Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby Kouzou » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:22 pm

Yoshiyuki Sadamoto, working with Anno's idea's and suggestions, came up with the character designs for most of Eva's characters. He does have a little ethos. However, this is Anno's brain child and magnum opus, even when he was doing it as a part of Gainax (a founding member too), and Anno has the final say in virtually all aspects. Satsukawa and Kazuya among others have a great say since they helped with the writing and the later as his apprentice and directing, but in the end, I must hold that Anno, and only Anno and his approved story line that he has worked with and submitted is canon to the Eva verse. The manga's purpose was merely to promote the anime, not to augment the story line or themes. Sadamoto is not without talent(see Rei and Shinji's tea scene for example), but his direction for the characters are simply too inclined to whore to fan service and special interests against Anno's intentions( Kaworu and Shinji being sexual in the manga to a degree as opposed to the atmosphere happening accidently without either character actually being homosexual... see Anno's comments in JUNE as well as his view of Kaworu being the ideal man Shinji wishes he was). Sadamoto is interesting in providing an alternate story that is similar and a different future for the characters, but a character designer is not a director or producer, let alone a writer.
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby NemZ » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:10 pm

No. Each telling of the story is it's own separate thing.
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby Dima » Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:54 am

It should be considered as a separate work. Nothing more.
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby Neil-T » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:07 am

Ooh, interesting topic, Kouzou. Welcome to EvaGeeks! :D

Given Sadamoto's version of how the story ends and how it (sort of) ties in with the beginning of 1.11, there already seems to be the possibility of some kind of connection to the Rebuild continuity.

Add to this the extra story relating to Mari at the end of volume 14 of the manga and how it might connect with some things in 3.33 (the woman in the photo that Fuyutsuki shows Shinji; Mari calling Gendo 'Gendo-kun'; Mari referring to Rei Q's 'original'), and it feels to me like it fits in somehow...
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:50 am

Sadamoto contributed more than just character designs to the original proposal. Still, over the time he wrote the manga he clearly developed his own ideas independently of Anno (though doubtless as colleagues they might have discussed things occasionally - who knows?), and the continuities have to be considered separate - all three: series, manga and Rebuild.

Of course many concepts are still in common, and there is no harm in taking something that is explicit in one canon as one's headcanon in another version, so long as there is nothing that contradicts it - but headcanon it is and remains; nothing can be assumed to be the same unless it is shown to be.

There is only a thin line between headcanon and interpretation of course, as can be seen in the continuing discussions about the two endings to the series under the heading of "concurrency". And indeed, the same applies there - only what is actually seen is canon to each ending, and the rest is interpretation. But since one has to interpret even to get any basic moral out of the work, there's clearly no harm in that!
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby sephirotic » Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:19 pm

No it shouldn't.

The original canonicity is strictly enclosed to The original Episodes 1-26, including the director's cut, and the EoE.

Even Death and Rebirth's rehearsal scene should obviously not considered canonical.

Sadamoto may have contributed with opinions for the char designs, but in the end, the characters are a very personal creation from Anno, and the Manga fails to convey the depth traits and issues of the characters properly. Many changes in the plot involving characters behavior Sadamoto made were of bad taste at best, to utterly hideous at worst. I personally dislike the manga myself.

Rebuild should be considered as a reboot and a different canonicity so far, even tough made by Anno himself.
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby Neil-T » Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:16 am

It's interesting, isn't it, how Anno has practically invited this debate himself by wilfully 'borrowing' aspects of the manga to use in Rebuild (2.22's greater focus on Rei over Asuka, for example).

In reverse, Sadamoto's cameo inclusion of Mari seeks to imply a direct link to Rebuild. It's probably just pure fanbait, though! If it raises the profile of the manga, that can be no bad thing commercially.
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby Kouzou » Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:36 am

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:No it shouldn't.

The original canonicity is strictly enclosed to The original Episodes 1-26, including the director's cut, and the EoE.

Even Death and Rebirth's rehearsal scene should obviously not considered canonical.

Sadamoto may have contributed with opinions for the char designs, but in the end, the characters are a very personal creation from Anno, and the Manga fails to convey the depth traits and issues of the characters properly. Many changes in the plot involving characters behavior Sadamoto made were of bad taste at best, to utterly hideous at worst. I personally dislike the manga myself.

Rebuild should be considered as a reboot and a different canonicity so far, even tough made by Anno himself.

I find myself in full agreement with you, though at least Rei making tea wasn't bad lol The Mari tie in is to me Sadamoto getting a crack at the new character introduced and getting his take on it. Ultimately, we all seem to be in agreement for the most part(save perhaps the diehard yaoi fan girls) that the manga is its own canon. I would like to assert also that the main canon(dominant and trumps the others) and actual story be Anno's vision, and I for one hope that the Rebuild ties in well to the series and EoE, but that means Anno REALLY.....REALLY.....REEEEAAAALLLLYYYYY has his work cut out for him with the final Rebuild film.

And good point, I just don't see how they could have had that rehearsal scene either lol

Also, I would like to say that the best of all of it so far is still EoE. That movie was so epic, in giving the fans most of what they wanted, but in a clever writers realistic twist.
P.S. Yes, Sadamoto did other things and offered advice here and there, but Anno and his producers had the final say, and now, Anno and Anno alone :D
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby Neil-T » Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:18 am

View Original PostKouzou wrote:I for one hope that the Rebuild ties in well to the series and EoE, but that means Anno REALLY.....REALLY.....REEEEAAAALLLLYYYYY has his work cut out for him with the final Rebuild film.


I'm hugely looking forward to this, too.

Throughout Rebuild so far, Kaworu has been dropping hints along the lines of "this has all happened before and will happen again". Whether the four Adams and the four open caskets on the moon when Kaworu awakes at the end of 1.11 is a number specific to Rebuild's own completely self-contained universe, or whether they might suggest how many times this has happened before, we've yet to see.

This could open up the possibility of a sort of 'implied canonicity' linking NGE, Rebuild and perhaps even the manga. What an exciting prospect that'd be!

It wouldn't be the only current Eva material to hint at a link between seemingly separate continuities. Though not related to the topic of the manga, Khara's short film Until You Come To Me from their Japan Animator Expo project has a montage of Asuka, showing her differing versions from both EoE and 3.33.

Anno himself is listed under 'layout' in the credits.
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby Neil-T » Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:17 am

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:Even Death and Rebirth's rehearsal scene should obviously not be considered canonical.


Interestingly, the recently published NGE guidebook Essential Evangelion Chronicle: Side B attempts to paint that scene as canonical, and places it in the timeline "before the Third Angel attacked", "18 months prior to the destruction of the Seventeenth Angel" (page 81).

So that's why Shinji was able to have that vision of Rei in episode 1: they'd already met before!! (I'm joking.)

The book even tries to throw into doubt the actual identity of the quartet, and will only commit to how they "bore an uncanny resemblance to the four Children".
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:01 pm

I took that paragraph as being playful rather than serious.
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:49 am

Death & Rebith is a tough egg to crack. I tried that once, suggesting that D&R and EoE were both of an entirely different canon than NGE, a canon that we never get to fully see. It's a fun idea, but it can get bogged down pretty quickly within the continuity of the films themselves. (Though, to be fair, everything about the last few installments of NGE gets bogged down pretty quickly when it comes to continuity. DC of Ep 24 is a classic example of that.)

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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby mammaluser » Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:52 am

I think that is a separte series but it's like everything else related to eva, it's either placed in alternate universe or it's not canon at all, but for me it's some kind of alternate universe, NGE and EoE lays in one, the rebuilds lay in another one, sadamoto's manga and then the games (specially NGE 2).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4-5MpRz6bQ and for some fans of sadamoto's work here are some alternate endings to the manga c:
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby Reichu » Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:15 pm

View Original Postmammaluser wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4-5MpRz6bQ and for some fans of sadamoto's work here are some alternate endings to the manga c:

For fans of Japanese Photoshops, surely?

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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby mammaluser » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:41 pm

It's up to you if you want to believe that.
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:32 pm

Each incarnation of Eva should be treated as its own separate canon that isn't in continuity with the others. The manga, TV series, and movies all have contradicting elements, plot points or mechanics that can't be reconciled with the other two. Asuka's backstory, for instance. Different in all three.

Mari showing up in the manga is little more than fan service and a fun little egg for people who have watched the movies. She also appeared in ANIMA and actually made her pre-2.0 debut in the Puchi Eva DS.

Western comic books do stuff like this all the time. Alternate takes on the same story over and over again, working in new elements that have been introduced into the franchise since the original telling with tons of nods and winks to fans of the material. Ninja Turtles is a particularly good example of this since it's on its third animated adaptation.
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby Reichu » Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:52 pm

View Original Postmammaluser wrote:It's up to you if you want to believe that.

If it's actually real, then the original publication where the alternate endings appeared shouldn't be difficult to provide. The video, suspiciously, doesn't. Can't be coincidence that the "alternatives" involve little more than alternate dialogue and heads...

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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby mammaluser » Sun Apr 10, 2016 1:40 pm

Sorry i just figured it out :c, but it would have been pretty cool if these were actually real.
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Postby Neil-T » Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:26 am

Damn! I wanted to believe that video, too, mammaluser. :sniffle:
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby Neil-T » Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:52 am

First, apologies for veering off the topic of the manga for a moment here.

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:I took that paragraph as being playful rather than serious.


My own personal view is that, as an encyclopaedia of Neon Genesis-era Eva, the Essential Evangelion Chronicle books aim to cover everything presented to the audience, including the rehearsal scene from Death & Rebirth.

Since it doesn't fit logically into the timeline, the easiest way out for the writers would be just to ignore it, but maybe that would be too easy! So the question becomes how to include it.

The writers must have decided that the best way was to sneak it in through a little vagueness. The finished article is delivered to the reader with a straight face, in my opinion, and is intended to be enigmatic and mysterious.

Of course, behind the scenes, the writers were no doubt very aware of what they were doing and how it might be received by fans. But a bit of controversy is always good fun in Evangelion!
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