End of the manga "Sadamoto's manga"

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Re: End of the manga "Sadamoto's manga"

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Postby Bagheera » Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:44 pm

It's based on the conceit (which I don't share) that Instrumentality somehow alters reality as opposed to simply mashing human souls together into a pile of glop in the Black Moon. It's a popular one fueled by a literal reading of the AU sequence in EoTV, and is further fed by the notion of Quantum Rei (the idea being that Rei has transcended time and space and has received all sorts of wacky powers over spacetime in the process).

I cannot subscribe to the notion since I reject the premise (i.e., I don't believe for a moment that Instrumentality or 3I did anything at all with space and time, nor that Rei or anyone else transcended it), but if you do accept that as a starting point it's not that far-fetched.
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Re: End of the manga "Sadamoto's manga"

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Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:35 pm

Quantum Rei I have zero issue with, but I never understood the whole "Instrumentally changes the fabric of reality" conceit, since it doesn't seem to follow in any way from the fundamental premise and feels like a real non sequitur. Maybe if we actually at any point were privy to a 100% complete Instrumentality, with the soul-blob fully (and irreversibly?) evolved into whatever final form it's supposed to take, I could buy it. God-humans in NGE do have reality-bending powers, and what is the purpose of HIP if not to meld all humanity into one single god. As things stand, however, all the talk about reality during HIP seems to just be about an individual's subjective reality and how changeable it is. Having one's sense of reality challenged seems a logical result of being soul-smashed with the entire human race.

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Re: End of the manga "Sadamoto's manga"

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Postby pwhodges » Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:10 pm

It all depends how literally physical you want instrumentality to be. I find it easier to embrace as a metaphysical construct rather than a peculiar science-fiction physical one.

Of course, you might not even understand what's going through my mind saying that; but I do.
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Re: End of the manga "Sadamoto's manga"

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Postby db84x » Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:16 am

Eva manga have unique taste than its anime counterpart, honestly I one of people who prefer manga version than anime version.

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Re: End of the manga "Sadamoto's manga"

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Postby silvermoonlight » Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:17 am

View Original PostMoap wrote:It's always been my belief that Sadamoto was a big fan or Rei, and not so much a fan of Asuka. There are interviews where he talks about how much he wants to draw Rei, and see Rei cosplayers, he doesnt seem to show the same interest in Asuka. In contrast, Anno doesn't seem to care very much for Rei as a character, saying things like she simply is the darkness lingering in our souls and leaving her entirely out of episodes because he simply forgot about her. So it figures that the two authors would give the two characters different roles in their tellings of the story.

Asuka's role in the manga compared to the anime is shockingly different. In the show its clear she's a lead character and takes a central role next to Shinji from the moment she appears in the show. In contrast, Asuka appears even later in the manga, and is removed from the story entirely after losing to Arael save for later popping up to fight the MPE's and to be saved by Shinji. When I read the manga I also feel like theres no mutual attraction between Asuka and Shinji like there is in the show, most of the teasing scenes between them like Asuka explaining thermal expansion with her breasts and the kiss never happen. Asuka in the manga is almost dehumanized as well when Sadamoto has her explain that she never had a father, a much different dynamic than her father leaving her and her mother early on. Reading the last two books of the manga, all of Asukas moments in third impact are gone and replaced with Rei. In the manga, Asuka is a side character.

I also felt an almost romantic tone between Rei and Shinji during some scenes of third impact in the manga that I found to be a bit out of place and disturbing, but perhaps I was reading too much into things, it certainly seems like Sadamoto is very eager to have a romance between Shinji and some one besides Asuka. I wouldn't say having Rei and Kaworu displace Asuka would makes the manga worse, but like you said, Shinji not having some one to resolve his hedgehog dilemma with certainly does. Sadamoto's final scene in comparison to the final scene of EoE is laughable to me. I found it to be shallow and commercial, I felt like the final chapter of the manga was an advertisement for the rebuild movies, and contained no resolutions.

I love your analogy of Sadamoto not understanding the mind of the original author, I completely agree. Whereas it seems Sadamoto idealizes Rei and Kaworu, I have a feeling Sadamoto didn't understand Asuka at all and just saw her as a bitchy teenage girl.


I also totally agree with this, I finished the manga a few days ago and it really left me wanting, it also felt like the creator was trying to tie up the loose ends and leave all questions answered and I didn't really feel it as one thing I loved about EOE was that there were many unanswered questions. Also the romance element between Shinji/Rei made me kind of uncomfortable along with Asuka being taken in human instrumentality by Kaji, I also felt like in Asuka's case that the creator was trying to do a quick fix on her character which just felt wrong to me as she has so many issues which are similar to Shinji and throwing a love interest like Kaji is not going to fix that (Granted I know its just a Rei taking his form) but it just didn't work for me its like using band aid to fix bullet holes.
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Re: End of the manga "Sadamoto's manga"

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Postby db84x » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:39 am

View Original Postsilvermoonlight wrote:I also totally agree with this, I finished the manga a few days ago and it really left me wanting, it also felt like the creator was trying to tie up the loose ends and leave all questions answered and I didn't really feel it as one thing I loved about EOE was that there were many unanswered questions. Also the romance element between Shinji/Rei made me kind of uncomfortable along with Asuka being taken in human instrumentality by Kaji, I also felt like in Asuka's case that the creator was trying to do a quick fix on her character which just felt wrong to me as she has so many issues which are similar to Shinji and throwing a love interest like Kaji is not going to fix that (Granted I know its just a Rei taking his form) but it just didn't work for me its like using band aid to fix bullet holes.


I just felt anime ending is too forced in favor Asuka despite all of us knew how she hate Shinji, but that was current trend that tsundere must get main hero at all cost. Manga version just neutralized it and made it more acceptable for current generation fans, romance in Eva anime is catalyst for tsundere hate anyway.

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Re: End of the manga "Sadamoto's manga"

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:15 am

View Original Postdb84x wrote:I just felt anime ending is too forced in favor Asuka despite all of us knew how she hate Shinji, but that was current trend that tsundere must get main hero at all cost.


Man. I'm trying to figure out how you worked so much wrong into that one little sentence. It's truly an impressive feat! But anyway, "tsundere" as a concept didn't really exist then. I mean, it did -- the first tsundere character is generally recognized to be Lum from Urusei Yatsura, which was written in the 1970s/1980s -- but the tsundere fad didn't really start in earnest until 2001 or so. Eva didn't have much to do with it since it doesn't really have any tsundere characters (Misato is kinda tsundere with Kaji, but not really, and Asuka's just an all around bad example of the trope).

Manga version just neutralized it and made it more acceptable for current generation fans, romance in Eva anime is catalyst for tsundere hate anyway.


"Current generation", you say? But the current generation has no interest in Sadamoto's manga, as they've been raised on the new movies. I think it's more likely that Sadamoto just made the ending he preferred, since he never really cared for (or understood) Asuka.
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Re: End of the manga "Sadamoto's manga"

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Postby db84x » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:50 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Man. I'm trying to figure out how you worked so much wrong into that one little sentence. It's truly an impressive feat! But anyway, "tsundere" as a concept didn't really exist then. I mean, it did -- the first tsundere character is generally recognized to be Lum from Urusei Yatsura, which was written in the 1970s/1980s -- but the tsundere fad didn't really start in earnest until 2001 or so. Eva didn't have much to do with it since it doesn't really have any tsundere characters (Misato is kinda tsundere with Kaji, but not really, and Asuka's just an all around bad example of the trope).


In past main hero companion must be tsundere despite the story progress

View Original PostBagheera wrote:"Current generation", you say? But the current generation has no interest in Sadamoto's manga, as they've been raised on the new movies. I think it's more likely that Sadamoto just made the ending he preferred, since he never really cared for (or understood) Asuka.


Eva have a lot of official AU, so just bear it because it Eva nature. Let you enjoy anime while I enjoy manga, it was Eva fandom rules for years.

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Re: End of the manga "Sadamoto's manga"

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Postby Tumbling Down » Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:12 pm

I thought the manga was just ripping off Madoka.

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Postby Reichu » Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:10 pm

View Original PostTumbling Down wrote:I thought the manga was just ripping off Madoka.

1/10.

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Re: End of the manga "Sadamoto's manga"

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:44 pm

View Original Postdb84x wrote:I just felt anime ending is too forced in favor Asuka despite all of us knew how she hate Shinji

Asuka doesn't get with Shinji in EoTV, and she calls Shinji "disgusting" in the end of EoE. I don't think there's anything that can be described as a romantic relationship between any of the Eva pilots. It's just all emotional confusion and turmoil.

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Postby RunningMan » Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:43 pm

The whole universe reset kind of supports the sequel theory for the Rebuilds with things from the previous world caring over into the next (e.g. Red streak on the moon, the battleship in the city, the red sea, ect...)

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Re: End of the manga "Sadamoto's manga"

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Postby Reichu » Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:15 am

RunningMan: All of the things you mention are not "carry-overs"; they're from the films' version of Second Impact. Read this post.

I'm not sure why the manga ending is commonly regarded as a "reset", either. As far as I can tell, it takes place an indefinite amount of time in the future (long enough for the petrified MP Evas to become barely recognizable) and features only reincarnated versions of the characters. In other words, we never find out what happens to the Shinji we spent the whole manga with. He unceremoniously dies off-screen, presumably so Sadamoto can cheat his way out of showing the immediate aftermath of a global catastrophe and the non-negligible impact of such a thing on the cast. Most readers don't think twice about this due to the fictional convention of making reincarnations look exactly the same as previous lives the soul has lived.

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Re: End of the manga "Sadamoto's manga"

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:05 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:I imagine some kind of multiverse in which every possible outcome exists in a sort of quantum state, and our consciousness follows and instantiates one particular path; but at the end, Shinji is able, through his understanding, to flip his consciousness across to a different path which then becomes his reality.

This is pure psuedo-science... which I'm not saying that you're claiming that it isn't, I'm just stating a fact. It's interesting to think about, but large objects do not exist in such a poorly defined state prior to being measured. There are constant interactions going on that cause the fundamental particles to collapse out of superposition all the time. Some (poorly educated, in terms of quantum mechanics) people that believe large objects can simply exist in some sort of quantum soup-like or cloud-like state before being observed by something with consciousness subscribe to the terrible (mis)understandings of quantum phenomena that Deepak Chopra has, for example. Since this is a work of science fiction, I would be willing to entertain the idea for that reason, and that reason alone. However, I really don't think that's what he had in mind with what happened. I don't know any more than you do, so you could be right, but the chances of that aren't very high, so it's hard for me to conclude that you're right. It's definitely an interesting thought, though.

As far as my opinion of the Manga goes, I very much disliked how Kaworu was virtually a psychopath. In a way, it was an interesting look at how something that was basically an alien that had never experienced human emotions before would behave (after he felt Rei's feelings of love and loneliness though, I wish he would've softened up a little, but I suppose that wouldn't really make sense, since he still doesn't naturally feel those things), but I prefer muh Kaworu-kun. This one didn't offer to Shinji what NGE and even NTE do, and Shinji even kills him at his behest, rather than his request. He strong arms him into doing it, rather than gracefully choosing to let humanity to live on; instead, he realizes that no matter what he does, it will result in his death (like what happens in the manga, where he either dies from making contact with Lilith, SEELE kills him, or Shinji kills him). Presumably, it was the same way in NGE, but we weren't explicitly told what would happen as a result of him making contact with Lilith (for all we knew he would've survived somehow, although unlikely), and of course he didn't manipulate and guilt trip Shinji into killing him, by saying something along the lines of ~"if you have even the slightest bit of love for me, kill me with your own hands".

I agree with what other posters have said about how Asuka and even Gendo were handled. I'm a bit indifferent to how Shinji's character and behavior were handled. It bothered me at first that he actually had some modicum of confidence (especially when he first gets in the Eva and gets angry with something Gendo says and exclaims "I'll show him!"), and how much of a cold, bratty, ass hole he could be. He was seriously begging to get beat up by Toji. After a while, I came to accept it and even grew to be as okay with it as the regular Shinji. In the manga he seems more like a real 14 year old boy with some anxiety issues and depression that results from his experiences. In NGE and NTE, he suffers from an utter lack of confidence (other than a few moments on NGE, like in Ep. 16 with Leliel), and has terrible anxiety issues and seemingly even depression right from the get-go. I like this version most because I saw this version first,I think. The manga version of Shinji definitely seemed much more like Gendo probably behaved when he was his age. Given Gendo has always kind of been a character that shows how Shinji would turn out if he never resolved any of his issues, this fit with that idea a bit better.

I found the fact that Rei was able to synch with and use Shogoki/Unit-01 rather annoying, especially since it interfered with the narrative that Unit-00 went berserk and she was terribly injured as a result, imo. Overall though, the only big change in a story arc I disliked was the EOE portion, and the ending. Instrumentality was not as I had hoped it would be. Shinji was a little too stable during it, and it skipped some of the lines or rephrased them in much less effective ways such that a lot of the impact of... the impact and instrumentality had, was missing. By that, I mean the messages Anno conveyed during that time. The happy-go lucky ending where none of the characters knew each other but Shinji had Misato's cross and there were left over "relics" the MP Evas and some how the world was healed (to include the Earth's axial tilt, evidenced by the fact it's winter; after the 2nd impact, Japan was in eternal Summer... are we to believe the explosion of third impact set it back around 23.5 degrees, or at least a tilt where Japan could experience winter again?) just raised too many questions and made too little sense for me. If it had merely been a normal altered reality, like Anno presented in Ep. 26, and there weren't any left over MP Evas and Shinji didn't have Misato's cross, it would've been better. The characters wouldn't necessarily even have to know each other and it would've been better, although I'd prefer that they did. Over all though, I don't like the idea of an ending like that, I prefer EOE's controversial ending. By controversial, I don't necessarily mean the reasons for why Shinji choked Asuka, but rather people debate whether it's technically a happy (or at least hopeful) ending, vs. a bad/negative/depressing ending. I'm in the hopeful ending camp. Despite reality being total shit, Shinji chooses to do what's healthiest--not to run away and escape reality, even when it's harsh and painful. When you live in a dream or a fantasy, you are the only person exists, and in that way, you don't really exist either. Without other people, you can't ever truly be happy, and certainly nothing would be worthwhile if you were the only person that existed. He chose the hard road that causes him to grow as a person, rather than succumbing to escapism or even suicidal ideation. You get a small part of that in the manga version of EOE, but you get all of it in the anime EOE.

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Re: End of the manga "Sadamoto's manga"

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:55 am

View Original PostStrokeMeGoat wrote:This is pure psuedo-science... which I'm not saying that you're claiming that it isn't, I'm just stating a fact. It's interesting to think about, but large objects do not exist in such a poorly defined state prior to being measured. There are constant interactions going on that cause the fundamental particles to collapse out of superposition all the time.

Within our universe this is true; but we do not know the physics of the (imaginary) something within which the multiverses would exist. So while it is indeed pseudo-science, there is for precisely that reason no scientific argument against it!
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Re: End of the manga "Sadamoto's manga"

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:28 am

View Original PostStrokeMeGoat wrote:I found the fact that Rei was able to synch with and use Shogoki/Unit-01 rather annoying, especially since it interfered with the narrative that Unit-00 went berserk and she was terribly injured as a result, imo.


Rei's compatible with Unit 01 in the TV series and movies too. She even synchronizes with it in Episode 14. Unit 01 just doesn't let her use it the one time she needs to.
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Re: End of the manga "Sadamoto's manga"

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:48 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:Rei's compatible with Unit 01 in the TV series and movies too. She even synchronizes with it in Episode 14. Unit 01 just doesn't let her use it the one time she needs to.

I wasn't referring to the fact that she could sync with Unit-01 in itself so much as the fact that she could at the very beginning of the manga. Granted though, it seems Unit-00 and Unit-01 are treated differently in the manga, considering Yui's original contact experiment happened with Unit-00 instead of Unit-01. IIRC, they just transferred her core/core block to Unit-01.

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Postby Reichu » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:04 pm

The CE didn't happen with Eva-00. That was a flub in the adapted English script.

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:20 pm

Interesting, good to know. That makes things a lot less confusing.

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Postby mammaluser » Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:21 pm

Well personally i liked the manga as much as i liked the series, of course the end was a little "hollow" per say, but in someway delivered, i always take this stand where i see the eva universe severed in realities/different timelines, NGE (this of course includes EoE), N64 game is another one, the rebuilds and the manga, so basically i guess that sadamoto wanted something different, maybe he was a Rei guy (although it was clear as day that he was one) and besides that the manga did took that long because of the rebuilds, so i guess that amidst all this "sadness" and "desperation" in all of the endings to almost all of the timelines sadamoto wanted something happy and thus gave us the "happy" ending, but idk maybe he finished it because they told him so.
Also i guess that Misato's cross is there idk maybe because in someway deep inside him Shinji remembers Misato and/or everything that happened or maybe it was just plain fan service.
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