges wrote:On "embryo": I think on reflection that I can accept "embryo of all living things". It's not natural; but as you say, the whole mechanics is rather contrived anyway, and the "all living things" is sufficient to break the usual singular specificity of the word "embryo".

The conclusion is that stylistically speaking, repeating "life" is unacceptable and the underlying meaning of that sentence can't really be fully understood by the viewer. If one really wants to try and dig down the meaning of it, then he would start by looking at the translation notes, where I will explain all of that.

EDIT:
Alternatively I was thinking about keeping the "Standard" and "Honorifc" versions of the subs different, the standard with the stylistic acceptable line (living beings) but with living beings in italic, indicating is not an accurate term, and the honorific with the repetition of life, thus on the notes I'd explain that the repetition was necessary to preserve the correct nuance of the original term.
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Re: The newest most accurate EoE subs to date are out

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Postby Reichu » Wed May 11, 2016 11:41 pm

Could just use a common literary trick and have him say, "the tree, the embryo, of life". Substitute commas with dashes if desired. This achieves repetition without actually repeating anything.
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Re: The newest most accurate EoE subs to date are out

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Postby sephirotic » Wed May 11, 2016 11:49 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Could just use a common literary trick and have him say, "the tree, the embryo, of life". Substitute commas with dashes if desired. This achieves repetition without actually repeating anything.


Hmmm, I don't like this alternative. The "Tree of Life" is a very important concept in EoE and its full name referencing to the Kabbalah would be masked that way. It's the only time in the whole series that the Sephiroticum is declared by name. It should have an exclusive red font emblazing it instead!

By the way, our alternative was "ALL LIVING THINGS" instead of "BEINGS". Which somehow gets closer to the meaning of the word "life".

There are 2 alternatives too, first one is try maintaining the repeated "life", but constructing the phrase to pull the two words away from each other. Such as:
"The embryo of life, Unit 01 has now been restored to the Tree of Life."
The italic helps to reveal that this was a literal choice.
Still doesn't sound much good, though.
And the last alternative is to change "Tree of Life" into "Etz haChayim" (its hebrew name) or possibly, "Sephiroticum", which is the name of the system itself that the Tree of Lifeis composed. Once again, a translation note WILL be required to guide the user in knowing where the hell did these buzzwords come from. I think is just easier to explain in the translation notes that "living beings" was a stylistic alternative to "life" which is the most correct term.

I'm open to more suggestions. A vote could also be useful, why not? So here you are:
http://www.strawpoll.me/10192474
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Re: The newest most accurate EoE subs to date are out

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Postby Dr. Nick » Sun May 15, 2016 8:45 pm

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:By the way, since you mentioned you work professionally with Television subs, what do you think of background lines in the "Standard" subtitle such as this:


Background jargon gets a case-by-case treatment. TV translation always entails information loss, and the more fast-paced a scene is, the more likely it is for the jargon to be sacrificed. It's all about preserving the most important information and not overwhelming the viewer, keeping in mind the eye-brain cognition bottleneck. The screencapped example scene is obviously not fast-paced and the "no more than two lines" rule is not violated, so there's no overriding reason not to translate the background babble. The line positioning could be a little iffy in theory, since when one line is placed on the top and the other on the bottom, the eye has to track a longer distance across the screen. But then again, this positioning makes it clear that the background babble is clearly entirely separate from the primary dialogue, so there are pros and cons either way. If the viewer has a basic understanding of standard subtitling practices, they should know that the line on the bottom is the most important one and something to be focused on first.

It needs to be pointed out that whatever software modern fansubbers use to create their subtitles, their toolkits are vastly more versatile than the extremely rudimentary (but ideally also robust) programs used in commercial subtitling, especially in television. That's why it should be technically easier for fansubbers to create crafty workarounds for making their translations more readable and less distracting. (The ideal is to make the translation essentially invisible, so that the audience doesn't actively notice its presence; it should work much like a skilled butler works.) That's why it's deeply ironic that when the fansubbers first found out about the possibilities offered by this technology in the late nineties and early oughties, they used their newfound power for maximum distraction.

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Re: The newest most accurate EoE subs to date are out

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Postby Reichu » Sun May 15, 2016 11:23 pm

sephirotic: I'm still confused as to where you're getting "ALL living beings" from. Inochi doesn't refer to "living beings", let alone all of them. It refers to "life", as in "a life", that thing that starts when you're born and ends when you die. Inochi no taiga could thus be more fluently read as "vital/living embryo" (as opposed to... a miscarriage? buh?). But if that's still no good, an alternative comes to mind: Ending the phrase with "taru" creates, AFAIK, a sort of old-timey feeling that might be possible to replicate by using Latin -- which would be, here, vitae embryonis.
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Re: The newest most accurate EoE subs to date are out

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Postby Bagheera » Mon May 16, 2016 3:58 pm

For what it's worth:

I can't really weigh in on the Japanese here, since I don't speak the language, but I think it might be helpful to consider what the various objects in question actually represent in-universe. To me the Black Moon isn't a source in a generative sense, so much as simply a place where everything once was. All of the souls on Earth were once housed within the black moon, so it is their source in the same way that a city is a source of people. It doesn't actually create anything, but it houses them.

Yui, by contrast, was becoming an embryo of life. Here I think it's helpful to consider that Adam and Lilith are called "Seeds/Sources of Life", i.e. they actually do create life. It is not just that they are home to things that later emerge so much as they give souls form and substance, giving birth to life in the most literal sense. Yui is in the process of becoming such a being, but she is not there yet -- hence she is an embryo (because she has not yet matured) of life (since she is becoming a literal source of life). Fuyutsuki's line thus becomes:

"And now, it has been restored to the source of all living beings, the Embryo of Life." I don't know if that quite follows from the Japanese, but it's the way I've made it all fit in my mind.

(and how can one be restored to an embryonic state? It doesn't follow, until you remember that Unit 01 is a clone. But once it merged with Adam it was able to become a "living" Source of Life, or at least a being with such potential. Hence, restoration).
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Re: The newest most accurate EoE subs to date are out

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Postby sephirotic » Mon May 16, 2016 7:11 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:sephirotic: I'm still confused as to where you're getting "ALL living beings" from. Inochi doesn't refer to "living beings", let alone all of them. It refers to "life", as in "a life", that thing that starts when you're born and ends when you die. Inochi no taiga could thus be more fluently read as "vital/living embryo" (as opposed to... a miscarriage? buh?). But if that's still no good, an alternative comes to mind: Ending the phrase with "taru" creates, AFAIK, a sort of old-timey feeling that might be possible to replicate by using Latin -- which would be, here, vitae embryonis.

I was going to enter in a further semantic discussion with you, Reichu. "Inochi, seimei, life", all have similar meanings, and although they can mean symbolically "being alive", the meaning you suggested, it doesn't really is restricted to just that, is it? e.g. "Life is florishing in the Amazon" do you interpret symbolically as the "metaphysical state of ones being alive" or "literal living beings, like plants, mammals, insects and bacteria"? It has both meanings, but when used in an broaden term, it usually has a plural connotation referring to living beings. We even have an example in the very same 26', when Yui later says: "subete no seimei ni wa, fukungen shiouto suruka ga aru" Meaning, literally, as you know: "All life has the power to restore itself". Now, are you going to say here, that "life" doesn't refer to living beings? Each single animal/humans? That It just refers to the "symbolic metaphysical state of ones body being alive"? Unless you can prove me that "inochi" in Japanese has a different strict meaning than English or even Portuguese, for that matter, I don't really buy that, In fact, the following word, "embryo" gives a strong PHYSICAL indication that the life it generates, is not just "metaphysical". Your new alternative "vital embryo", has a another issue, for me, I'm not sure in English, but afaik, it has also the same principal meaning as it has in Portuguese; Vital means "Essential, of crucial importance", even tough it derives from vitae, which means, well, life. So it could cause confusion. Also, "living embryo" doesn't change the original meaning too much? It is "inochi no taiga" not "ikiteru taiga". However, I'd like you to continue reading, as I may have a new take in the matter that may help wrap everything up in the end:

I was further researching about the "Guf" and stumbled with a new take on the mythology involving the Tree of Life. Every time I searched about the tree of life, I ended up reading about the Sephiroticum system, and them assumed it was the same metaphysical entity with all the Sephiras, an "emotional" path to god, etc, etc. But now, in the page of Guf, I found a very interesting less abstract explanation of WHAT the Tree of Life really is, its importance and its relationship with "Guf":

View Original PostWikipedia wrote:According to Jewish mythology, in the Garden of Eden there is a Tree of life or the "Tree of Souls:[1] that blossoms and produces new souls, which fall into the Guf, the "Treasury of Souls". Gabriel reaches into the treasury and takes out the first soul that comes into his hand. Then Lailah, the Angel of Conception, watches over the embryo until it is born.

According to Rabbi Isaac Luria, the trees are resting places for souls and sparrows can see the soul's descent, explaining their joyous chirping. The Tree of Souls produces all the souls that have ever existed, or will ever exist. When the last soul descends, the world will come to an end.[2] According to the Talmud, Yevamot 62a, is that the Messiah will not come until the Guf is emptied of all its souls.


Now it all makes sense, It became obvious that these terms extracted from Kabbalah were read by Anno in a similar way that was described in here.

There is MORE THAN A SINGLE TREE OF LIFE. I mistakenly always thought it was unique, because Fuyutsuki calls it "equivalent to god". I thought he was literally saying that the Tree of Life was actually the Far. No, he was just referring to the ability of creating life/SOULS from nothing. Now the translation of bochan_bird seems much more correct. He altered "life" to "souls" very intelligently. In this case, it was LITERALLY the souls which were created by the Tree of Life and thus stored on the Chamber of Guf. Fuyutsuki was explaining it, that the Tree of Life has the ability to create Souls. It also now makes sense as why it entered inside the GNR, it has a strictly relationship with the Black Moon, It gave the power for the GNR to OPEN the Chamber of Guf. I now believe, that the junction of GNR + Tree of Life, is now the direct equivalent to GOD, or the FAR. Not just the Tree of Life or Lilith + Adam.

With all that considered. I'm completely comfortable in changing one of both words "inochi" by "soul" (Another translation of Tree of Life is actually Tree of Soul!). It won't be wrong or inaccurate. I prefer to keep "Tree of Life", is more traditional and easier to understand and relate to, and then just change "embryo of life" to "embryo of souls". But the opposite could also be done.

What do you guys think?

Bagheera wrote:For what it's worth:
I can't really weigh in on the Japanese here, since I don't speak the language, but I think it might be helpful to consider what the various objects in question actually represent in-universe. To me the Black Moon isn't a source in a generative sense, so much as simply a place where everything once was. All of the souls on Earth were once housed within the black moon, so it is their source in the same way that a city is a source of people. It doesn't actually create anything, but it houses them.

Correct.

Yui, by contrast, was becoming an embryo of life. Here I think it's helpful to consider that Adam and Lilith are called "Seeds/Sources of Life", i.e. they actually do create life.

you are now confusing things. As I've just explained and we all knew, Adam and Lilith are just holders of their eggs traveling the galaxy for seeding life into new planets. They don't create souls, they just SEED the souls. It is the souls that define their own bodies.

Yui is in the process of becoming such a being, but she is not there yet -- hence she is an embryo (because she has not yet matured) of life (since she is becoming a literal source of life). Fuyutsuki's line thus becomes:

You forgot about the crucial term that Fuyutsuki uses: "Seimei no ki", which is a direct quote to the Kabbalah and the original reason for all this debate in the first place:

生命の樹 (seimei no ki)
1. Tree of life (Kabbalah)See also Tree of life (disambiguation) for other meanings of the term. The Tree of Life, or Etz haChayim (עץ החיים) in Hebrew, is a mystical symbol used in the Kabbalah of esoteric Judaism to describe the path to God (usually referred to as HaShem, or "The Name", in kabbalistic texts) and the manner in which he created the world ex nihilo. Kabbalists developed this concept into a full model of reality, using the tree to depict a map of Creation.


This is the main issue of the translation, as "embryo of life" and "Tree of life" in the same sentence would sound ugly and be stylistic unacceptable by repeating "life". Thus, understanding what the heck Fuyutsuki meant with those terms was crucial, now I finally think I understand with my previous explanation.
Last edited by sephirotic on Mon May 16, 2016 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The newest most accurate EoE subs to date are out

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Postby Bagheera » Mon May 16, 2016 8:04 pm

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:What you guys think?


I think you're being too literal, and somewhat missing out on what's happening. AFAIK there is no indication the Seeds of Life could create souls, and every indication that they were carrying souls from one location to another. What we see of GNR is proof of that: there is never any act of creation there, just the question of what form the souls will take. And to that end:

you are now confusing things.


I think you misunderstood. I was not saying that the Seeds create souls, but that they create life -- that is, they give the souls bodies to inhabit. In retrospect that was clumsily worded on my part, sorry about that. My intent there was that the Seeds do not just carry souls from one place to another, but that they also give form and substance to those souls once they arrive at their destination. It is in this sense that they "create life".

You forgot about the crucial term that Fuyutsuki uses: "Seimei no ki", which is a direct quote to the Kabbalah and the original reason for all this debate in the first place:


That's actually quite helpful for my case, at least IMO. We all know Anno likes to play with religious terms and symbolism, but we also know that symbolism is, at best, repurposed. It never retains its original meaning in the context of the show. Looking at what's happening to Yui at that point, there is one term in that definition I find to be quite striking: "the path to God." As soon as Yui got the S2 we heard Seele talking about making a god, about forbidden unions, and so on and so forth. What we see is that talk bearing fruit: Yui is an embryo of life, and she is walking the path to godhood, i.e. to becoming a Seed. Hence the Tree of Life imagery. We then see a demonstration of her power, as she releases the Lilin's souls from the Black Moon and gives them the opportunity to create bodies from nothing. That fits what you describe perfectly, while still being something completely different and very Eva.

This is the main issue of the translation, as "embryo of life" and "Tree of life" in the same sentence would sound ungly and be stylistic unnaceptable repeating the "life". Thus, understanding what the heck Fuyutsuki meant with that was crucial, now I finally think I understand with my previous explanation.


I don't see how what you describe would fit with what's actually happening to Yui, though. And, moreover, I don't even know what an embryo of souls is. But my main issue with this, as I said above, is that you now seem to think the Yui/Lance/GNR conglomerate can create souls from nothing, when we never see any evidence in the show that anything of the sort is actually happening. I think you're barking up the wrong tree here.
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Re: The newest most accurate EoE subs to date are out

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Postby sephirotic » Mon May 16, 2016 9:27 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I think you're being too literal,

By chosing "embryo of souls"?
You want to adapt it even more?! But ambiguous terms that can hardly ever really be understood can't really be adapted! That's the issue! Reichu wanted to be even more literal than me!
By the way, you never gave us a translation suggestion for that line after I pointed you that Fuyutsuki actually said "Tree of Life"!

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I think (...) [you're] missing out on what's happening. AFAIK there is no indication the Seeds of Life could create souls, and every indication that they were carrying souls from one location to another. What we see of GNR is proof of that: there is never any act of creation there, just the question of what form the souls will take. And to that end:

I think you misunderstood. I was not saying that the Seeds create souls, but that they create life -- that is, they give the souls bodies to inhabit. In retrospect that was clumsily worded on my part, sorry about that. My intent there was that the Seeds do not just carry souls from one place to another, but that they also give form and substance to those souls once they arrive at their destination. It is in this sense that they "create life".

I never said that Seeds of Life create souls!
I agree that the main purpose of Adam and Lilith is the transportation of Souls.
But saying that "they don't create souls, but create life" Isn't kinda of splitting hairs, here? In Eva, the Souls are the essence of life, the souls themselves are life and they define their own bodily shape "alone". When they tried to clone more Reis, "the room of Guf was empty", meaning the Reis didn't "develop" souls, and thus, they were never really human lives. The spare clones of Rei may have bodily function, but they can hardly be called "alive", at least in Eva terms.
Furthermore, part of the confusion may have been the fact that I said the "the Tree of Life created all the souls for Adam and Lilith to carry" but I forgot to mention I was referring to THE ORIGINAL Tree of Life, from the FAR origins, not the new one "reverted" from Unit 01.
And when I said you made confusion, was also when you said that "Yui"(Unit 01) was becoming an "embryo of life", like the Seed of lifes which are Adam and Lilith. That doesn't make sense as embryo of life refers to the WHOLE TREE OF LIFE SYSTEM, not to Unit 01 or to a Seed of Life such as Adam or Lilith. For an being be considered a Seed of life, it must carry an egg full of souls, Unit 01 doesn't have one such thing. Nor it has the souls needed to spray around, neither do the Tree of Life which has a different function. You were confusing these distinct concepts.

Anyway, I know all what I'm saying is debatable, and that it's semantics, but it's not the kinda of semantics relevant to the specific line I was trying to improve.
That's actually quite helpful for my case, at least IMO. We all know Anno likes to play with religious terms and symbolism, but we also know that symbolism is, at best, repurposed. It never retains its original meaning in the context of the show.

I agree, but my whole point in the previous post is trying to say that, at least in this specific concept of "embryo of life", "life" was actually referring to souls, human lives, not anything else, and that the Tree of Life and chamber of Guf, have quite similar functions (not identical) to the original mythology they were based of.

Looking at what's happening to Yui at that point, there is one term in that definition I find to be quite striking: "the path to God." As soon as Yui got the S2 we heard Seele talking about making a god, about forbidden unions, and so on and so forth.

You keep calling Unit 01, Yui, which is very confusing. (Yes, I know that Evas are "humans" and that Eva Unit 01 is basically Yui in a new body, but that still creates confusion when talking about mechanics involving Unit 01 as an entity, not as a person). Regarding Seele calling Unit 01 a God as early as episode 20, it's NOT DUE TO THE ABILITY TO CREATE LIFE, but simply unlimited uncontrolled power acquired just recently with the S2 engine. Context is very important in this case. The "forbidden union" is just a pompous way to say that Human will/knowledge was never meant to be paired with infinite power.

What we see is that talk bearing fruit: Yui is an embryo of life,

Why is Yui/Unit 01(?) an embryo of life and at which point? (the correct answer is: When Unit 01 and Shinji become the Tree of life. Not before nor after GNR-Tree-Unit 01 is reverted to regular unit 01) This statement of yours is very vague for me. Once again, what does "embryo of life" means? PER SEE this concept is vague and almost meaningless. Strictly speaking, an embryo or a fetus is an undeveloped, immature animal. Symbolically speaking, an embryo is something that is pending to become something complete, mature. Stretching the definition, "embryo of life" could mean a "SINGLE source of life" but we could hardly infer this BY ITSELF, that it could mean a SPAWN/CREATOR of life, now, can we? Truth is, the term "EMBRYO" is almost completely an empty meaningless technobable, a buzzword at this point. My focus is still more with the word "LIFE".

Then comes that explanation of WHAT THE TREE OF LIFE ACTUALLY IS AND ITS FUNCTION in Judaic mythology, it makes some sense in understanding what do the Tree of life does: It creates souls and put/drop them into Guf, thus,it creates life, more specifically, HUMAN LIFE. So, now we can insert this idea on the concept of "embryo of life" without messing with the weird word "embryo" and only then, can we infer that it means "creates life", more specifically, human lives.
and she is walking the path to godhood, i.e. to becoming a Seed.

I think you are mixing different time people refer to Eva as "god" together. She is walking the path to become IMMORTAL, not a Seed. During the final talk between Fuyutsuki and Yui, when she says that the final objective of the Eva, is becoming a God, she is referring not to become a seed of life, but just, to be imortal and have an immense power, thus existing forever, thus proving the existence of mankind, THAT'S IT.. She can't really spawn life without the full mechanics from the FAR and the SoL. A Chamber of Guf full of souls in the Eva mechanics is supposedly required. Souls are complex entities that can't really be created easily.

Hence the Tree of Life imagery. We then see a demonstration of her power, as she releases the Lilin's souls from the Black Moon and gives them the opportunity to create bodies from nothing. That fits what you describe perfectly, while still being something completely different and very Eva.

Ok, we agree at this point, but I failed to see your point.

I don't see how what you describe would fit with what's actually happening to Yui,

I'll assume you are referring to Unit 01.
The issue here is that we are drifting apart from the main issue: How to properly translate "And now it has become the embryo of life, the Tree of life" Which is 100% literal, to something still "correct" and stylistically acceptable. To do that, we must understand what does "embryo of life" means, and what is "The tree of life". I have provided explanation for both of that in the original Judaic Mythology, and the explanation seems to fit very well with the Eva mechanics. In this case, it seems that "life" doesn't refer literally to all forms of life in the universe, or like Reichu suggested: metaphysical state of "being alive". It refers strictly to the ability to create human lives, more specifically, human souls. That's the point. Even tough "inochi" doesn't mean in a dictionary "soul" (tamashi, kokoro), in this specific case, we can swap the words and definitions maintaining the CORRECT MECHANIC EXPLANATION of what the hell is the function of the Tree of Life without needing to keep a literal, ambiguous and ugly translation "the embryo of life, the Tree of life".

though. And, moreover, I don't even know what an embryo of souls is.

That was the point of my earlier post, trying to make some sense out of it. By itself, "embryo of life" makes not much sense, but by understanding the Kabbalah mythology, it becomes clearer. The choice of "taiga" (embryo) for Fuyutsuki's line was an unhappy one. I have got the feeling that Anno either wanted to keep things ambiguous, or he didn't think or get the mythology quite right, and adapted the words to Japanese in a not very good way to try avoiding a literal explicit explanation such as: "the creator of souls" "魂の創造者". I'm not suggesting to "fix it" an make it "clearer", mind you, this would be not respecting the original work, I'm just saying that at least the word "life" we could adapt to another term that given our understanding of what it refers, it is not wrong or changing the definitions.

But my main issue with this, as I said above, is that you now seem to think the Yui/Lance/GNR conglomerate can create souls from nothing, when we never see any evidence in the show that anything of the sort is actually happening.

Yes, after reading the proper definitions of Tree of Life, Chamber of Guf, and taking in account Fuyutsuki lines and the almost infinite power of the S2 engine, I believe she COULD create souls and is the exact same mechanism used by the FAR. However, this is just my personal hypothesis, I NEVER ACTUALLY SAID THIS HAPPENS in the EoE, and I agree it doesn't, because it isn't the point of the Instrumentality. The point was merging the already existing souls into one. No point in creating more.
This then of course brings a new question: "if the purpose of the Tree of Life is to create new souls like you said, and that it didn't needed to occur in the Third Impact, then what was the point in resurrecting it?" The anwer is: It's likely not the only ability of it. The Tree of life may likely have an intrinsic relationship with the Chamber of Guf, literally, the Egg of Lilith. Maybe only it could have the power to reinsert the souls back into the Egg. We can't really tell.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree here.

With all due respect, I think you were the one that lost the focus on the linguistic discussion and dragged it too much offtopic into the fanwank realm of trying to understand what happened during the third impact. You didn't even give a translation suggestion on your last post, even if you don't know Japanese, I would at least have expected you to check the transliteration and the sentences suggestion preserving the "Tree of Life" term that Fuyutsuki used. That would have been better than just extending the discussion tangentially. Not trying to attack you here, just making a constructive critic about the approach of the matter in discussion.

I enjoy discussing about the mechanics of the Third Impact myself, but this is not the point of this thread and I tried to keep the fanwank restricted to the function of the Tree of Life. Let's go back to the point: Our different fanwanks regarding the mechanisms of the Third Impact should be restricted into finding a good adaptation for "the embryo of life, the Tree of Life".

I repeat, considering the Judaic Mythology, since the purpose of the Tree of Life is creating souls (maybe managing the chamber of Guf so they can enter it), then I believe is acceptable to change to "embryo of souls".

Yes, I agree that embryo of souls doesn't make much sense either, but that is not up to us anymore, it's up to the viewer to do their own research and try to figure it out what the hell did Fuyutsuki meant by that. I'll, of course, add a translation note explaining the change from "life" to "soul" and a brief explanation about the function of the Tree of Life in the kabbalah as well as the stylistic reason for changing it.

By the way, since this was a long post, I have only reviewed the text once. I'd probably need to proofread it 4 or 5 times for correcting all the English mistakes I could find, please excuse me for the mistakes, but I think the text is still clear enough, if not, please to tell me what sentences ended confusing so I could further improve myself expressing in English.
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Re: The newest most accurate EoE subs to date are out

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Postby pwhodges » Tue May 17, 2016 3:30 am

I have to defer to y'all on matters of translation, and comment only on the expression of the meaning(s) that appear to have been extracted from this.

If "soul" is acceptable here (as Bochan_Bird clearly felt) that does make it easier to phrase things clearly. But as for "embryo" - it may be a literal translation of the Japanese, but in English (which we are attempting to write here) its use to indicate an early stage of life (in the abstract sense) or even of a soul is clearly unidiomatic to the point of being confusing. Thus I have a clear preference for exchanging that for a word which carries what we hope is the intended meaning - in this case "source" (or possibly "origin" or "antecedent"). I also feel that "restore" earlier in the sentence has a slight ambiguity, in that it could mean "to place back in" as well as "to become again", so I'll suggest changing that. Finally, it occurs to me that any slight ambiguity over the relationship between the Tree of Life and the "embryo of life" or however it ends up is lessened by rearranging the sentence slightly, so I suggest:

"And now it has become once more* the Tree of Life, the source of souls**."

I should comment that I value immediacy of comprehension over literal translation in a case like this, not least because in the context of subtitles most people will see the sentence for only a couple of seconds and if it requires them to contemplate it longer to extract some coherent meaning, that meaning is lost (as few will go back to think about it).

* "Again" would be fine, but I felt that "once more" fitted the ritual feeling of the event better.
** I also considered "the origin of being", but decided that the more straightforward phrase was preferable for the reasons given.
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Re: The newest most accurate EoE subs to date are out

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Postby Bagheera » Tue May 17, 2016 11:46 am

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:By the way, you never gave us a translation suggestion for that line after I pointed you that Fuyutsuki actually said "Tree of Life"!


Sorry, I wasn't trying to be difficult. As I said, I don't know Japanese and so can't help with translations per se. All I'm trying to do here is make sense of them in light of what appears to be happening in the scenes in question.

But saying that "they don't create souls, but create life" Isn't kinda of splitting hairs, here?


In any other context I would agree, but in Eva souls are a very separate matter from living things. We see in the show that people who died can come back to life, and likewise that people who are reduced to LCL are effectively dead even though their souls are still intact. So, the state of being alive or dead and the disposition of the soul seem to be separate (though certainly related) matters.

Furthermore, part of the confusion may have been the fact that I said the "the Tree of Life created all the souls for Adam and Lilith to carry" but I forgot to mention I was referring to THE ORIGINAL Tree of Life, from the FAR origins, not the new one "reverted" from Unit 01.


I am not sure such a thing exists.

And when I said you made confusion, was also when you said that "Yui"(Unit 01) was becoming an "embryo of life", like the Seed of lifes which are Adam and Lilith. That doesn't make sense as embryo of life refers to the WHOLE TREE OF LIFE SYSTEM, not to Unit 01 or to a Seed of Life such as Adam or Lilith. For an being be considered a Seed of life, it must carry an egg full of souls, Unit 01 doesn't have one such thing. Nor it has the souls needed to spray around, neither do the Tree of Life which has a different function. You were confusing these distinct concepts.


But remember that Adam and Lilith are still considered Seeds/Sources of Life even after their Chamber/s of Guf are empty, so I think it's reasonable to suggest that Yui might be considered a Seed/Source of Life even though hers is not yet filled.

You keep calling Unit 01, Yui, which is very confusing. (Yes, I know that Evas are "humans" and that Eva Unit 01 is basically Yui in a new body, but that still creates confusion when talking about mechanics involving Unit 01 as an entity, not as a person).


I apologize for the confusion. I call Unit 01 Yui at that point because she's showing agency and orchestrating events in the story rather than being a passive vehicle, so it makes sense (to me) to identify her as a person rather than a cybernetic weapon.

Why is Yui/Unit 01(?) an embryo of life and at which point? (the correct answer is: When Unit 01 and Shinji become the Tree of life. Not before nor after GNR-Tree-Unit 01 is reverted to regular unit 01) This statement of yours is very vague for me. Once again, what does "embryo of life" means? PER SEE this concept is vague and almost meaningless. Strictly speaking, an embryo or a fetus is an undeveloped, immature animal. Symbolically speaking, an embryo is something that is pending to become something complete, mature. Stretching the definition, "embryo of life" could mean a "SINGLE source of life" but we could hardly infer this BY ITSELF, that it could mean a SPAWN/CREATOR of life, now, can we? Truth is, the term "EMBRYO" is almost completely an empty meaningless technobable, a buzzword at this point. My focus is still more with the word "LIFE".


To me the Embryo of Life is metaphorical, and is referring to the fact that Yui/Unit 01 is being transformed into a Seed/Source of Life. As I said, a Seed/Source of Life is emblematic of life itself, so a being that is being transformed into one (but has not yet completed the process) is necessarily in an embryonic/transitional state. I think that is the only meaning of the Tree of Life, and that it has no purpose either in the show or in the backstory of the FAR beyond that.

The issue here is that we are drifting apart from the main issue: How to properly translate "And now it has become the embryo of life, the Tree of life" Which is 100% literal, to something still "correct" and stylistically acceptable. To do that, we must understand what does "embryo of life" means, and what is "The tree of life". I have provided explanation for both of that in the original Judaic Mythology, and the explanation seems to fit very well with the Eva mechanics. In this case, it seems that "life" doesn't refer literally to all forms of life in the universe, or like Reichu suggested: metaphysical state of "being alive". It refers strictly to the ability to create human lives, more specifically, human souls. That's the point. Even tough "inochi" doesn't mean in a dictionary "soul" (tamashi, kokoro), in this specific case, we can swap the words and definitions maintaining the CORRECT MECHANIC EXPLANATION of what the hell is the function of the Tree of Life without needing to keep a literal, ambiguous and ugly translation "the embryo of life, the Tree of life".


Isn't that a leap, though? Doesn't that require assuming a very specific reading of the Tree of Life and its significance in the show, one that is not actually substantiated in the show? In the description you provided the Tree of Life was the path to godhood, and gods in this context are beings like Adam and Lilith -- neither of whom create souls. It is in fact true that we have no indication that souls in the Eva setting are or were ever created, but we do know that Adam created the bodies of the Angels and that Lilith created the Lilin. Becoming a being who can fashion physical forms for souls to inhabit would seem to be sufficient to fit the description in an Eva context, and I'd be cautious about reading more into the significance of the term than necessary.

That was the point of my earlier post, trying to make some sense out of it. By itself, "embryo of life" makes not much sense, but by understanding the Kabbalah mythology, it becomes clearer. The choice of "taiga" (embryo) for Fuyutsuki's line was an unhappy one. I have got the feeling that Anno either wanted to keep things ambiguous, or he didn't think or get the mythology quite right, and adapted the words to Japanese in a not very good way to try avoiding a literal explicit explanation such as: "the creator of souls" "魂の創造者". I'm not suggesting to "fix it" an make it "clearer", mind you, this would be not respecting the original work, I'm just saying that at least the word "life" we could adapt to another term that given our understanding of what it refers, it is not wrong or changing the definitions.


I don't know how much Anno actually understood about the terms he used, but I do know that he chooses his terms very deliberately and that he uses them to convey a great deal of information in a very limited time. In this case I think he might have been trying to tell us something about the process of Unit 01/Yui's transformation without derailing the rest of the story (and he might have played his cards a bit too close to the vest there, given how difficult it is to puzzle things out even for native speakers). What I really can't shake here is the fact that "embryo" is a very specific term, and that Unit 01/Yui is unquestionably transformed by the events unfolding. I don't think that's a coincidence (and I'm not suggesting you do, I'm just trying to explain my thinking here).

Yes, after reading the proper definitions of Tree of Life, Chamber of Guf, and taking in account Fuyutsuki lines and the almost infinite power of the S2 engine, I believe she COULD create souls and is the exact same mechanism used by the FAR. However, this is just my personal hypothesis, I NEVER ACTUALLY SAID THIS HAPPENS in the EoE, and I agree it doesn't, because it isn't the point of the Instrumentality. The point was merging the already existing souls into one. No point in creating more.


I do not think Unit 01/Yui gains the power to create souls, and as I said above I don't think that even the FAR had such an ability. I also think that there were at least three separate scenarios overlapping in 3I, and that that creates a lot of confusion for viewers. I think Yui's transformation is unrelated to Instrumentality, and that both are only tangentially related to 3I (which I would describe as the unfolding of the anti-ATF around the globe and the excavation of the Black Moon; Instrumentality came after, but was a separate process, and Yui's transformation was an altogether different matter). This is of course just my interpretation of events, but given that I don't see any need to bring creation of souls into the equation.

With all due respect, I think you were the one that lost the focus on the linguistic discussion and dragged it too much offtopic into the fanwank realm of trying to understand what happened during the third impact.


Well, look at it this way: the point of having dialogue in a show is to describe what is going on, right? And so, to translate it, we need to have some idea as to what is going on so that we can choose English terms and idioms that accurately reflect that. But the problem is that what's actually going on is very confusing, and is very open to interpretation. So, some assumptions have to be made before we can even begin to agree about whether or not a given term fits what is going on (e.g. if I'm completely wrong about Yui's transformation being unrelated to 3I and Instrumentality then my whole rationale for using Embryo of Life as a term instead of Tree of Life goes out the window. So this is less about fanwank than interpretation, and figuring out how to express the line in question in light of that).

I repeat, considering the Judaic Mythology, since the purpose of the Tree of Life is creating souls (maybe managing the chamber of Guf so they can enter it), then I believe is acceptable to change to "embryo of souls".


My main objection to this is that it doesn't convey anything to the viewer, and that I feel it creates needless confusion by being overly tied to the concept of the Tree of Life in Judaic mythology. "Embryo of Life" is both accurate and meaningful, so I would prefer that translation (particularly since I disagree with the notion that the ability to create souls is in play -- this is why I said interpretation is so important above, and why it's hard to avoid some discussion of what's happening in the show when considering how to translate terms).

So, in light of all of that, and given the fact that "seimei no ki" and "taiga" are very specific terms that should be rendered appropriately to convey the intended meaning, I get the following:

"And now, it has been restored to the Tree of Life, the Embryo of Life."

Yes, that sounds clunky in English, but I think the alternatives supplied thus far drastically change the meaning. "Tree of Life" cannot be altered (that was my mistake earlier), but nor should "embryo" given its specific meaning and that fact that "taiga" is not the term used for Source/Seed of Life. Yui has not become a source of souls, as she's currently in a transitional state. I believe the term chosen should reflect that. If the repetition is absolutely unacceptable then I think Reichu was on the right track, which would leave us with something like this:

"And now it has been restored to the Tree of Life, the vitae embryonis."

But regardless the sense that we are seeing a transformation at work, the transformation of a work of man into a god, should come through. I feel that is the essential meaning behind using the terms "Tree of Life" and "embryo" in that sentence.
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Re: The newest most accurate EoE subs to date are out

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Postby Reichu » Tue May 17, 2016 12:51 pm

I don't necessarily agree with Bagheera's interpretation of the phrase, but I too am wary about transforming it beyond recognition. "Embryo", for instance, is much more evocative than the already overused "source", as it paints a clear image of something alive that is capable of developing into a more mature form. "Souls", on the other hand, is much more specific than inochi, particularly in the context of Eva, where they are a known quantity and not just a vague metaphysical concept.

If you go with something like "source of souls", certain interpretations that might make sense of what's happening are necessarily cut off. Just to demonstrate, and not to argue for any particular truth: it recently occurred to me that this whole Tree of Life business might actually refer to Eva-01's status as the ultimate recipient of humanity's complemented souls (something that is made a bit more clear in NGE2). The Tree of Life presents the path by which humanity can "unify with god" -- which, here, means becoming one within a vessel that is equivalent to a god. "Embryo of (a) life", then, refers to Eva-01's potential for transforming into this new Singular Being.

Probably the biggest monkey wrench for me here isn't Tree of Life or inochi no taiga, but Fuyutsuki's assertion that Eva-01 is being "reduced" to them. The Spear of Longinus has been added to the mix, so how on Earth is the result reductive rather than, er, productive? And I'm pretty sure Eva-01 has never been core-fucked by the Spear of Longinus to make a big fancy red tree before.

Anyway... Give me some more time and I'll find another troublesome phrase in the script to torture everyone with.
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