Why I Don't Like Mari

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Why I Don't Like Mari

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:33 pm

View Original PostKouzou wrote:Again, we will see, but my theory is well funded here :)


None of your theorizing here is well-founded. Every time you say "probably" or "likely" or "almost certainly" or anything similar it's code for "I am completely making this up, just trust me." But a careful reading of the show will quickly show that there is no reason to believe any of it. Would it kill you to dial back the rhetoric and discuss the actual show rather than a bunch of wild speculation that has no bearing on anything we've seen?
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Why I Don't Like Mari

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Postby Kendrix » Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:17 pm

View Original PostKouzou wrote: I know all about maturation rates, and her age is a mystery, but I also know what is the norm and what is exaggerated. Asuka and Rei are realistic...usually lol And although Misato and Ritusko's bust are above average for where they would normally be, it isn't too far fetched. But Mari's body fat allocation is very concentrated on her bust and bottom. Realistically, for that body fat %, barring extreme exception in genetics, some of it would go to her thighs and hips and stomach. It is simple directional stability in evolution and nutrition.


You DO see some on her things & bottom, tho (See how she climbs )

I'm part hispanic and had boobage even larger than Mari ever since age 14, so it's a bit hard not to take this whole "large boobs & eccentric personality = joke" a bit personally...

Same for "optimistic, present-focussed personality = shallow & meaningless", though that doesn't affect me personality.

View Original PostKouzou wrote:Women have more sensitive noses than men, and as with all things different about a female versus male with primates, this is related towards safety for a child; nurturing and child rearing.


Not to the point of being that fixated on it; Not all women go around sniffing people, nor has Mari ever been associated with motherly traits, it seems pretty clear that it's intended to be animalistic;

The drafts had Mari displaying some affinity toward animals, even in the finished script she calls Shinji a "puppy", makes the occasional cat noise, uts her EVA into "monster mode" and stares longingly at a flock of birds.It's really straightforward enough. The animal traits could simply be a symbolic underlining of Mari's lack of inhibitions.


View Original PostKouzou wrote:I get what you want out of her. You like the female warrior thing not as its intended sexual fetish for the young adult to adult male demographic, but as a symbol for feminism. I get the Western perspective. But that perspective is based in sexual fetish as a primary. See Aatalanta, Artemis, Athena, all the way to Wonder Woman(made by a classic studiest who had SNM fantasies and 2 wives basically).


Lol. I bet you would not have written this if I was a dude, this is like, so random? Including the random militarism rant, like WTF? Of course "warrior" in the stylized sense isn't quite the same as "soldier", that's much more of an organized team player/orders follower, and no a desirable thing to be, really. That the Children are not really qualified for the job and hat the conditioning NERV puts them under is horrible is sort of part of the point.
Same with Maya: She is there to provide a normal, non-desensitized Person's POV, and the whole point of Rei is about the struggle of findin human wamrth and meaning despite conditioning.

This is NOT about what I or anyone else wants out of her; "fearless born warrior" is how the only official character bio we have describes her. Also that Saakamoto interview about how Anno described her as having a WII era stiff upper lip attitude of sorts. Can we not look at what sort of character she is without bringing her gender in it where it doesn't apply? I did not do that, you did.

View Original PostKouzou wrote:Men like warrior women in the short term for fantasies, but it is a woman's nurturing self and ability to augment and care that wins the long run. Same with men in terms of extremes. Girls don't go for guys like Kaworu in the long run, they go for Kaji. Guys go for Rei or a more settled Asuka or Ritsuko, not Mari, normal Asuka, or modern Maya.


This is so dehumanizing. How about guys & girls go for whatever the heck is compatible with their personality? In my experience there is no one thing anyone goes for, what once person hates can be another one's "HELL YES!"

Plus this is really shortselling Rei's warrior quality & determination.


As for the EVA 13 thing:

Kaworu tried to stop it; It didn't work. I don't think that implies he was in control before, just that two pilots works slightly better than one, but not enough so to completely stop the impact.

But it's very clear from the script that it was at very least a joint effort by the two/ Mari's contribution was at least as significant as Kaworu's.

View Original PostKouzou wrote:4. Mari is a modern day servant in a degrading status having no choice over matters but following orders (she is Asuka's lap dog currently, we saw this throughout 3.0). Is she angry, aggressive, overbearing, self righteous, and fan service? Yep, my ad hominem against her stands :) S


That overlooks... so many things. ie, Misato would put Asuka in charge because she probably rusts her more, Asuka cares more about being boss... it's very clear that Mari knows a lot more than anyone else - tellingly, she was the only person besides Kaworu to realize that they were all being played by Gendo, constantly drops cryptic references etc.
Who knows how much she's told WILLE? Though more due to her whimsical nature than any subversive intent.

Also? How is she angry or overbearing in any way? All we've seen of her shows her to be all nonchalant, chill and relative accepting (ie, all her talks with Shinji. In 2.0 she left it up to him wether to go back or not/ didn't judge him for his indecision; In 3.0 she's understandably telling him not to get played anymore but is one of the very few characters who treats him the same as before/ talks to/about him like a normal person.)

Also, why does a character have to be so agressively "for" certain segment or purpose? Can't they be enjoyed from multiple perspectives?
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Re: Why I Don't Like Mari

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:35 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote: That overlooks... so many things. ie, Misato would put Asuka in charge because she probably rusts her more, Asuka cares more about being boss...

Asuka's also more experienced and outranks Mari. Makes perfect sense that she's the team leader.
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Re: Why I Don't Like Mari

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Postby Kouzou » Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:58 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:None of your theorizing here is well-founded. Every time you say "probably" or "likely" or "almost certainly" or anything similar it's code for "I am completely making this up, just trust me." But a careful reading of the show will quickly show that there is no reason to believe any of it. Would it kill you to dial back the rhetoric and discuss the actual show rather than a bunch of wild speculation that has no bearing on anything we've seen?

1. Logic is an appeal to a generalization. The is what language does. You encode and decode. Why do you think Scientists use the word theory a lot and law little? Until there is absolute proof, you focus on what has the most evidence, the core theory. Evolution has the largest body of evidence. Is there perhaps some Teology involved involving the sequencers? Probrably, but there is not evidence to prove this yet, so it stays out of the theory core.
2. A careful reader? You assume I am unfamiliar with the series, movies, or Rebuilds? Anno leaves a lot up to the audience. And others, like Satsukawa, better or worse, along with producers, have contributed. But it is Anno's brain child, and especially now, he has the final say. I am discussing the actual show. Mari did NOT exist in the original series. She is Rebuild only. She does not have as many scenes, dialogue, and is based in her sexual appeal more when shown by percentage in the Rebuilds. Rei is the reason he almost(and kind of) caused 3rd Impact. Asuka improved herself to try and win Shinji, wanting him to be happy and win all of him. Misato is defined more by dealing with Shinji than even with Kaji or the rest. Gendo is all about not just Yui, but how it relates to Shinji. All Mari does is come on to him alittle, and is the random wild card. Nothing she has done is unique or only able to be provided by her. We can just get the voice of the audience from Maya again in terms of emotion, and the voice of info dumps from Misato and Ritsuko again. Mari is fan service. *drops mike*
Yui Ikari: Anywhere can be paradise as long as you have the will to live. After all, you are alive, so you will always have the chance to be happy. As long as the Sun, the Moon, and the Earth exist, everything will be all right.
Kouzou Fuyutsuki: When Man created Evangelion, were we trying to create a clone of God?Yui Ikari: Of course. Humans can only exist on this Earth. But the Evangelion will be able to exist forever, along with the human soul that dwells within it. When the Earth, the Moon and the Sun are all gone, EVA will exist, so long as one person remains. It'll be lonely, but as long as one person still lives...Kouzou Fuyutsuki: ...it will be eternal proof that Mankind ever existed.

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Re: Why I Don't Like Mari

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Postby Kouzou » Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:27 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:You DO see some on her things & bottom, tho (See how she climbs )

I'm part hispanic and had boobage even larger than Mari ever since age 14, so it's a bit hard not to take this whole "large boobs & eccentric personality = joke" a bit personally...

Same for "optimistic, present-focussed personality = shallow & meaningless", though that doesn't affect me personality.



Not to the point of being that fixated on it; Not all women go around sniffing people, nor has Mari ever been associated with motherly traits, it seems pretty clear that it's intended to be animalistic;

The drafts had Mari displaying some affinity toward animals, even in the finished script she calls Shinji a "puppy", makes the occasional cat noise, uts her EVA into "monster mode" and stares longingly at a flock of birds.It's really straightforward enough. The animal traits could simply be a symbolic underlining of Mari's lack of inhibitions.




Lol. I bet you would not have written this if I was a dude, this is like, so random? Including the random militarism rant, like WTF? Of course "warrior" in the stylized sense isn't quite the same as "soldier", that's much more of an organized team player/orders follower, and no a desirable thing to be, really. That the Children are not really qualified for the job and hat the conditioning NERV puts them under is horrible is sort of part of the point.
Same with Maya: She is there to provide a normal, non-desensitized Person's POV, and the whole point of Rei is about the struggle of findin human wamrth and meaning despite conditioning.

This is NOT about what I or anyone else wants out of her; "fearless born warrior" is how the only official character bio we have describes her. Also that Saakamoto interview about how Anno described her as having a WII era stiff upper lip attitude of sorts. Can we not look at what sort of character she is without bringing her gender in it where it doesn't apply? I did not do that, you did.



This is so dehumanizing. How about guys & girls go for whatever the heck is compatible with their personality? In my experience there is no one thing anyone goes for, what once person hates can be another one's "HELL YES!"

Plus this is really shortselling Rei's warrior quality & determination.


As for the EVA 13 thing:

Kaworu tried to stop it; It didn't work. I don't think that implies he was in control before, just that two pilots works slightly better than one, but not enough so to completely stop the impact.

But it's very clear from the script that it was at very least a joint effort by the two/ Mari's contribution was at least as significant as Kaworu's.



That overlooks... so many things. ie, Misato would put Asuka in charge because she probably rusts her more, Asuka cares more about being boss... it's very clear that Mari knows a lot more than anyone else - tellingly, she was the only person besides Kaworu to realize that they were all being played by Gendo, constantly drops cryptic references etc.
Who knows how much she's told WILLE? Though more due to her whimsical nature than any subversive intent.

Also? How is she angry or overbearing in any way? All we've seen of her shows her to be all nonchalant, chill and relative accepting (ie, all her talks with Shinji. In 2.0 she left it up to him wether to go back or not/ didn't judge him for his indecision; In 3.0 she's understandably telling him not to get played anymore but is one of the very few characters who treats him the same as before/ talks to/about him like a normal person.)

Also, why does a character have to be so agressively "for" certain segment or purpose? Can't they be enjoyed from multiple perspectives?

Almost missed your rebuttal. Here we go.
1. As I expected, you see yourself in her. HOWEVER, are you in exquisite shape and the boob size is a result of somehow being very large and firm like Mari's is without fat, or is the size due to be overweight? Not trying to offend, but fat girls get very large boobs because the body has to place it somewhere. It is very rare for a girl to have a body type like Mari's, or even a full grown woman(which is why Kate Upton is so popular, because she is rare). Mari's body type is not a norm, and therefore I submit that it is intentional to sexually arouse men. Most women can't have breasts that large and still be so thin elsewhere. This is genetic fact. Hispanic has nothing to do with large breasts. Hispanic is a varied ethnic group(Nixon administration needed a term for historically related to spain and the native central and south americans mixed with Europeans, Africans, Moors, etc...). Even with perfect nutrition, Mari's breasts are unique in proportion to her thin body. It is rare this happens, thus fan service. Before obesity skyrocked, even 30 years ago the average was 34B. It has risen due to indulgence, not evolution.
2. Mari isn't optimistic, she is manic. See beast mode. lol
3. Women have more sensitive noses naturally on average. Anno seized this into a plot point and made her more animalistic. She is a female dog being in heat or going fetch. Most women don't go around sniffing, true, which is also why this uniqueness makes her a fetish girl, thus fan service.
4. The writing process is constant revision and toying with ideas. Virtually every product you see undergoes enormous revision till it is a canon final product. F. Scott Fitzegerald, also influenced by his turbulent marriage with Zelda, took 3 years to write The Great Gatsby, albeit alcoholism did slow him too.
5. Warrior ethos is what established soldiers. Egypt had a standing Army. Mesopotamia didn't. Which lasted longer? :) There are 4 ancient professions with Oaths: Doctors, Lawyers, Clergymen, and Soldiers. There has always been War, and thus always soldiers since organization through discipline, obeying practicality when able, gets results. You win, reproduce more, bam, victory. History defined by the winners.
6. They are not actually CHILDREN. :) They are biologically adults, and even mentally they understand murder, death, sex, theft, etc... You can limit them in the modern day with few rights, but they are young adults. Adolescence is the great lie of the 20th Century. 13 and up, you are an adult. Experience and SES define you, as well as your nature giving you your potential. How it is tapped is nurture and choice. Shinji has seen more combat than most anyone in the military today. I say let him have a paycheck, retirement plan, sex and even a wife. He is a man. Asuka, even before the 3rd movie, was a woman. Rei is the only one in debate mentally but she is partially Lilith, so I must say she can consent to sex or killing too.
7. Anno loves romanticizing WWII, as this was the last major war Japan was very important in(they have had a hand on a small scale through supplies, and even some for a while soldiers(JSSDF)in Iraq.... long story...). However, Mari is based on an ideal, not an average of what women thought or did then or now.
8. How is it clear from the script? Mari isn't making a key choice or convincing Shinji to do anything. She just does stuff as told and enjoys it. Who influences Shinji to make a choice is who is significant.
9. Men and women have different aptitudes and interests, albeit there are exceptions. Biology doesn't lie though. Men have far more physical potential than women for most athletic pursuits, and being Infantry in combat is about as athletic as it gets. When you factor in how more vulnerable women are to disease via declining hygiene, maintain muscle more poorly and favor fat to create life, can get pregnant usually, have weaker bones thus more prone to fractures and breaks, affect the mentality of the mainstream which is male, voices carry to far when wounded, far more likely to be abused and raped by the enemy or their own people,etc... There is going to be some amount of gender discrimination. The physical demands of a job, and problems if pregnancy occurs are why it matters. This is a matter for a different thread to discuss in terms of women in combat. Female warriors are not mainstream, thus fan service. I did not want to go this route, but you force me. Mari is not realistic. Non realism=Fan Service usually
10. Mari left it up to him. She did not make an argument one way or another. Again, she is just there. 3.0 she just suggests don't get played. Shinji knows this already. He is always struggling with his own self worth. In the original end of the series, he realized he could be more than what his job is. That limits define us and the bad comes with making the light significant and meaningful(Buddhism, nonpermanence, yep, I'm going to bed).
Yui Ikari: Anywhere can be paradise as long as you have the will to live. After all, you are alive, so you will always have the chance to be happy. As long as the Sun, the Moon, and the Earth exist, everything will be all right.
Kouzou Fuyutsuki: When Man created Evangelion, were we trying to create a clone of God?Yui Ikari: Of course. Humans can only exist on this Earth. But the Evangelion will be able to exist forever, along with the human soul that dwells within it. When the Earth, the Moon and the Sun are all gone, EVA will exist, so long as one person remains. It'll be lonely, but as long as one person still lives...Kouzou Fuyutsuki: ...it will be eternal proof that Mankind ever existed.

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Re: Why I Don't Like Mari

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Postby Reichu » Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:05 am

Dunno if you noticed, Kouzou, but the female Eva pilots aren't actually limited in combat by their poor pathetic female anthropoid ape bodies. They're controlling biological weapons with their minds. And, well, this is fiction, so Anno can do anything he wants. If he shows that female Eva pilots are just as capable as their male counterparts, then they are. You're just revealing your own ugly, regressive lack of vision here -- not anything about the work.

I have a sister whose bust size was still monstrous after she was put through boot camp. She is not walking, talking fan service. She's a person whose genes predisposed her to a particular (and kind of obnoxious) body type. Cynically viewing big-busted female characters as mere jerk-off material (especially in the cases when they're much more than that!) is doing them quite the disservice, and I would say that your seeming inability to conceive of any other reason why they might exist speaks, again, more to your own precariously limited perspective than anything else.
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Re: Why I Don't Like Mari

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:14 am

View Original PostKouzou wrote:2. A careful reader? You assume I am unfamiliar with the series, movies, or Rebuilds?


No, not at all. You demonstrate such, since the things you say just don't hold up under any kind of scrutiny.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Why I Don't Like Mari

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:11 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Cynically viewing big-busted female characters as mere jerk-off material (especially in the cases when they're much more than that!) is doing them quite the disservice, and I would say that your seeming inability to conceive of any other reason why they might exist speaks more to your own precariously limited perspective than anything else.

"But if not for jerks, then why made of boobs?" :tongue:

I'm currently drawing a large cast of characters for a story I want to write and illustrate in some fashion. I found myself making conscious decisions like "The lead female has a normal bust size," and "Her friend, on the other hand, has larger bosoms and hips," simply so that the characters wouldn't look too similar to one another, even as a silhouette. (The male characters get similar treatments. "This dude has huge pecks," and "this dude is a bit chubbier," and so on.) You end up making certain decisions not because of "sex appeal" or whatever, but simply because these characters need to look different from one another. Heck, I even ended up going "Magic School Bus" on the cast by making them racial diverse, and never once mentioned that fact throughout the story as planned so far. They just are, end of story. Sure, some people might find correlations like "Audiences tend to like the character with the bigger boobs more," or "It's nice to have a black character as a smart scientist," or whatever. but it's honestly all there just to make the cast identifiable from the rest of the cast, and I'm trying to make everyone as smart and useful to the story as possible. That's my entire agenda. If you can cheer for or otherwise appreciate certain aspects of these differences in sex, sizes, or racial representation, then I won't stop you. But that wasn't my agenda. It was simply to make the characters visually identifiable.

I mean, if it was all about Mari providing "sex appeal," when you'd have to wonder why Asuka and Rei have also been sexualized as character by both the studio and the fanbase. ("Why does this shot in NGE frame everything around Asuka's bust? I thought that was the purpose of Misato's or Mari's boobs.") I mean, Asuka, Rei, Misato, and Ritsuko have all worn skin-tight outfits in their line of work at Nerv at some point. Sex appeal is a thing in Eva regardless of boob size. Mari's existence neither grants not denies Eva of this sex appeal.

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Re: Why I Don't Like Mari

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Postby Kouzou » Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:39 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Dunno if you noticed, Kouzou, but the female Eva pilots aren't actually limited in combat by their poor pathetic female anthropoid ape bodies. They're controlling biological weapons with their minds. And, well, this is fiction, so Anno can do anything he wants. If he shows that female Eva pilots are just as capable as their male counterparts, then they are. You're just revealing your own ugly, regressive lack of vision here -- not anything about the work.

I have a sister whose bust size was still monstrous after she was put through boot camp. She is not walking, talking fan service. She's a person whose genes predisposed her to a particular (and kind of obnoxious) body type. Cynically viewing big-busted female characters as mere jerk-off material (especially in the cases when they're much more than that!) is doing them quite the disservice, and I would say that your seeming inability to conceive of any other reason why they might exist speaks, again, more to your own precariously limited perspective than anything else.

1. Yes, the tech is doing most of the work, I was talking about how a male holds an advantage in aptitude. Also, the series isn't meant to be realistic in its portrayal of the women in combat scenarios, but rather their mental struggles beyond it.
2. We agree, it is fiction.
3. The Eva pilots aren't though. Shinji and Kaworu are the most successful in doing what they want with the Evas. Their piloting has achieved defeating exterior enemies the most. The second most successful is not Asuka but Rei. Both in the series and rebuilds.
Series=
Shinji(berserks still count as success, since it needed him to achieve it), beats angel 3th,4th,12th,14th(arguably most bada$$ and hostile in series...argueably), 17th(yep, though wether Kaworu lost on purpose with Eva Unit 02 is in question, regardless, the result is a pro for Shinji), oh, and works with Lilith/Rei scenario causing and then ending 3rd Impact in both the series and movies basically.
Shinji and Rei, 5th
Shinji and Misato, Jet Alone
Shinji and Asuka, 6th, 7th, 8th
Shinji, Asuka, Rei, 9th, 10th
Ritsuko, Naoko, and Magi Super Computers, 11th(Yes, that is almost certainly Naoko's brain and with all the bio tech, it makes sense if it had been damaged it could have been repaired from her suicide, so HA to the wiki for evageeks lolz)
Dummy System Rei, 13th(still needed Shinji in it to activate and be present, later this is shown when they can't use it to fight the 14th)
Rei, 15hth(granted with the spear, but being able to use it so well still took skill), 16th(argueably a dry since Rei 2 dies, but then again, what is one death to Rei's many lives? lol)
Best Sinc. Records(Shinji and Kaworu basically tied), Rei has the 2nd best record, Asuka third. Toji presumably 4th, varies, so I am going off average and all time highs.
Asuka, temporary beating of Kaworu Dummy Plug things("Harpies"), temporary, in that they regenerated, probrably to plan, and then proceeded to massacre her lolz

The Rebuilds reflect much the same with Shinji being the only one to have defeated an angel by himself, ever.
4. "lack of vision", "ugly", really? Ad Hominems when I am attacking a fictional female character based on plot so far therein?
5. The exception does not over rule the general, and I doubt her breasts where that large compared to a small body. Secondly, female PT standards are weak sauce for women in the US Military. Check out what they need to max their push ups and run. Check out that women are the reason only the rangers and SF get to use Pull Ups in the army for a score and the women in the marine corp do their "flex arm hangs" lolz That is the Infantry side of me hating granted, but how would you feel getting the same pay while doing far more? And it is Basic for the Army, the other lesser branches call it boot camp and their are differences, especially depending on your future MOS. 11B or 11C, or even 11X, yep, Fort Benning, and you stay there, same platoon, for AIT. Lots of fun, but with the lots and little fun. Except throwing Grenades and such, plus shooting :)

@Bagheera How about you simply make a point rather than saying essentially "no, you are wrong you big meanie" and avoid ad hominems against me. Attack my argument. Besides, it is unwinnable ultimately. This thread is why the guy doesn't like Mari, and I am in agreement with him on most points in also not liking Mari(beyond her sex appeal and slight uniqueness).

@FreakyFilmFan4ever Strawman Logical Fallacy here. I am not denying any and all sex appeal as either making the other females pointless or that having any makes them just like Mari. I am saying that is pretty much all Mari has shown in comparision. The Rebuilds wanted a new character, so they whipped one up. You could take Mari out of the entire thing and it still would have worked out. Hell, make Kensuke the guy recruited or have Toji secretly be a pilot to then...but they aren't exactly sexy chicks, now are they? :) All the other main women of Eva, even Maya, have depth. Mari's only significant depth is maybe her vagina.
Yui Ikari: Anywhere can be paradise as long as you have the will to live. After all, you are alive, so you will always have the chance to be happy. As long as the Sun, the Moon, and the Earth exist, everything will be all right.
Kouzou Fuyutsuki: When Man created Evangelion, were we trying to create a clone of God?Yui Ikari: Of course. Humans can only exist on this Earth. But the Evangelion will be able to exist forever, along with the human soul that dwells within it. When the Earth, the Moon and the Sun are all gone, EVA will exist, so long as one person remains. It'll be lonely, but as long as one person still lives...Kouzou Fuyutsuki: ...it will be eternal proof that Mankind ever existed.

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Re: Why I Don't Like Mari

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:52 pm

View Original PostKouzou wrote:@Bagheera How about you simply make a point rather than saying essentially "no, you are wrong you big meanie" and avoid ad hominems against me. Attack my argument. Besides, it is unwinnable ultimately. This thread is why the guy doesn't like Mari, and I am in agreement with him on most points in also not liking Mari(beyond her sex appeal and slight uniqueness).


It's not an ad hominem attack. The things you say are at odds with what we are actually shown in the movies, so they come across as uninformed opinions. I am not the only one telling you this, so it might behoove you to rewatch the movies with a bit more care so that you can see what's actually going on.

Or keep playing you against the entire forum, whichever you like. But I think it's a pretty safe bet you aren't gonna make much headway here using your current tactics.
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Why I Don't Like Mari

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Postby Kendrix » Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:20 pm

View Original PostKouzou wrote:3. The Eva pilots aren't though. Shinji and Kaworu are the most successful in doing what they want with the Evas. Their piloting has achieved defeating exterior enemies the most.


Kaworu doesn't count, he's a special case and not even in many battles. Even including him reeks of hamfistedness.

The whole point of the child soldier thing is that they are victims of the system, all three equally. (also kaworu & Touji if you count them.) Asuka is not as aware of it for most of the show, but she's basically worked until she breaks & callously discarded like a broken tool, and it was dawning on her by the end, if she wasn't subconsciously consumed with rage over the unfairness of it all all along. The point is that this is cruel.

If you don't get even that, your understanding of this anime is... pretty shallow. All the episodes where the emphasis was on, "We need to work together to survive?" instead of the whole "glorious hero" mentality? And of course the underlying motif of human cooperation/coexistence itself which all of the pilots have probs with in their own way.

It is true that Shinji is "a natural" in some ways, if all he had to do with the EVa is move it around, he'd be a champ, but as for fighting, the responsibility, the violence, the ethical dilemma's... He doesn't take them very well at all. I mean, his two-proned relationship with his piloting "talent" (in the end not even fully his own archievement, because he has a fully compatible soul in his EVA rather than just a fragment) is pretty much a central point, on the one hand it alienates him from others, means he's expected to put himself through pain & fulfill certain duties, has to suffer, gives other's control over him... but it's also a reason for others to pay attention to him, for him to feel like his existence matters, a complex push-pull dynamic of powerlessness and power. To oversimply that like this is to overlook one of the most central plot threads of the show.

And Mari is a contrast figure in the light of all the above, because she owns her pilot-ness at least attitude wise; In the end, they're ALL being played by Gendo just about equally, Shinji is just the one Gendo used as the designated trigger piece of his machinery. Even WILLE's actions are "within expected parameters".
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Re: Why I Don't Like Mari

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:24 am

View Original PostKouzou wrote:The Rebuilds reflect much the same with Shinji being the only one to have defeated an angel by himself, ever.

Asuka: Clockiel; Mari: Tunniel.
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Re: Why I Don't Like Mari

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:52 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Asuka: Clockiel; Mari: Tunniel.


Yeah, the only Angel Shinji defeated all by his lonesome in the new movies is the 5th (aka Shamshel in the original show). The 4th doesn't really count since he was unconscious at the time, and the 10th . . . well, if you lose your humanity and trigger an Impact to "win" I don't think that can really be called a win. I would actually say the girls are ahead of him in terms of piloting ability come Q, if Mari's marksmanship and Asuka's command of her Eva in general are anything to go by.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Why I Don't Like Mari

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Postby Sachi » Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:52 am

View Original PostKouzou wrote:1. Yes, the tech is doing most of the work, I was talking about how a male holds an advantage in aptitude.

...

3. The Eva pilots aren't though. Shinji and Kaworu are the most successful in doing what they want with the Evas. Their piloting has achieved defeating exterior enemies the most. The second most successful is not Asuka but Rei. Both in the series and rebuilds.

If we're talking NGE, then it should be noted that Shinji was advantaged with a superior Eva (Unit-01 being a spawn of Lilith, rather than a clone of Adam). Perhaps a similar case in Rebuild, except Unit-01 being one of the four ADAMs, rather than a regular Eva like Unit-02.

Kaworu's angelic nature needs to be taken into consideration for his piloting ability in both NGE and in Rebuild. He also has zero success rate other than taking down the Awakened Unit-01. :kaworusparkle:

As has been pointed out, both Asuka and Mari have each taken down an Angel on their own. Asuka was in freefall, no less, and she swept it with skill and grace. For Mari, she successfully destroyed the Angel and achieved her goal of sabotaging Unit-05 (hell, she or Kaji probably let the damn Angel out of containment in the first place). Basically, all the pilots are equal, with their own unique advantages (except for Toji; Toji sucks).
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Re: Why I Don't Like Mari

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:00 am

Mari also kills ~8 of the Code 4As and Asuka kills the Vessel of the Adams, which had just crippled Wunder single-handedly. She had to sacrifice Unit 02 because of those shitty batteries, but she had the upper hand that whole fight.
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Re: Why I Don't Like Mari

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Postby Kouzou » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:44 pm

@Bagheera If you are going to question my knowledge of the plot of Eva, then how about you actually list a canon fact(s) instead of just essentially saying ,"No, you are wrong. You are either too uninformed in you careless multiple watching over the years of Eva, or too stupid to have a proper opinion." The arrogance in such a thing. You want me to attack you, fine. How about YOU actually watch the show, extrapolate the data, and make an argument, or was any type of argumentative based research beyond you? You realize History and Language Arts classes are all about= get the jist of the data, interpret, make an argument for and/or against this opinion or that. Clearly, your education has thus far failed you, or you lack the capacity to grow from anything that has helped you. How about you stop living by proxy via Mari and do something in your life. Also, not counting Shinji's Eva going berserk is pointless, as part of the talent of all the pilots save MAYBE Rei, is opening up to the Eva's soul(their mother) to allow the Eva to use its full power against the enemy/have the Eva protect the pilot.

@Kendrix How about you stop being all socialist, feminist, typical German girl? How about you get the hell out of my demographic? Eva is not for women, that is the truth. There. I said it, now fuck yourself ;) I'll just have to live with my "shallow understanding" while your almighty desire of Shinji and Kaworu to fuck each other in the ass continues, cause surely that is what straight males Anno and Satsukawa wanted. Oh wait, nope, I have done the research on the June interviews. You have big boobs. Congrats, you can related to Mari. Except you can't because the chances of not being fat but having breasts that large and firm, are about as high as Germany moving away from socialist and cowardly leadership :) Get some nukes so the US doesn't have to welfare your country any more :) Oh, and I'm pretty sure Shinji was full of bloodlust when he knifed the 4th angel and when he smacked into the 14th, you know, the one that owned Asuka ;) Stop making excuses about Shinji's sync ratios saving him. He is the one who chooses the pilot with far less training or gain than the others. No one is more disrespected or used than Shinji in the entire series. His push pull thing is well established, but it doesn't underline his talent or your confirmation bias. Mari is a whore who simply knows she is a whore and using whore logic takes pride in it :D

@pwhodges Nope. Good try though. Asuka was aided and airborned dropped, plus given access to special equipment Shinji had never had. And the Angel she defeated was among the weakest, and with help. Shinji had nothing but a progressive knife and little training, and still beat the 4th in the original and rebuilds. As for Mari, the angel had already been reduced to a skeleton and was far weaker than its original self. However, you have made a good point in that I need to be clear on the semantics. Defeating is using your Eva to destroy the Angel in a your Eva survives, the angel dies, the angel was not wounded prior to the bout, you didn't have help, in terms of a one on one. Shinji does this, and does this lone by comparision. His talent is part of the reason he becomes consumed by his successes and failures as his self worth is controlled by this until Episode 26 of the original series(and perhaps argueably EoE.). I thank you for a good use of evidence to make a point. Finally someone who backs up what they say, even if I still must conclude it is wrong.

@Sachi I had anticipated this. Yes, Eva has more power technically. But normally Shinji doesn't have access to this until absolutely necessary. Further, Eva too is more advanced in optics and armor, and Rei is being modified all the time and is partially Lilith. Mari also has the advanced tech and armor on her side, plus they all had far more training than Shinji, making his talent that much more apparent in that he is still more successful.

@BlueBasilisk Killing Code 4As with anything like an Eva is like being Cookie Monster and eating cookies :) Asuka's fight with Mark 9 was a draw, both units where destroyed, and she would have lost without the self destruct. I fail to see how she had the upper hand given the extremes she needed to compete with its defense and regeneration. That is like saying Goku had the upper hand against Cell, when he couldn't destroy him at the time, or Vegeta against Fat Buu. No matter how many engagements you do, if you win most of the small aspects of the battle, but lose the battle itself, you still lost.

And THAT, is how you make a post worhty of censure(refering to the earlier, not the later. Be Civil with me and I am with. Don't...indeed) Now then, whether I get banned or not, F it. Time this thread ends so hopefully it gets locked. Sad that so many people take attacks against Mari personally, and view them as attacks from the person against her. What I did in this message is actual attacks against Bagheera and Kendrix. I am tired of being singled out by the mods for actually being against the mainstream on something. Bagheera and Kendrix, stop being super sensitive sisses reporting everything you disagree with. Dueces

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Re: Why I Don't Like Mari

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Postby Neil-T » Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:50 am

I like Mari.

Maybe it's partly because the first Evangelion I ever saw was 2.0 at the cinema. Because of that, Mari was the first character I was introduced to. From that backwards perspective, she's always been part of Evangelion to me, and is 'missing' from NGE.

I like her quirkiness and her baffling lack of a normal sense of fear. I'm not sure she's all right in the head but, then again, she is an Eva pilot. (You don't have to be crazy to pilot an Eva, but it helps!)

I also reckon that some of her appeal as a character in 3.33 gets literally lost in translation. I enjoy her double-act with Asuka for her pun in the Japanese dialogue. Asuka calls for support ("Engo!"), and Mari responds with "Mengo!", which is gomen (Japanese for sorry) with the syllables switched around. It never fails to raise a smile for me!

I still think Mari's relatively minor role in 3.33 is a shame, and not what I was expecting, but then shutting down Fourth Impact is arguably the single biggest contribution of any character in the film.
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Re: Why I Don't Like Mari

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Postby Apox » Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:54 pm

View Original Postrobersora wrote:Now with FLCL2&3 announced, I think everything can happen. After the fourth movie, they need to do something, if they want to keep the money flowing.
And I'm all for it, as long as they don't touch the original series again.


I'm hopeful we get something, they have a 14 year gap and have done some world building apparently. If not a direct prequel, perhaps they abstract itself in to an "alternative universe story" that borrows significant elements from the 14 year gap but doesn't necessary use the finale movie.

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Re: Why I Don't Like Mari

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Postby Illustrious » Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:29 pm

I'm a Mari fan for a number of reasons, in no particular order:

1. She doesn't have the major trauma issues the other characters have. She doesn't need to be babied.
2. She is freshly sarcastic.
3. She unleashed beast mode before anyone else in the movies.
4. She isn't a teenager.
5. She is a mystery.

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Re: Why I Don't Like Mari

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Postby Reichu » Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:25 pm

View Original PostIllustrious wrote:She isn't a teenager.

Could you explain what you mean by this?


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