Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby lily liver » Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:42 pm

any interpretive evidence is welcome too if you find it compelling, but i don't think i've ever seen anything, at least in the main tv series and movies, that would directly suggest that this is the case. despite this, i've seen people say that this is the case many times.

before you mention the kiss in EoE, i don't find that even remotely compelling. they were in a life or death situation and Shinji desperately needed any sort of motivation to just keep going. i don't see it as anything more than an empty promise/last ditch effort, made my a woman who knew she would be dead within minutes. if it happened in a less critical situation, it would be very compelling, but people were dying left and right, and she found out everything important at the start of the movie. she knew the full scale of what was at stake.

her being flirtatious when he first moves in, i see as either her being a bit oblivious to how this would affect a teenaged boy, or possibly being aware and having a bit of fun at his expense.

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Re: is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby gatotsu911 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:50 pm

There's a subtle undercurrent of sexual tension from the beginning but it's pretty clear that their relationship is more familial - mother/son or sister/brother - than erotic. Misato only falls back on sex at the very end out of desperation at her perceived inability to reach Shinji in any other way, which is meant to be seen as tragic by the audience.

She doesn't really know how to communicate with people on an emotionally intimate level in a non-sexual way. That's part of why she has such difficulty getting across her feelings for Kaji in any way other than boning - which is also played for tragedy with the (vague, ambiguous) insinuation that maybe if she'd let him in sooner he wouldn't have been so cavalier about throwing his life away.
Last edited by gatotsu911 on Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby Sachi » Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:52 pm

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Re: is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby gatotsu911 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:01 pm

Evageeks really loves that DC 23 scene but the fact is it's a very ambiguous scene that can be interpreted in more than a couple ways. Clearly it was inserted as foreshadowing for the kiss scene in EoE but it's not nearly as clear-cut.

Worth noting: Shinji's own sexual discomfort and confusion around Misato, which is played for laughs early on, ironically becomes a major impediment to his ability to become close to her as the story progresses and the stakes become more dire.

Also Misato outright explicitly says during Instrumentality that she regrets having failed at "being a mother to Shinji". (AWL's color commentary: "You cleaned his tonsils with your tongue! That's not a very 'motherly' thing to do!!")
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Re: is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby lily liver » Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:19 pm

so after following sachi's link, i realized there is probably a lot that i've missed. i've only ever watched it with the dub (i know, heresy).

the line in the dub in ep 23 is "all i can do is be here for you"
the subbed line is "this is about all I can do for you right now"

now i don't know if its just me, but doesn't "be here for you" not sound anywhere near as sexual as "this is all i can do for you" considering how she is?
there have been plenty of times where a friend was going through something, and all i could do was just "be there" for them.

i've seen people reference this scene many times as Misato "offering her body" to Shinji, and all this time i've had no idea what the hell they were talking about. i can't even tell if i'm just stupid, or if the translation is butchered to high heaven and i can't be blamed for this flying over my head.

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Re: is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby gatotsu911 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:27 pm

View Original Postlily liver wrote:i've seen people reference this scene many times as Misato "offering her body" to Shinji, and all this time i've had no idea what the hell they were talking about. i can't even tell if i'm just stupid, or if the translation is butchered to high heaven and i can't be blamed for this flying over my head.

Neither. It's an intentionally ambiguous scene and the sexual innuendo is pure subtext.
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Re: is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:29 pm

It's a matter of how sexual you feel mere touching fingers can be (and the answer is - it all depends!).
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Re: is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby gatotsu911 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:39 pm

When you're a horny, emotionally distressed teenage boy, the answer is: a lot.

Also reminder that this scene is followed seconds later by Misato wondering if the fact that she's a woman scares him. Which it does, that's the whole setup for his whirlwind relationship with Kaworu in the next episode and slide into alienated despondency thereafter.
Last edited by gatotsu911 on Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby zlink64 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:48 pm

View Original Postlily liver wrote:i've seen people reference this scene many times as Misato "offering her body" to Shinji, and all this time i've had no idea what the hell they were talking about. i can't even tell if i'm just stupid, or if the translation is butchered to high heaven and i can't be blamed for this flying over my head.


You are not dumb. I literally had your exact explanation the first time I saw it and I've seen other people say the same thing so it's pretty common. That being said you did kinda refused to acknowledge the kiss as being sexual when it totally is a sexual act, so, it's a bit on you.

@gatso I never consider that scene as tragic. The way you describe is an interesting way of thinking about it though. I've though of it as honesty.
The reason being is that the entire conversation during that seen is basically Misato giving advice to Shinji about making his own choices and owning up to them and to stop lying to himself. Taking that into account I think Misato would've been a hypocrite if she didn't kiss him. I say that because the only reason she doesn't act on these feelings generally comes down to really just age. So, this entire time instead of acting on what she felt she let other things dictate her actions. That kind of thing is exactly what she is telling Shinji not to do. And when I compare that kiss to every other interaction between them during the show the major difference I see is that she wasn't pretending to be something she's not for Shinji sake (be his mom) or using Shinji for her sake(she is lonely), instead that kiss is just what she honestly wanted to do with no pretenses. I guess I don't consider tragic and more as kinda of happy.

Anyway don't wanna argue, just sharing for the sake of sharing. I could totally be wrong and I kinda like the way you view it.
hmmm

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Re: is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby thewayneiac » Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:48 pm

View Original Postgatotsu911 wrote:Evageeks really loves that DC 23 scene but the fact is it's a very ambiguous scene that can be interpreted in more than a couple ways. Clearly it was inserted as foreshadowing for the kiss scene in EoE but it's not nearly as clear-cut.


Umm.... The scene in Ep. 23 where Misato comes into Shinji's room was there all along; it's not part of the material that was added to the Director's Cuts.
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Re: is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby NemZ » Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:59 pm

View Original Postgatotsu911 wrote:Evageeks really loves that DC 23 scene but the fact is it's a very ambiguous scene that can be interpreted in more than a couple ways. Clearly it was inserted as foreshadowing for the kiss scene in EoE but it's not nearly as clear-cut.


Correction... The scene was reanimated for the DC but it was still there in the original.
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Re: is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby lily liver » Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:07 pm

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:You are not dumb. I literally had your exact explanation

maybe we're both dumb

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Re: is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby zlink64 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:22 pm

View Original Postlily liver wrote:before you mention the kiss in EoE, i don't find that even remotely compelling. they were in a life or death situation and Shinji desperately needed any sort of motivation to just keep going. i don't see it as anything more than an empty promise/last ditch effort, made my a woman who knew she would be dead within minutes. if it happened in a less critical situation, it would be very compelling, but people were dying left and right, and she found out everything important at the start of the movie. she knew the full scale of what was at stake.
\


I just was saying that this is a really common initial though to have about that scene so you shouldn't feel dumb about it because a lot of people have it I.E it's normal. But if you wanna feel dumb go ahead but don't lump me in with you lol.
hmmm

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Re: is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby lily liver » Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:33 pm

well after coming to that realization about that scene in 23, i have a very different perspective about the kiss scene than when i started this thread... so there's that.
and when i said "maybe we're both dumb" i meant it as a joke, but it probably didn't convey very well.

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Re: is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby gatotsu911 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:59 pm

View Original Postthewayneiac wrote:Umm.... The scene in Ep. 23 where Misato comes into Shinji's room was there all along; it's not part of the material that was added to the Director's Cuts.

Alright sue me guys, I haven't seen the original series (let alone the non-DC episodes) in a very long time

Apart from that my points still stand
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Re: is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby Sachi » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:32 pm

View Original Postgatotsu911 wrote:Alright sue me guys, I haven't seen the original series (let alone the non-DC episodes) in a very long time

Apart from that my points still stand

Keep in mind that the scene in ep23 is not simply foreshadowing for EoE, but also for EoTV, particularly during Misato's case. Misato uses sex as a way of displaying compassion and proving her existence to other people, and her failure to relate to people otherwise is what lead to this scene, and is also the focal point of her examination in EoTV.
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Re: is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby gatotsu911 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:12 am

Partly, but it seems to me like a lot of people here posit a more concrete meaning to that scene than it was ever intended to have. Was Misato literally planning to bone Shinji, right then and there? It's deliberately very vague, almost subliminal, though stuff like the wiki entry was clearly written by someone who either believes it isn't or was more interested in making the case for a particular interpretation of the scene than examining it in a vacuum.

Trying to boil down a deliberate narrative ambiguity regarding the inner workings of emotionally complex characters to a simple yes-or-no question seems inherently reductionist, but I'm inclined to read it a bit less literally than (what seems to be) the norm. I don't think a gesture as extreme as attempting sex with Shinji would really make sense for Misato's character at that point in the story - at the very least, I don't think that's her conscious intent. Rather, the setup of the scene, the dialogue and framing and the uncomfortable camera angles, all point more to the suggestion of such a thing, or its existence merely as a thought in the mind of one or both characters, than anything that is physically happening or about to happen. The whole point of that scene is to drive home the breakdown of Shinji and Misato's ostensibly familial relationship, and part of that is sexual tension as an emotionally complicating factor sabotaging their ability to be emotionally intimate in a time of crisis. The borderline-unconscious suggestion of sexual thoughts in a place they're not welcome is more nuanced, and more devastating, than the thing itself. In that light I think framing the scene as "Misato offering her body" seems like a crude oversimplification.
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Re: is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:49 pm

The notion that Misato was trying to do anything other than a motherly sort of cuddle (and compounding her awkwardness in assuming that role with that of a teen on the brink of manhood) mainly arises from extra-textual statements from the production staff. To my mind the sexual interpretation at that point undercuts the subsequent "adult kiss" scene in EoE, because it would follow on from him already having rebuffed her advances.
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Re: is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:04 pm

Episode 25 includes a repeat of the "Stop it, Misato!" bit, directly followed by some of the characters reinforcing Misato's sexual guilt. Just in case, y'know, episode 23 was too subtle.

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Re: is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby gatotsu911 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:05 pm

EoTV recycles a whole lot of dialogue divorced from its original context for effect
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