at which point were you most angry/frustrated/disappointed with a character

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Postby BC Baron » Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:58 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:The director's cut adds that scene where Asuka's in the bathroom screaming her heart out...

Sometimes I feel sympathy for Asuka, but I must admit that it can be challenging. For example, every time this scene (where she's talking about how much she hates the idea of sharing a bathroom with Shinji and Misato) is brought up, my immediate reaction is usually along the lines of:

"Listen, Asuka, if it really bothers you all that much, I'm fairly certain there are no other residents in that entire apartment complex, so there must be some vacant living quarters nearby which come fully equipped with the latest in state-of-the-art indoor plumbing technology. Perhaps you could make use of those facilities instead. Of course, you would then be responsible for cleaning your own toilet/bathtub if you wish to maintain basic levels of sanitation. Nevertheless, I'm quite confident that you possess all the necessary skills to raid NERV's supply closet for a plunger, bleach-based cleaning products, and all the toilet paper you'd ever need to 'stay in business', as it were."

In this one isolated case at least, I think it's really a question of whether you're interested in solving your problems, or if you'd rather just talk about them.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:10 pm

. . . how long has it been since you dealt with a 13-year-old child (or were one yourself)?
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Postby BC Baron » Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:18 am

^ Well, way back there in my adolescence (when the dinosaurs were just starting to die off), I seem to remember placing a high value on my personal space and privacy. Unfortunately, my family's living quarters were rather modest and we only had the one bathroom. My brother and I shared a bedroom for most of my youth, so I would've been quite eager for any opportunity to have a "Lovely Suite" I could call my own.

I always found it a bit odd that Asuka never submitted an official request for a place somewhere nearby once her synchronization training with Shinji was completed, especially considering how much dirt cheap, empty real estate was readily available. If she elected to move next door, further down the hall from Misato's flat or on another floor of the same building, she would still have the freedom to come back whenever she felt like it for meals or just to hang out and watch TV. It's not as though Misato or Shinji would've seen this as some sort of betrayal and turned their backs on her.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:30 am

That's true enough. And Asuka did rather want to live on her own, and is about as good a case as you can make for an emancipated minor (and we have the precedent of Rei right there in the setting, so . . . ). Bit of a lost opportunity there, I suppose.
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Postby pwhodges » Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:44 am

And Shinji was supposed to be on his own, until Misato stepped in and overrode it.
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Postby xanderkh » Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:24 pm

Makes you wonder what would've happened if they CHOSE to live alone, like Shinji refusing to live with Misato, cause he's used to all his life, or Asuka because of what Baron mentioned.

Would make a nice thought experiment for a fic, but I have a feeling it would've made things worse for them.
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Postby Xxx_Generic Name_Xxx » Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:39 pm

The whole ep. when Shinji was running away from Misato and I said"Shinji, go fucking to Misato you little peace of shit!"
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Postby Guy Nacks » Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:57 am

Hikari blaming and yelling at Shinji for making Asuka "cry" when Rei simply synchs better with him on the Twister game. Hell, even Gendo's engaging of the Dummy System to eviscerate Unit-03 with Toji still inside made more logical sense (as loathsome and anger-inducing in me as it was) seeing as how everyone would have been fucked otherwise since Shinji refused to do anything.
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Postby Sachi » Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:16 am

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:Hikari blaming and yelling at Shinji for making Asuka "cry" when Rei simply synchs better with him on the Twister game.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. So, Asuka insults Shinji for being slow and impossible to work with, which prompts Misato to pair Rei with Shinji instead, and they perform better together, proving that Asuka is the one that is difficult to work with, much to her shame, which causes her to cry and run off, and somehow Shinji is the asshole?

The only explanation is the middle school politics of love and sexual discovery. Being fourteen is strange.
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Postby BC Baron » Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:46 pm

^ This one's sort of a tough call for me. I tend to cut Hikari a great deal of slack, since, in just about every other appearance she made throughout the series, she seemed like such a sweet, kind-hearted individual.

She's responsible enough to handle the role of Class Rep, spends much of her free time cooking for her father and two sisters to help keep their household running smoothly, and possesses the depth to look past the superficial and still find the good in people (even when it comes to Touji, who's fairly skilled at keeping his redeeming qualities safely hidden). Plus, based on the attention she pays to Pen-Pen while visiting Misato's apartment in the "Dance Like You Want to Win" episode, I suspect she's probably quite kind to animals.

These all strike me as rather positive personality traits, so it's hard for me to stay mad at her for expecting Shinji to apologize. I mean, I agree that Asuka was behaving like a bit of a diva in that scene, and according to the transitive property, Hikari was also in the wrong for siding with her. However, she saw that her best friend was upset and cared enough to pull rank on Shinji and encourage him to act and try to defuse the situation (and based on what takes place in the following scene, her quick assessment of Shinji as the only person capable of calming Asuka down, seemed to be pretty much the right call in that situation).

At the end of the day I think Hikari was just trying to demonstrate some loyalty to a friend and, as much as I tend to vigorously defend Shinji from the slings and arrows of outrageous criticism, I still have to give her some credit for doing what she thought was right.
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:44 pm

^Pretty much this. I could be wrong here, but IMO this is a very Japanese scene, and something Americans really aren't equipped to understand. When you view the characters through the lens of individualism Hikari's position doesn't make any sense, but when you view them through the typical Japanese cultural approach to things it's much more comprehensible. The key issue here is not "Shinji did something bad to Asuka" so much as "something bad happened to Asuka on Shinji's watch." Shinji's important to her, and he's an important part of her life, so when something bad happens to her because of him, even if it's not his fault, it falls to him to fix things.

(that said, I realize the above is very culturally monochromatic, and that there are plenty of Japanese out there who would say, "oh, fuck that noise" and reject that entire line of reasoning. But as far as cultural stereotypes go I think there's something to it.)
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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:51 am

I'm sure people have already mentioned this one: Shinji, Eoe, hospital, complete asshole. Other than that, all his whining and his inability to stand up for himself.

Asuka: Pretty much any time she acted like a bitch towards Shinji.

Misato: When she tried to be a pedo and bang Shinji to make him feel better and when she ignored Asuka's pain of her falling sync scores.

Kensuke: Whenever he fanboys hard for the Evangelions, or is taking pervy pictures.

Rei: When she slapped Shinji for bad mouthing his own asshat of a father.

Toji: When he acts like an ignoramus, or is a perv.

Ritsuko: Anytime she talks. :leekspin:
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Postby CommanderFish » Sat Aug 06, 2016 2:06 pm

DarkBluePhoenix wrote:Ritsuko: Anytime she talks. :leekspin:

Did you really hate Ritsuko from day 1? I mean, I know she doesn't treat the pilots very well, but there are other aspects to her character, I think. In other words, is that hyperbole, or do you mean that literally?
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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Sat Aug 06, 2016 3:31 pm

View Original PostCommanderFish wrote:Did you really hate Ritsuko from day 1? I mean, I know she doesn't treat the pilots very well, but there are other aspects to her character, I think. In other words, is that hyperbole, or do you mean that literally?


No, that was what the initial reason why I disliked her. However, after watching the series a few times through, I picked up on a few things.

She's a hypocrite: She says she hates her mother, but acts just like her. Riding the Gendo train, do her mother's exact job at NERV, and in the manga, she choked out Rei II for giving her lip. Add in her working for Wille to destroy NERV essentially ignoring the fact she helped build NERV and the Evangelions, just makes her even more hypocritical. Also her little "everyone is going to die when I press this" bullshit in EoE, her mother's identity as a women says no, while Ritsuko's identity as a woman is trying to fuck over Gendo by destroying his plan.

She's a bitch: She acts cold towards others, even at times towards her best friend Misato. She treats the pilots with little or no respect, considering what they have to do, but she treats Shinji the best out of all of them. She treats Rei like she's a ragdoll, and I don't think she really sees her as a person (spare parts and all) Now I realize her job is to keep the Evas working, but she could have a little compassion, considering she gets to stay inside the base while children fight for humanity, she could turn it down from 11 to like a 5 or 6. She even blew apart all the Rei's in the tank because she was a little mad, and exposed what Rei really was to Shinji.

In essence I disliked her at the beginning, and held out a bit of hope, but as the show went on, she became even more of a dislikeable person, and so, every time I hear her talk in the anime or movies, I tune her out and roll my eyes. I know there are other aspects to her character, like her being sexually abused by SEELE, which is as reprehensible as what Shinji did to Asuka in EoE, but the other aspects of her character, don't make up for her bad qualities, even if she is only living in her mother's shadow.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Aug 06, 2016 3:44 pm

Ritsuko definitely has a compassionate side, which is more evident in the first half of the series and in the episode 21 flashbacks. On some level, she cares about the pilots' well-being, expressing as much directly to Gendo (in a context where putting on airs would serve no function whatsoever). Ritsuko is meant to be a tragic figure, I think. She understands human behavior quite well, but she can't apply that information usefully toward her own life. Her warm and good-humored aspects are unfortunately buried by her lack of respect for herself and the unresolved Mommy and Daddy complexes that drive much of her behavior. She's pitiful and pathetic and NGE wouldn't be what it is without broken people like her.

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Postby CommanderFish » Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:43 am

^I agree with all of this.
And while I can understand most of the "She's a bitch" line of reasoning--although I may not agree with all of it--I find it difficult to view her hypocritical ways with anything more than pity. I mean, treating others apathetically is one thing, but she really has no one but herself to hurt by being a hypocrite. Just like every other character in the show, she's lying to herself in order to protect herself from a harsh truth--for her, it's the truth that while she may hate her mother, she was still influenced by her in some major ways, and that part of the person that she hates so much will always be within her, guiding her life choices (represented by the MAGI and all). Heck, she even dyed her hair blonde in a vain attempt to separate herself from her mother, while her eyebrows stay black--but it seems like you already know this stuff. Personally, I just don't see how this aspect of her character can be approached with anger instead of pity.

To each his own, though. She is a fictional character, after all.

DarkBluePhoenix wrote:...her being sexually abused by SEELE, which is as reprehensible as what Shinji did to Asuka in EoE...

Wait, wouldn't actual sexual abuse be much worse than what Shinji did? I mean, don't get me wrong, what Shinji did was disgusting, (albeit genius from a character perspective, but I digress), but rape is... well it's rape. You can't really equate that to much else.

Also,
DarkBluePhoenix wrote:Riding the Gendo train

Is that an EVAbridged reference?
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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:35 pm

Yes, that is an EVAbridged reference that I have not been able to use, and well, it fit the situation. Thank you for noticing, sir!

CommanderFish wrote:Wait, wouldn't actual sexual abuse be much worse than what Shinji did? I mean, don't get me wrong, what Shinji did was disgusting, (albeit genius from a character perspective, but I digress), but rape is... well it's rape. You can't really equate that to much else.

Now, in my view anyway, seeing as I wasn't clear when I posted before, I view all sexual abuse, no matter what it is, as reprehensible. When you get into saying that this isn't as bad as that it starts to get messy, all sexual abuse is horrible, even if its a drunken mistake or a deliberate act, or a desperate and broken boy's attempt to connect with the girl he covets/loves. That's my view anyway.

I also never mentioned that I did feel sorry for her for being used by Gendo (like her mother) and for how he sent her to SEELE as a piece of meat. I'm not a heartless monster, I just don't feel her good qualities outweigh all the stuff she's done in furthering SEELE's or Gendo's plans for instrumentality. And I think Reichu summed it up best:
Reichu wrote:Ritsuko is meant to be a tragic figure
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Postby silvermoonlight » Mon Aug 08, 2016 5:46 am

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:In essence I disliked her at the beginning, and held out a bit of hope, but as the show went on, she became even more of a dislikeable person, and so, every time I hear her talk in the anime or movies, I tune her out and roll my eyes. I know there are other aspects to her character, like her being sexually abused by SEELE, which is as reprehensible as what Shinji did to Asuka in EoE, but the other aspects of her character, don't make up for her bad qualities, even if she is only living in her mother's shadow.


I agree with a lot of this and I think though its never fully shown Ritsuko is one of these people who was probably very kind hearted once up on a time but over the years she's become deeply ground down by the Nerv system itself and the bad things that have happened to her but rather than rise above Gendo's crap she just gets in deeper and becomes the villain like he is. Also and I know this might be a miner detail but I don't like her coldness towards life in that she says coldly to her grandma in one scene to put her sick cat down yeah I get where she's coming from but its the tone and the way she says it and people in general like there animals and find it hard to put them down.

Also I found the killing of the Rei's in the tank spiteful and horrible and she claims there not alive and they don't feel yet in the manga they all look at her when she put's her hand on the kill switch as if they know there going die and there afraid. Don't get me wrong I hate what Seele did to her and I hate that its in both the anime and manga, because I always felt it was a awful plot device and I hate that female characters are normally on the receiving end of that kind of thing but this I feel is an issue with the writers not so much the character and is best suited to another thread.
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Postby Dildry » Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:14 pm

Shinji during the entire EoE movie

Gendo in the beggining of Evangelion
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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:31 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:@Iuvenal
Fapping with your off-hand is a thing? Sounds crazy to me.

I thought his statement was strange too; I know for sure using the off-hand is a thing for some (heh), but I'm fairly certain it's quite common for people to use their "strong" hand over the off-hand.

For me it's definitely EoE Shinji. Other than jerking off over a comatose girl, it really made no sense to me why he didn't stop making Misato pull him around when he heard that Unit-02 activated and Asuka was okay, even if he was still really depressed and fucked up.


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