Ghostbusters Reboot

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:32 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:and it's sad that pathetic nerds on the internet wrecked that for everyone.

Most folks don't pay attention to internet drama when a movie comes out, it was simply unappealing to the masses.

Doesn't help that Star Trek came out the following week and blew its chances of making a comeback in the second week out of the water. There was just too strong a lineup of better movies against it and no interest in seeing it. The average movie goer isn't going to know about any social media bullshit surrounding the film online.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:57 am

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:Most folks don't pay attention to internet drama when a movie comes out, it was simply unappealing to the masses.

Doesn't help that Star Trek came out the following week and blew its chances of making a comeback in the second week out of the water. There was just too strong a lineup of better movies against it and no interest in seeing it. The average movie goer isn't going to know about any social media bullshit surrounding the film online.


Sure, go with that. I'm sure that, if you look hard enough, you'll even find someone who believes it.
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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:05 am

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:Doesn't help that Star Trek came out the following week and blew its chances of making a comeback in the second week out of the water.


This is probably a much bigger effect in general than people think.

But I think Revolutionary Lady Devilman Ghostbusters 2016 made a serious error. It was a gross-out flick. Paul Feig was thinking a lady ghostbusters was a 'billion dollar idea' like 'Bridesmaids'. The problem is he re-made 'Bridesmaids'. (I may be wrong but New Ghostbusters is PG-13 while Old is still PG which is probably a big deal to kid centered franchises)
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Postby TheFriskyIan » Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:43 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Sure, go with that. I'm sure that, if you look hard enough, you'll even find someone who believes it.

If the idea that angry nerds on the internet caused a huge movie investment to crash is as prominent as you say, I shouldn't have to look hard at all. The numbers for Secret Life of Pets and Star Trek speak for me, those movies sapped away any potential big audience that Gb2016 needed to to make money.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:56 am

View Original PostSoryuUberAlles wrote:But I think Revolutionary Lady Devilman Ghostbusters 2016 made a serious error. It was a gross-out flick. Paul Feig was thinking a lady ghostbusters was a 'billion dollar idea' like 'Bridesmaids'. The problem is he re-made 'Bridesmaids'. (I may be wrong but New Ghostbusters is PG-13 while Old is still PG which is probably a big deal to kid centered franchises)


I'm not sure what you're getting at with any of this, because nothing you say here makes sense to me.

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:If the idea that angry nerds on the internet caused a huge movie investment to crash is as prominent as you say, I shouldn't have to look hard at all. The numbers for Secret Life of Pets and Star Trek speak for me, those movies sapped away any potential big audience that Gb2016 needed to to make money.


Ian, you can't make a preview one of the top ten most hated videos on YouTube of all time and raise such a stink that it draws mainstream media attention and then hide behind "who me?" when it actually has an effect in the real world. The things you point to certainly had an effect on the movie's numbers, but so did the hate campaign designed to drag it down. Pretending otherwise is disingenuous.
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Postby TheFriskyIan » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:35 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Ian, you can't make a preview one of the top ten most hated videos on YouTube of all time and raise such a stink that it draws mainstream media attention and then hide behind "who me?" when it actually has an effect in the real world. The things you point to certainly had an effect on the movie's numbers, but so did the hate campaign designed to drag it down. Pretending otherwise is disingenuous.


I really don't see how though. People down voting a trailer for a movie I'm interested in wouldn't make me not want to see it and I imagine most people are like that too. Not to mention how favorable critics were to GB2016, more people would probably listen to RT than a Youtube comment.
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Postby Ray » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:47 am

@bagheera
I'm not even going to try to explain how blind your obviously liberal political perspective is making you to this.

But let me explain why this movie was so controversial.

It failed because Instead of making Ghostbusters 3, the studio opted for a hard reboot. Which makes no sense, given the majority of the main cast is still alive at the time the movie began production. The reason it was a hard reboot and not a sequel, was a dual reason. The firstly, that the Hollywood system kept dicking around Dan Aykroyd's and Harold Ramis's script for Ghostbusters 3 until Harold Ramis died.

That was the first sign.

The thing that triggered this Garbage Fire was Paul Feige. Who in his own words "didn't want the female characters to inherit anything from a male counterpart'. (I'll link the interview when I can find it). That's right people. The reason Paul decided to make the cast female, as well as make it a hard reboot instead of a sequel that could have respected the legacy of the original movies. was POLITICALLY MOTIVATED. So in other words, the politics of this particular director were associated with a controversial change That closed the book on the adventures of the original characters FOREVER. A change that in the eyes of many people, (from all parts of the political spectrum) tarnished the legacy of something great.

For example. Zack Snyder is a Randian Capitalist Objectivist. But he's never open about it, and he's never associated his political beliefs with his work. But imagine if, he said 'the reason I made these drastic changes to the DC universe in my movies were because of my own political views and hangups'. Fans would blame Ayn Randian politics for 'ruining' the DC characters. Except it wouldn't be as bad, because DC can always reboot and recast the characters because they're Icons. You can't really do that with the Ghostbuster Characters who are far less iconic.

Also, notes for Sony, the journalists, and the cast who went on tour, all of them fanning the flames by inciting the people who objected to the female cast on genuinely misogynistic terms? Good business sense 101. Unless your movie is explicitly about political themes and thus wasn't going to be a mass market hit anyway, you don't put politics, especially gender politics smack dab center in the FREAKING MARKETING! Especially for a multi-million dollar investment with lots of CGI you're planning to turn into a cinematic universe!

Especially in a FUCKING ELECTION YEAR when people are going to be more sensitive and offended by things like this! That risks potentially alienating at least 50% of your potential audience, you should have seen the writing on the wall!
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:09 pm

The fact that comedies in general are a low-profit genre is the biggest hurdle. Comedies in the 80's always out-performed sci-fi action films. 1984 Ghostbusters made more money than 1984 Star Trek 3 simply because the comedy genre as a whole was more popular at the time. 2016 Ghostbusters can't compete with 2016 Star Trek 3 because the whole comedy genre has been marginalized by Adam Sandler and Tyler Perry, and it's therefore not as profitable of a genre anymore.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:24 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:I'm not even going to try to explain how blind your obviously liberal political perspective is making you to this.


You're wrong. My politics don't even enter into it, and your "explanation" is more a reflection of yours than anything substantial. Freaky's right about the performance of comedies in the modern era, and the fact that a dedicated hate machine was hacking away at the movie long before anyone had ever seen it ensured it never stood a chance. Hell, I'd bet money you still haven't seen it, and are happily hating it regardless on general principle. And that's just sad, man, because as I said it's a pretty cool movie.
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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:26 pm

View Original PostRay wrote: The firstly, that the Hollywood system kept dicking around Dan Aykroyd's and Harold Ramis's script for Ghostbusters 3 until Harold Ramis died.


I think Bill Murray saying he'd only be in it if his character was "killed off in the first reel" was a bigger problem.

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote: 2016 Ghostbusters can't compete with 2016 Star Trek 3 because the whole comedy genre has been marginalized by Adam Sandler and Tyler Perry, and it's therefore not as profitable of a genre anymore.


Again, I would concede to the reboot critics that Feig got the sense of humour of the original wrong. It had a very satirical 'friendly neighbourhood ghost exterminators in NYC' edge to it that the reboot missed.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:50 pm

Oh, the comedy could have been funnier/more faithful/dense with the jokes/better written/whatever, and it would probably have been a better film as a result, sure. But hoping that any comedy can financially compete on the same levels as they could in the 80's is a fool's hope no matter what these days. Trust me, if critical reviews decided what film made money and what film was left in the gutter, DC cinematic universe would have been a financial flop starting with MoS. But critics don't decide who spends money on what, money-spenders do. And in the world of film those money-spenders are the audiences. That's why we still have Transformers movies despite the low critical appraisal.
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Postby pwhodges » Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:14 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:you don't put politics, especially gender politics smack dab center in the FREAKING MARKETING!

But is having an all-female cast necessarily gender politics? If so, why is having an all-male cast not also political?

Similarly, why is a reboot inherently less interesting to you than something which just follows in the footsteps of earlier films? Maybe not doing what you want could have been a more interesting choice.

In any case, any reason for the controversy is essentially past and gone; because the film is out there, and any discussion which doesn't take the actual film into account is just playing games at this stage.
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Postby Squigsquasher » Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:45 pm

Myself, I think the movie was really just horrendously marketed and poorly conceived. Aside from the grossly misaimed attempts at pandering to "everything should be changed for change's sake" idiots whilst at the same time selling itself on being a successor to a well-liked franchise whose main appeal nowadays is nostalgia, the key decision to replace the Ghostbusters we all knew and loved with completely new characters was a silly idea to begin with. Rampant changes to the source material is never a good idea with something that's supposed to be selling itself on nostalgia, and when it's something as important as, you know, the Ghostbusters themselves, changing who the characters are is just daft. It's not them being women, it's the fact that they aren't the Ghostbusters.

Imagine if someone made a live-action Bubblegum Crisis movie...except the Knight Sabers were all men. That would suck. Fans would be rightfully angry. The Knight Sabers weren't men, they were a quartet of badass adorable women. This is no different- if it's shitty for female characters to be made male for no reason (which it is) then it stands to reason that male characters being made female for no reason is also shitty.

Look at how the Power Rangers reboot is shaping up- fans are already dreading it because quite frankly the Megazord design sucks. I'm not a big Power Rangers/Super Sentai fan (though as a nipper I did like Wild Force and Space Patrol Delta) but I can wholeheartedly agree that it isn't how a PR movie should be done. Doing it in CGI rather than tokusatsu, sure. It's a shame but it's pretty much necessary. But taking the chunky, powerful design aesthetic everybody loved- and could EASILY have been done well in CGI- and replacing it with a CG man made of grey carbon fibre with a few token bits of messily-designed dinosaur on it is just daft, and totally unnecessary. And I say that as someone who likes to see things redone in different aesthetics.

TLDR: Hollywood, stop making stupid, unnecessary changes to perfectly good source material, you morons.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:59 pm

View Original PostSquigsquasher wrote:Myself, I think the movie was really just horrendously marketed and poorly conceived. Aside from the grossly misaimed attempts at pandering to "everything should be changed for change's sake" idiots whilst at the same time selling itself on being a successor to a well-liked franchise whose main appeal nowadays is nostalgia, the key decision to replace the Ghostbusters we all knew and loved with completely new characters was a silly idea to begin with. Rampant changes to the source material is never a good idea with something that's supposed to be selling itself on nostalgia, and when it's something as important as, you know, the Ghostbusters themselves, changing who the characters are is just daft. It's not them being women, it's the fact that they aren't the Ghostbusters.


It's 30 years after the fact, dude. Keeping the same cast would be asinine (also, at least some of the cast wanted nothing to do with a sequel, so there's that as well).

Imagine if someone made a live-action Bubblegum Crisis movie...except the Knight Sabers were all men. That would suck. Fans would be rightfully angry. The Knight Sabers weren't men, they were a quartet of badass adorable women. This is no different- if it's shitty for female characters to be made male for no reason (which it is) then it stands to reason that male characters being made female for no reason is also shitty.


Genderflipping a cast isn't in and of itself shitty, no matter which way it goes. And personally, I thought the fact that both casts drew from SNL talent was pretty cool, and a nice thematic link between the two. But that salient fact seems to have been lost in the noise.

TLDR: Hollywood, stop making stupid, unnecessary changes to perfectly good source material, you morons.


Yeah! We don't wanna see any new Ghostbusters material EVER AGAIN!

Welp, mission accomplished. Hope AVGN and those of like mind are satisfied, because they've ensured the franchise is dead, dead, dead.
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Postby Squigsquasher » Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:12 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It's 30 years after the fact, dude. Keeping the same cast would be asinine (also, at least some of the cast wanted nothing to do with a sequel, so there's that as well).

Which should be telling, but there you go.

Genderflipping a cast isn't in and of itself shitty, no matter which way it goes. And personally, I thought the fact that both casts drew from SNL talent was pretty cool, and a nice thematic link between the two. But that salient fact seems to have been lost in the noise.

I have to disagree. Genderflipping is 9 times out of 10 a lazy, cheap gimmick that adds nothing to the original material. I'm ashamed of my own feeble attempts at genderflipping fiction.

Yeah! We don't wanna see any new Ghostbusters material EVER AGAIN!

I for one didn't. I was satisfied with what we already had. A reboot 30 years after the fact of a franchise nobody really wanted a reboot of anyway seemed...unnecessary.

Welp, mission accomplished. Hope AVGN and those of like mind are satisfied, because they've ensured the franchise is dead, dead, dead.

And thank goodness for that. Ghostbusters should have been left the hell alone to begin with- ironic considering part of the point of the original is that the dead should stay dead. But instead of knowing when enough was enough and letting the poor franchise rest in peace, they dragged it from its slumber and defiled it forever.

Oh well. The ghost is well and truly busted, and the world is a better place for it.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:16 pm

View Original PostSquigsquasher wrote:I have to disagree. Genderflipping is 9 times out of 10 a lazy, cheap gimmick that adds nothing to the original material. I'm ashamed of my own feeble attempts at genderflipping fiction.


That's just, like, your opinion, man.

And thank goodness for that. Ghostbusters should have been left the hell alone to begin with- ironic considering part of the point of the original is that the dead should stay dead. But instead of knowing when enough was enough and letting the poor franchise rest in peace, they dragged it from its slumber and defiled it forever.


Or gave it a proper sendoff, depending on your perspective. But anyway, AVGN in particular was pretty keen on a sequel. Just, you know, his sequel. Not one anyone else particularly wanted to see. It's somehow fitting that his dream died by his own hand.
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Postby Squigsquasher » Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:18 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Or gave it a proper sendoff, depending on your perspective. But anyway, Paul Feig in particular was pretty keen on a sequel. Just, you know, his sequel. Not one anyone else particularly wanted to see. It's somehow fitting that his dream died by his own hand.

FTFY. :asuka_thumbsup:
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Postby Ray » Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:20 pm

Blaming AVGN for the Ghostbuster remake flopping is like blaming a messenger for telling you the war's been lost.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:21 pm

View Original PostSquigsquasher wrote:FTFY. :asuka_thumbsup:


That's not fixed because it's not correct. Feige wanted a reboot, not a sequel. AVGN wanted a sequel.

View Original PostRay wrote:Blaming AVGN for the Ghostbuster remake flopping is like blaming a messenger for telling you the war's been lost.


No, it's really not. If he'd supported it instead of panned it sight unseen things might have turned out very differently. We'll never know, of course, but we can be sure that his antics didn't help matters.
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I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Postby Ray » Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:28 pm

It's clear you'll always believe the reason this movie failed was because of sexism and not because the movie didn't respect the legacy of the original.

Making it a pass the torch sequel would have made everything go over with the fans a lot smoother even if the cast had been all female.
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