One more time with feeling -- concurrency etc.

[zlink64]

And this part was actually cited in our very first concurrency thread, within days of the EvaMonkey Forums being open for business.

Makes me wonder what other things like that have become similarly buried over the last decade-plus.

I"vw been meaning to ask is there like a master list of interesting /good/important forums or has any one have like personal list.

[NemZ]

No, but there is a search feature. It's the nature of the fourm that anything else worth talking about will be talked about repeatedly.

The simple truth is that translations of such abstract ideas will always be warped by the preferences of whomever does the translating, and thus we can argue such points forever. EoTV just spent the entirety of the last episode arguing the subjectivity of reality though, so of what good is the precise meaning of "real world" anyway? The ending is clearly NOT in normal reality, and that tells me all I need to know.

[Bagheera]

The simple truth is that translations of such abstract ideas will always be warped by the preferences of whomever does the translating, and thus we can argue such points forever. EoTV just spent the entirety of the last episode arguing the subjectivity of reality though, so of what good is the precise meaning of "real world" anyway? The ending is clearly NOT in normal reality, and that tells me all I need to know.

Neither was Shinji's discussion with Rei in EoE (nor with Yui, for that matter), but that didn't change his ultimate fate.

Me, I think the "simple truth" of that particular translation makes the arc of everything self-evident, but of course people believe what they want to believe.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Wait a minute...

In reference to "this 'real world'," Shinji is discussing a reality in which he doesn't pilot the Eva. So when Shinji mentions his acceptance of reality towards the end, is he referring to the reality in which he isn't an Eva pilot? Because that's not the real world that's depicted in EoE. Unit 01 is still there, Yui still resides in it, and the real world is still suffering from the aftermath of Shinji being an Eva pilot. This doesn't seem like the reality where Shinji isn't an Eva pilot.

I mean, I guess it could also mean that Shinji will return to the real world where he won't be an Eva pilot anymore, but then we're back to the ending being ambiguous all over again. I'm not trying to force the ambiguity, mind you. Hell, I'd love to have this thing clear up. (In fact, I think I might change the sub files for the NGE Blu-ray to better match this more accurate translation, as I do believe that this is an important distinction to make.) Also, I find that this question of whether or not Shinji accepted instrumentality to be of lesser importance that the question behind the differing tones of the two endings. But it's just that when Shinji says "The me right now is not exactly me, itself" and then talks about how other possibilities of himself can be "real," and then returns to the "real world," it still seems like a very loose usage of the term, and therefore still somewhat ambiguous as to what it's actually referring to.

The inclusion of the possibility of Shinji not needing to be an Eva pilot in relation to the "real world" confuses me the most, I guess. If Shinji meant that he didn't have to pilot the Eva anymore, well, that decision's been made for him regardless of whether or not he leaves Instrumentality. Unit 01 no longer needed Shinji as a pilot after Instrumentality commenced, right? Unless.....

Wait...... Hold on.......... Holy Shit, I get it now! Shinji was piloting Unit 01 during instrumentality. He may not have been in his physical human form, but Unit 01 was the vessel for all souls, and Shinji was still influencing its actions throughout Instrumentality. Fuyutsuki even explained this when he stated before Third Impact "Our future lies in the hands of Ikari's son." In this sense, even though it is only by his wishes, Shinji is still piloting Eva Unit 01, despite the fact that he's no longer in his human form.

Through the Evangelion, Shinji's actions and decisions determined the course of Instrumentality.

Through the Evangelion, Shinji's actions and decisions could only determine the course of Instrumentality.

The only way for Shinji to get out of Instrumentality was by not being an Evangelion pilot anymore.

He couldn't have chosen a "reality" within Instrumentality where he didn't pilot Eva Unit 01, because that's impossible, That's not how Instrumentality works.

And by refusing to pilot Eva Unit 01, he is finally able to escape his mother, literally birthing himself back into the world.

This explains how EoTV ties more closely in with EoE's ending than I had initially thought.

My God, this is amazing!

But I still find the tonal contrast between EoTV's ending and EoE's ending significant enough to consider them different endings. As I said before, I still find that contrast to be the more important aspect of this show's approach to concluding the story than where Shinji was at the time he was feeling that way. Evangelion is more about emotions than it is about locations. But at least I now have a more concrete context in which to consider the contrasting tones and messages of the different endings, and that helps a lot!

Thank you, GoatJesus!

(Sorry for the rambling nature of this post, but I was literally trying to think through this and solve it while I was typing, and I didn't feel like going back and editing any of it.)

[NemZ]

I have absolutely no idea what you're on about, Freaky. You're mixing bits of two different endings and fanwanking so hard it will probably leave a bruise.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

The implied importance of Yui and Eva Unit 01 to the plans of both Nerv and Seele in the rest of the TV show prior to either endings suggests that Unit 01's purpose and mechanics in both endings need to be universally the same. I'll admit there's some minor assumptions going on in the marriage of the two endings, but at this point the two are similar enough as to where the only narrative difference between them is really tone. (Which is most certainly an importance difference, to be sure.)

To imply EoE's ending is too different from EoTV's ending would suggest Unit 01's purpose and mechanics in EoE isn't the same as it was in anything we've seen in the TV series thus far. As such, if EoE is as different as you say it is, then Unit 01 works differently in EoE than the NGE show said it does. If this is the case, then EoE isn't a different ending to NGE, but rather it's an ending to a TV show that we'd never seen.

[NemZ]

To imply EoE's ending is too different from EoTV's ending would suggest Unit 01's purpose and mechanics in EoE isn't the same as it was in anything we've seen in the TV series thus far. As such, if EoE is as different as you say it is, then Unit 01 works differently in EoE than the NGE show said it does.

Actually I see no evidence that unit 01 is involved in EoTV's version of instrumentality at all. It's heavily implied Gendo is at the wheel and we know Rei was involved because he told her it was time and all that, but beyond Yui being the end goal he's seeking there's no implication whatsoever that unit 01 was the medium of instrumentality, that the lance came back, or that Shinji was in any way in a unique situation within instrumentality save that he was clearly a little late to move to stage 2. It could be just Rei, Gendo, and Lilith as the heart of the matter, period.

If we are to use events in EoE as a guide (and I don't think we need to, but just for argument's sake) it would seem Rei didn't argue with Gendo, steal his arm and run off when Shinji 'called'. It's even possible Shinji never got into the eva in the first place... maybe the SSDF guys gunned Misato down in the hallway (where we see her dead, not blown to bits) and then put two in Shinji's dome as ordered. Asuka may or may not have gotten her eva working again... doesn't really matter either way. Ritsuko is shot in the back rather than front, with circumstances open to wild speculation. The Adam embryo in Gendo's hand thing was invented for the death/DC cuts so Kaworu's absence is not troublesome either. Kaji, the bridge crew, and even the student friends were all there in speaking roles though, so that's rather different.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Actually I see no evidence that unit 01 is involved in EoTV's version of instrumentality at all. It's heavily implied Gendo is at the wheel and we know Rei was involved because he told her it was time and all that, but beyond Yui being the end goal he's seeking there's no implication whatsoever that unit 01 was the medium of instrumentality, that the lance came back, or that Shinji was in any way in a unique situation within instrumentality save that he was clearly a little late to move to stage 2. It could be just Rei, Gendo, and Lilith as the heart of the matter, period.

That's impossible if Gendo wanted to use Instrumentality in order to get Yui back, as Yui being trapped inside Eva Unit 01 that would necessitate the usage of Eva Unit 01 in some fashion. And Gendo's Yui-centric goal was implied strongly in both versions of Episode 21, so this needs to be a factor in any conclusion of the narrative, especially one involving Gendo Ikari.

[zlink64]

He couldn't have chosen a "reality" within Instrumentality where he didn't pilot Eva Unit 01, because that's impossible, That's not how Instrumentality works.

This part right here is a big assumption. I bring it up becuase I disagree with this:

"The only way for Shinji to get out of Instrumentality was by not being an Evangelion pilot anymore."

But either way even if I did agree it'd still be a big assumption.

[Bagheera]

Actually I see no evidence that unit 01 is involved in EoTV's version of instrumentality at all.

That ignores virtually everything we've seen about Unit 01 throughout the series. Yui going berserk, getting an S2, all of that? Utterly meaningless.

Pass. Freaky might be going a bit overboard, but at least he's not ignoring huge chunks of the show to make his favorite ending work.

[NemZ]

That's impossible if Gendo wanted to use Instrumentality in order to get Yui back, as Yui being trapped inside Eva Unit 01 that would necessitate the usage of Eva Unit 01 in some fashion.

Well yeah, of course getting her out (or getting him in?) is the goal there, but I mean there's no reason to assume unit 01 was at the center of the instrumentality process itself in both versions... she just needs a visit from one of the many Grim Reipers like everyone else. Seele certainly was under the impression that she was just a backup so Lilith is obviously capable of serving all on her own, and they needed the lance to attempt to control her... but if Gendo still has some fraction of Rei's trust then he doesn't need that at all.

And Bags, Gendo didn't arrange for the S2 thing in any fashion, it just happened. Why wouldn't he be happy about the only unit he actually cares about getting a powerup? Just because Seele was freaked out and he postured around it all 'it's under control' as usual doesn't mean it was actually integral to the ending. EoTV doesn't mention anything whatsoever about that, so it's just a thing that happened.

This part right here is a big assumption. I bring it up becuase I disagree with this:
"The only way for Shinji to get out of Instrumentality was by not being an Evangelion pilot anymore."

Yeah, I still have no idea what that was about.

Can you take another swing at that Freaky? I honestly don't know what you were trying to get across in that ramble.

[Bagheera]

And Bags, Gendo didn't arrange for the S2 thing in any fashion, it just happened. Why wouldn't he be happy about the only unit he actually cares about getting a powerup? Just because Seele was freaked out and he postured around it all 'it's under control' as usual doesn't mean it was actually integral to the ending. EoTV doesn't mention anything whatsoever about that, so it's just a thing that happened.

Right, and that means that, in your version of EoTV, it serves no narrative purpose at all. That makes it (along with virtually everything else we see about Unit 01 over the course of the show) a waste of time. That's just plain bad storytelling, which is why I think your approach is off-base. It's technically plausible, but everything else about the direction of the story tells me it's very much not what's going on.

[Arcadia's legacy]

Correct. You don't just give a big event a large amount of focus, only to forget about it afterwards, that violates the law of conservation of detail

[NemZ]

It serves the narrative purpose of continuing to build the 'tampering with things beyond our ken' theme and raises questions about the evas that will be answered later. It also provides a useful reason to keep Shinji out of the encounters with Arael and (mostly) Armisael.

[Bagheera]

It serves the narrative purpose of continuing to build the 'tampering with things beyond our ken' theme and raises questions about the evas that will be answered later. It also provides a useful reason to keep Shinji out of the encounters with Arael and (mostly) Armisael.

Not really. He was kept out of those battles because revealing the power of the S2 engine was supposed to be dangerous somehow, but we're never given any indication as to why that's the case. It's bad storytelling if your ending was the ultimate goal. And of course, if EoE was the ultimate goal it works out perfectly.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Freaky might be going a bit overboard, but at least he's not ignoring huge chunks of the show to make his favorite ending work.

Traditionally speaking on this forum, hard congruency theory was never my "favorite ending." And honestly, I still may not subscribe 100% to the idea that EoTV and EoE are exactly the same endings, as there's still the fact that there are tonal elements and character developments in both endings that differ from one another. (Example: There's no masturbation present or even implied in EoTV, and its ending is much more overtly optimistic than EoE's ending. I believe that these differences are vitally important to the messages of both endings, and that it's possible that the inclusion of the masturbation scene directly ties into the reasoning behind why EoE feels less joyous than EoTV's ending.) However, with this more accurate translation in mind, it does seem that regardless of these differences both endings take place with Shinji returning to the real world.

It serves the narrative purpose of continuing to build the 'tampering with things beyond our ken' theme and raises questions about the evas that will be answered later. It also provides a useful reason to keep Shinji out of the encounters with Arael and (mostly) Armisael.

Having Unit 01 do something as drastic as eat an S2 engine while Gendo smiles deviously only to amount to Shinji sitting in the dugout during a couple Angel fights is a total narrative rip off. (I really doubt that Gendo was smiling because he knew that Shinji would have to sit the next couple battles out. There's no reason for that kind of smile of that's the case.) That would be like Peter Parker acquiring all of those spider powers only to have him grow more fond of spiders and not include any crime-fighting in the story. While it's technically plausible that something like that might happen in that fictitious world, it doesn't work as a story and leaves the viewers wanting more. It's all wind-up and no pitch.

This part right here is a big assumption. I bring it up becuase I disagree with this:

"The only way for Shinji to get out of Instrumentality was by not being an Evangelion pilot anymore."

But either way even if I did agree it'd still be a big assumption.

I don't believe that it is a big assumption. Fuyutsuki explains that Unit 01 has obtained both the Fruit of Life and the Fruit of Wisdom, making Unit 01 become "like a God." He calls Unit 01 a "propagule of souls," then says that it dictates what course Instrumentality will take based on the discussions of Shinji. (He literally says "Our future lies in the hands of Ikari's son.") Right before Instrumentality begins in EoE, we see Yui -who is inside Unit 01- directly ask Shinji "What do you wish for?" Shinji responds with what he wanted, and Yui made it so in Instrumentality. This is Shinji piloting Eva Unit 01, even though its not through conventional means. The interface is different, but it the concept of piloting is still being accomplished. Shinji commands Unit 01, Unit 01 follows those commands. Add to that the fact that Unit 01 is currently also the propagule of souls that's dictating the course of Instrumentality, and you have Shinji commanding Instrumentality by piloting Eva Unit 01.

However, because Unit 01 is also still the "propagule of souls," the souls collected during Instrumentality are directly influenced by Unit 01's decisions. The only way for a soul to remove itself from those outcomes would be to remove itself from the propagule. In other words, the soul would need to remove itself from Unit 01. But at the time Shinji didn't want that. He didn't realize that he didn't want it until much later in EoE, when he tells Rei that he wants everyone to be separate again. The he says that, Unit 01 again follows orders, but it results in Shinji escaping Unit 01. His soul escapes the propagule, and therefore the interaction of the other souls, which is the very definition of Human Instrumentality. The only way for him to remove himself from Instrumentality would be to leave Unit 01. And since he's left Unit 01, he no longer commands Unit 01. He is no longer the pilot.

The reason why I say that this is the only way for Shinji to escape Instrumentality is because at this point Unit 01's only purpose was to be the propagule of souls. That was its defining role in the film. (The filmmakers didn't even allow Unit 01 to battle any Angels, further solidifying the fact that its only role in the film to be the propagule of souls.) Shinji couldn't have chosen a reality within instrumentality that didn't involve him piloting Unit 01, because even if he theoretically did, then he would still be in the propagule of souls, which is Unit 01 itself. And since Unit 01 would still be fulfilling Shinji's desires by allowing him to stay within itself, Shinji would still be piloting Unit 01 in this manner. It's a falsehood.

Therefore, the only way to truly escape piloting Unit 01 is to escape Instrumentality itself. And if Shinji said that he would reject piloting Eva Unit 01, and if that became an actual reality, then the only conclusion is that, by accepting a reality in EoTV where Shinji doesn't pilot the Eva, then Shinji also escaped Instrumentality, just like he did in EoE.

Now, again, I still believe that Unit 01 has an important role in EoTV's Instrumentality as it did in EoE's instrumentality. After all, if it didn't, does Shinji struggling with piloting Unit 01 carry any actual weight in EoTV? If Instrumentality doesn't involve Unit 01, then Shinji struggling with the need to pilot it seems like a worthless things to struggle with. He's in Instrumentality! Unit 01 isn't even there! Why would he be bothering himself with Unit 01 if it wasn't even involved with Instrumentality to begin with? If that's the case, then it's not only bad story-telling, but also completely illogical. Therefore, in order for the story to have even some remote form of logic to it, Unit 01 needs to have a role in Instrumentality in EoTV. If Shinji is in Instrumentality in EoTV, and he's still struggling with the idea of piloting Unit 01, then that must mean that Unit 01 is still involved in Instrumentality in some way in order for Shinji to need to worry about it as much as he does. It's just plain and simple logic.

However, I still feel that EoTV is not a 1:1 tie in to EoE. There are character details in the beginning of EoE that end up changing the tone of the entire ending to something far less joyous than EoTV's triumphant "Congratulations!" That's a difference worth noting and considering. But, given the accurate translations and the fact that Unit 1 is involved in both EoTV and EoE, I feel as though the "real world in both endings" context allows us to better consider and discuss the tonal contrast and differences in character details between the two endings.

[Bagheera]

I believe the "propagule of souls" business is another mistranslation. If it's the line I'm thinking of both Reichu and Symbv have translated it as "embryo of life", which has a completely different connotation. It indicates that Yui is becoming something else (a Seed of Life) and doesn't refer to what's going on at that moment vis-à-vis 3I. IOW, "Yui is becoming a Seed of Life --> She will ultimately take over this process from Lilith --> The only one who can influence her now is Unit 01's pilot --> Our future lies in the hands of Ikari's son."

[NemZ]

(I really doubt that Gendo was smiling because he knew that Shinji would have to sit the next couple battles out. There's no reason for that kind of smile of that's the case.)

Having Unit 01 do something as drastic as eat an S2 engine while Gendo smiles deviously only to amount to Shinji sitting in the dugout during a couple Angel fights is a total narrative rip off.

That wasn't my point. It serves a narrative goal for Anno, not within the story. Gendo is happy to see his favorite eva get a powerup and more evidence of Yui having influence on events to help him... though it makes me really wonder about her personality with these wild berserker moments. Putting 01 on lockdown does not actually serve his purposes other than keeping it safe. Seeing Shinji back and motivated is a bonus though, especially since the dummy plug has turned out to be less than hoped for.

It only seems all that drastic because you're aware of what it enables in EoE. Without all that rigmarole it can be chalked up as just more evidence that evas are dangerous, barely controlled savage monsters. All this establishes is that Yui is more and more likely to act on her own and that they can't just pull the plug anymore. The whole 'clock is running out' thing is just an artificial dramatic tension device anyway, and unit01 is never again in a position where it matters so taking it away changes nothing (and going berserk when the power was out already did this anyway) while still giving it free 'cool points' for fans.

Right before Instrumentality begins in EoE, we see Yui -who is inside Unit 01- directly ask Shinji "What do you wish for?" Shinji responds with what he wanted, and Yui made it so in Instrumentality.

We see Yui overlaid for a moment, yes, but it's unclear whether then following "What do you wish for?" is coming from her or from Rei. The copy of the script I have attributes the second line to Rei though, and that makes sense to me. Rei/Lilith certainly seems to be the one running the show so I think it's a good assumption that She's the one making things happen, not Yui. All the souls are going to Rei and her black moon, not unit 01... Yui is just along for the ride until the end, and the extent to which Shinji has a say on anything is entirely because Rei cares about him as a person, not because he's a pilot of anything.

[Bagheera]

It only seems all that drastic because you're aware of what it enables in EoE.

Say what? It seems that drastic because of the nature of the scene, and because we know what it enables the Angels to do. Given that it cannot be written off as easily as you describe.

Also, my previous post re: the "propagule of souls" belongs in the mistranslations thread, not here.

[GoatJesus]

Wait a minute...

In reference to "this 'real world'," Shinji is discussing a reality in which he doesn't pilot the Eva. So when Shinji mentions his acceptance of reality towards the end, is he referring to the reality in which he isn't an Eva pilot? Because that's not the real world that's depicted in EoE. Unit 01 is still there, Yui still resides in it, and the real world is still suffering from the aftermath of Shinji being an Eva pilot. This doesn't seem like the reality where Shinji isn't an Eva pilot.

I mean, I guess it could also mean that Shinji will return to the real world where he won't be an Eva pilot anymore, but then we're back to the ending being ambiguous all over again. I'm not trying to force the ambiguity, mind you. Hell, I'd love to have this thing clear up. (In fact, I think I might change the sub files for the NGE Blu-ray to better match this more accurate translation, as I do believe that this is an important distinction to make.) Also, I find that this question of whether or not Shinji accepted instrumentality to be of lesser importance that the question behind the differing tones of the two endings. But it's just that when Shinji says "The me right now is not exactly me, itself" and then talks about how other possibilities of himself can be "real," and then returns to the "real world," it still seems like a very loose usage of the term, and therefore still somewhat ambiguous as to what it's actually referring to.

The inclusion of the possibility of Shinji not needing to be an Eva pilot in relation to the "real world" confuses me the most, I guess. If Shinji meant that he didn't have to pilot the Eva anymore, well, that decision's been made for him regardless of whether or not he leaves Instrumentality. Unit 01 no longer needed Shinji as a pilot after Instrumentality commenced, right? Unless.....

Wait...... Hold on.......... Holy Shit, I get it now! Shinji was piloting Unit 01 during instrumentality. He may not have been in his physical human form, but Unit 01 was the vessel for all souls, and Shinji was still influencing its actions throughout Instrumentality. Fuyutsuki even explained this when he stated before Third Impact "Our future lies in the hands of Ikari's son." In this sense, even though it is only by his wishes, Shinji is still piloting Eva Unit 01, despite the fact that he's no longer in his human form.

Through the Evangelion, Shinji's actions and decisions determined the course of Instrumentality.

Through the Evangelion, Shinji's actions and decisions could only determine the course of Instrumentality.

The only way for Shinji to get out of Instrumentality was by not being an Evangelion pilot anymore.

He couldn't have chosen a "reality" within Instrumentality where he didn't pilot Eva Unit 01, because that's impossible, That's not how Instrumentality works.

And by refusing to pilot Eva Unit 01, he is finally able to escape his mother, literally birthing himself back into the world.

This explains how EoTV ties more closely in with EoE's ending than I had initially thought.

My God, this is amazing!

But I still find the tonal contrast between EoTV's ending and EoE's ending significant enough to consider them different endings. As I said before, I still find that contrast to be the more important aspect of this show's approach to concluding the story than where Shinji was at the time he was feeling that way. Evangelion is more about emotions than it is about locations. But at least I now have a more concrete context in which to consider the contrasting tones and messages of the different endings, and that helps a lot!

Thank you, GoatJesus!

(Sorry for the rambling nature of this post, but I was literally trying to think through this and solve it while I was typing, and I didn't feel like going back and editing any of it.)

This is honestly a brilliant way of looking at it. Thank you! <3