Mistranslations in Evangelion

[robersora]

Looky look!
It's a video about mistranslations in Evangelion. I didn't know, where to share, but I found it interesting enough to do so, so I parked it in the general video thread.
Might be nothing new for many Evageeks, but for me it was a revelation of lots of misinterpretations, since the German version of EoE avoided those trappings thankfully. (NGE is a different story)

[Bagheera]

Looky look!
It's a video about mistranslations in Evangelion. I didn't know, where to share, but I found it interesting enough to do so, so I parked it in the general video thread.
Might be nothing new for many Evageeks, but for me it was a revelation of lots of misinterpretations, since the German version of EoE avoided those trappings thankfully. (NGE is a different story)

This guy gets it. The first one is a pretty serious blow to the concurrency debate, as there's no reason to think Shinji would embrace Instrumentality given a proper translation of that line. The second is a more elegant translation than what we have, but I don't think it's a game-changer in terms of plot or theme -- it just clarifies things. The third is, well, not news. I wish he'd dome something with the well of souls/embryo of life business, to say nothing of some analysis of the added material in 25'. Those two are the points most in need of clearer translation IMO, since they have direct implications for the plot of the show. The two he chose, not so much.

But still, great video. I'll be checking out his other works, as he seems to have a clue or two (and as I recall he occasionally pops his head up here, so maybe we can hope for some Discussion material? That forum's been slow lately . . . ).

[robersora]

^
What do you think? While German we thankfully have a pretty accurate phrase containing all connotations "kimochi warui" has ("Mir ist schlecht"), the English language is sadly lacking. I'd ditch the line entirely in the dub and replaced it with a disgusted grunt.

Yeah, he has some nice videos. I especially like his video about FLCL.

[Ray]

Goatjesus strikes again!

[GoatJesus]

This guy gets it. The first one is a pretty serious blow to the concurrency debate, as there's no reason to think Shinji would embrace Instrumentality given a proper translation of that line. The second is a more elegant translation than what we have, but I don't think it's a game-changer in terms of plot or theme -- it just clarifies things. The third is, well, not news. I wish he'd dome something with the well of souls/embryo of life business, to say nothing of some analysis of the added material in 25'. Those two are the points most in need of clearer translation IMO, since they have direct implications for the plot of the show. The two he chose, not so much.

But still, great video. I'll be checking out his other works, as he seems to have a clue or two (and as I recall he occasionally pops his head up here, so maybe we can hope for some Discussion material? That forum's been slow lately . . . ).

Heyo! I really need to explore this place more.

Yeah.

I'm lurking.

Anyhow~ These 3 were the most important to me on a personal level--and something I have argued about with others. It was very self indlugent since I could have gone into some other translations like the time Misato and Shinji drive in a car and Misato explains a nuance about the Angels that's absent from English translations (which is that the Angels cannot co-exist with one another.) I still think #2 was very important--since I've seen SEVERAL analysis/review channels misinterpret (at, least--I feel they've misinterpreted the scene,) and then summarize the entire film to some sort of Nihilistic waste of time (usually in combination with the last scene.) I think that's hugely important. At least it is to me. The last one was mainly just trying to show how the Japanese language is sometimes more nuanced and beyond translation. Which I feel can extend to the brief mention I made with "suki." So I chose to give it a shot with those! Besides, I have a lot of material to make a second video about Eva and its translations. Maybe those will be more important for you? I'd love to take some suggestions though to go over some stuff you'd want clarified with Michisuke. Thanks a bunch!

[Bagheera]

Anyhow~ These 3 were the most important to me on a personal level--and something I have argued about with others. It was very self indlugent since I could have gone into some other translations like the time Misato and Shinji drive in a car and Misato explains a nuance about the Angels that's absent from English translations (which is that the Angels cannot co-exist with one another.) I still think #2 was very important--since I've seen SEVERAL analysis/review channels misinterpret (at, least--I feel they've misinterpreted the scene,) and then summarize the entire film to some sort of Nihilistic waste of time (usually in combination with the last scene.) I think that's hugely important. At least it is to me. The last one was mainly just trying to show how the Japanese language is sometimes more nuanced and beyond translation. Which I feel can extend to the brief mention I made with "suki." So I chose to give it a shot with those! Besides, I have a lot of material to make a second video about Eva and its translations. Maybe those will be more important for you? I'd love to take some suggestions though to go over some stuff you'd want clarified with Michisuke. Thanks a bunch!

With the second one I think it's less critical since there's enough surrounding context that, no matter the translation of that line, any reasonable reading of the show will tell us that a hopeful message was intended (see all the business with Rei and Kaworu, Shinji's discussion with Yui, etc). Reasonable minds might disagree as to whether or not that message is realistic given the circumstances, but the intent is fairly clear. With the first example, by contrast, things in EoTV are confusing enough that a mistranslation there can throw off the whole meaning of the final two eps, which is why even now we have diehards who insist that EoTV was Gendo's good end and an effective hard takeoff resulting in some sort of post-human collective intelligence. A proper translation of that line shows this is very much not the case, which is why I consider that line so much more important.

As to future efforts for clarification: there is the sequence where Fuyutsuki is commenting on the fusion of the Spear of Longinus with Unit 01 in EoE, where he called the combined being the Well of Souls in the English version and (perhaps) the Embryo of Life in the original Japanese. Clarification on intent and meaning would be very helpful there. Also, the lake scene in the DC version of episode 25 is extremely confusing, as it has Seele telling Kaworu the reborn body of Adam now resides in Gendo Ikari. But if that's the case why would he expect the giant in TD to be Lilith? It doesn't really follow. Since the lake scene is added material that suggests Anno added it for a reason, but the addition creates what appears to be a fundamental plot hole in the show. If this is less of a big deal depending on the nuances of the language used in the scene that might help sort out a lot of thorny discussions.

[GoatJesus]

With the second one I think it's less critical since there's enough surrounding context that, no matter the translation of that line, any reasonable reading of the show will tell us that a hopeful message was intended (see all the business with Rei and Kaworu, Shinji's discussion with Yui, etc). Reasonable minds might disagree as to whether or not that message is realistic given the circumstances, but the intent is fairly clear. With the first example, by contrast, things in EoTV are confusing enough that a mistranslation there can throw off the whole meaning of the final two eps, which is why even now we have diehards who insist that EoTV was Gendo's good end and an effective hard takeoff resulting in some sort of post-human collective intelligence. A proper translation of that line shows this is very much not the case, which is why I consider that line so much more important.

As to future efforts for clarification: there is the sequence where Fuyutsuki is commenting on the fusion of the Spear of Longinus with Unit 01 in EoE, where he called the combined being the Well of Souls in the English version and (perhaps) the Embryo of Life in the original Japanese. Clarification on intent and meaning would be very helpful there. Also, the lake scene in the DC version of episode 25 is extremely confusing, as it has Seele telling Kaworu the reborn body of Adam now resides in Gendo Ikari. But if that's the case why would he expect the giant in TD to be Lilith? It doesn't really follow. Since the lake scene is added material that suggests Anno added it for a reason, but the addition creates what appears to be a fundamental plot hole in the show. If this is less of a big deal depending on the nuances of the language used in the scene that might help sort out a lot of thorny discussions.

I agree. I think the context *around* the second pick is what makes it clear. The music, the tone, the context...of course it's clear. But for some people--for whatever reason--it's not. It baffles me.

Anyway, thanks so much for the suggestions! I was going to tackle the DC scene, yeah. That ones confuses me too. The one about the spear is definitely a great suggestion as well. Thank you! <3

[Mr. Tines]

That first one has been sitting in the Literal Translation Project version of 26 since forever.

Shinji: I've got it. This is also a world.
The possibility within me.
The me at the moment is not always the me as I am.
There are many of myself.
Yes. There must be a me who is not an Eva pilot.

Misato: Considering that, the real world itself is not always bad.

Shinji: The real world might not always be bad.
But, I hate myself.

Makoto: It's your mind that conceives that the reality is bad
and hateful.

Shigeru: The mind which confuses Reality with the Truth.

[GoatJesus]

That first one has been sitting in the Literal Translation Project version of 26 since forever.

Well, tbh--I didn't even know this existed. Plus we had a *slightly* more accurate approach. It's better to get this sort of out to the public anyway.

[The Eva Monkey]

Heyo! I really need to explore this place more.

Yes, you should. How else are we going to be bestest friends?

Enjoyed the video by the way, it's great to see something fresh like this, especially in video format.

[Mr. Tines]

That first one has been sitting in the Literal Translation Project version of 26 since forever.

And this part was actually cited in our very first concurrency thread, within days of the EvaMonkey Forums being open for business.

Makes me wonder what other things like that have become similarly buried over the last decade-plus.

[Rei IV]

Well with these recent revelations, End of Evangelion isn't so bad like I thought it was. Still was rather upsetting, though.

[Mr. Tines]

For the second one, bochan_bird's translation retains the impersonal stance of the actual words spoken

Shinji (releasing Misato's cross from his left hand):
But... this isn't right. I don't think this is right.

Rei:
If you wish once more for the existence of others, the barriers of the heart will separate everyone once more...
And the fear of other people will begin again.

Shinji:
That's all right...

and from which point we can argue the nuance between implicit "for thee" vs "for you in the role of everyman". I do remember, when I was transferring that translation to pre-existing timed subs using the Manga Ent translation, for use with the BD, this part of the script being one where the two diverged significantly.

As for the final line -- "You make me sick!" would convey the "Blame Shinji for everything" message(s), but close off the "It all sucks." reading.

[GoatJesus]

For the second one, bochan_bird's translation retains the impersonal stance of the actual words spoken

and from which point we can argue the nuance between implicit "for thee" vs "for you in the role of everyman". I do remember, when I was transferring that translation to pre-existing timed subs using the Manga Ent translation, for use with the BD, this part of the script being one where the two diverged significantly.

As for the final line -- "You make me sick!" would convey the "Blame Shinji for everything" message(s), but close off the "It all sucks." reading.

I actually had Michisuke give me a reason for this, which I transcribed in the video: https://gyazo.com/720d3b8c76623b42a05f8fad90ea96d4 You'd put "you" because of the way the sentence structure is actually formed and the context which it exists in. But I mean, I'd feel most comfortable if she talked with the person who translated this EoE script as to the actual meaning and intention etc.

Yeah. The final line is a doozey in general. It's hard to say what *should* be done with it.

BTW, I messed up a transcription--which I just fixed in the video via annotation. They're right in the Ep 26 translation with "but I hate myself," I just transcribed it wrong for whatever reason and missed it. -_- It's "でも自分は嫌いだ," which "でも" means "but," "自分" means "myself," and "嫌い" means dislike. "は" is a linking (if I remember correctly,) word and "だ" is a way to end the sentence with assertion. I had this actually told to me, so I have no idea why I wrote that out incorrectly as "But I hate it." Sorry. My bad. Though I'm certain this is the only error. At least, that I could have been aware of personally.

And this part was actually cited in our very first concurrency thread, within days of the EvaMonkey Forums being open for business.

Makes me wonder what other things like that have become similarly buried over the last decade-plus.

If you have any scripts for 21-26, I'd very much appreciate that. Especially Director's Cuts.

Yes, you should. How else are we going to be bestest friends?

Enjoyed the video by the way, it's great to see something fresh like this, especially in video format.

Haha. Thanks. I hope that I can get the ball rolling and attempt to do more. I've dabbled in translations for some years now and always mentioned ones that I'm aware of (Like in fullmetal alchemist 2003/brotherhood.) I'd be great to showcase them though from now on.

[robersora]

"嫌い" means dislike.

"嫌い" (kirai) is flat out hate. In fact, it's such a strong word, people would never use it in normal conversation. The Kanji is pure negativity, it shows up in words as 嫌 (iya) detestable, 嫌らしい (iyarashii) disgusting; filthy; repulsive; detestable; unpleasant; disagreeable, lewd; lascivious; indecent; obscene; filthy; dirty or 嫌がらせ (iyagarase) harassment. In Owarimonogatari's Sodachi arc, there's even a two page spread, where on one page, there's only 嫌い (kirai) hate, on the other there's 嫌だ, which is a way of saying "no way, I can't believe it (it's so apalling). It's a word for hate, so strong, it's something people would yell when getting raped in Japan. So it's really "I detest/hate myself" Dislike is just much to kind.

Of course, in Anime, characters throw that word round in many occasions... I'd go even so far to compare it to the use of "fucking" in American pop culture. But this is Eva, and it boasts (for Anime standards) with rather complex, nuanced but still somehow naturalistic dialogue. So this kirai just has to be translated as hate.

"だ" is a way to end the sentence with assertion.

Yes, and no. It's an informal sentence ender. It implies, he's talking to someone he knows pretty well.

"は" is a linking (if I remember correctly,) word

"は" (hiragana ha, if used as a particle wa) is the topic marker. It describes the topic of the sentence for the word directly preceding it.
so "自分は" would literally be: regarding myself. Sounds wonky, so in English we just take myself as it suffices for a subject in a sentence.

Source: Ok at Japanese, bad at Kanji (but I can look them up)

If you have any scripts for 21-26, I'd very much appreciate that. Especially Director's Cuts.

Me too, the spoken sentence of Seele talking about Gendou is using such strange words and terminology, it's kinda difficult to decipher what they exactly mean without the Kanji.* Strangely enough, the sentence (although creating a big plot hole) is translated correctly, when hearing it. Then I decided to look for homophones of the words... And it would open up possibilities for different translations. It depends on the Kanji, really.
*(As expected from Seele)

[GoatJesus]

"嫌い" (kirai) is flat out hate. In fact, it's such a strong word, people would never use it in normal conversation. The Kanji is pure negativity, it shows up in words as 嫌 (iya) detestable, 嫌らしい (iyarashii) disgusting; filthy; repulsive; detestable; unpleasant; disagreeable, lewd; lascivious; indecent; obscene; filthy; dirty or 嫌がらせ (iyagarase) harassment. In Owarimonogatari's Sodachi arc, there's even a two page spread, where on one page, there's only 嫌い (kirai) hate, on the other there's 嫌だ, which is a way of saying "no way, I can't believe it (it's so apalling). It's a word for hate, so strong, it's something people would yell when getting raped in Japan. So it's really "I detest/hate myself" Dislike is just much to kind.

Of course, in Anime, characters throw that word round in many occasions... I'd go even so far to compare it to the use of "fucking" in American pop culture. But this is Eva, and it boasts (for Anime standards) with rather complex, nuanced but still somehow naturalistic dialogue. So this kirai just has to be translated as hate.


Yes, and no. It's an informal sentence ender. It implies, he's talking to someone he knows pretty well.


"は" (hiragana ha, if used as a particle wa) is the topic marker. It describes the topic of the sentence for the word directly preceding it.
so "自分は" would literally be: regarding myself. Sounds wonky, so in English we just take myself as it suffices for a subject in a sentence.

Source: Ok at Japanese, bad at Kanji (but I can look them up)


Me too, the spoken sentence of Seele talking about Gendou is using such strange words and terminology, it's kinda difficult to decipher what they exactly mean without the Kanji.* Strangely enough, the sentence (although creating a big plot hole) is translated correctly, when hearing it. Then I decided to look for homophones of the words... And it would open up possibilities for different translations. It depends on the Kanji, really.
*(As expected from Seele)

Thanks for clearing this stuff up. :\ I'm not that great with Japanese on my own tbh. Probably know more than your average Jo, but still not great. This is why I need Michisuke instead of embarrassing myself. Hey! I'd appreciate the help with future projects if you'd be interested in giving a second opinion.

[robersora]

Thanks for clearing this stuff up. :\ I'm not that great with Japanese on my own tbh. Probably know more than your average Jo, but still not great. This is why I need Michisuke instead of embarrassing myself. Hey! I'd appreciate the help with future projects if you'd be interested in giving a second opinion.

Sure, just contact me. Just that you know, neither English, nor Japanese are my native languages, but I might be a greater geek than Michisuke

[Mr. Tines]

If you have any scripts for 21-26, I'd very much appreciate that. Especially Director's Cuts.

The LTP covers all the on-air scripts as published in EVANGELION ORIGINAL. Unsurprisingly, that means it does not have the DC material, for which I've only seen the ADV Platinum transcriptions. As a translation, the LTP has generally been considered un-nuanced -- but that is because it is a literal translation.

[GoatJesus]

The LTP covers all the on-air scripts as published in EVANGELION ORIGINAL. Unsurprisingly, that means it does not have the DC material, for which I've only seen the ADV Platinum transcriptions. As a translation, the LTP has generally been considered un-nuanced -- but that is because it is a literal translation.

This will be an invaluable shortcut when making these kinds of translation videos. I'll still go over everything with others to make doubly sure and to get explanations as to why the translations are the way they are, but yeah. This is splendid! Thanks so much!

[Mr. Tines]

Tangent split