If he's actually alive... [Kaji and Misato's relationship]

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Re: If he's actually alive... [Kaji and Misato's relationship]

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Postby Reichu » Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:55 am

The use of names in anime and manga is first and foremost a stylized form of Japanese modes of address, intended to let the audience quickly infer things about character relationships. So if you find out that these old lovers are on an entirely last name basis, that right there tells you that there's a lingering distance between them. As their relationship is explored (esp. in the original series, as 2.0 has little time for such things...), we see that this is the case with Misato and Kaji. Immediately, we know that they're keeping each other at arm's length. "Kaji-kun" is the sort of thing a woman would call a male colleague or friend, less so a lover; while "Katsuragi" is in this weird limbo between not exactly polite and not exactly casual. Coming up with reasons why they'll never, ever go on a first name basis seems quite beside the point: if they ever actually DID make that shift, the whole point would BE to signify that their relationship has reached a new level.
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Re: If he's actually alive... [Kaji and Misato's relationship]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:18 am

We see lost potential in the show, when it comes to their relationship. Kaji gives a very heartfelt message to Misato, and Misato cries bitterly. (Also, Misato does use the term "Kaji-cun, but only as one of her last, dying words. I swear that moment is one of the saddest in the Eva franchise.)

Also, I doubt whatever closeness Kaji and Ritsuko had was ever sexual. Kaji's a player, and has even chased after Maya before ever considering Ritsuko. Though, I do wonder on what level their relationship is.
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Re: If he's actually alive... [Kaji and Misato's relationship]

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Postby Reichu » Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:07 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Kaji's a player

He talks the talk, but does he actually walk the walk?
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Re: If he's actually alive... [Kaji and Misato's relationship]

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Postby Rei IV » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:23 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:He talks the talk, but does he actually walk the walk?

Misato was the only woman he ever loved, so NOPE. Kaji's "player" status is probably just a facade as Misato's "sluttyness".

BTW, Reichu I damned near reported your post trying to quote you. It's still taking some time to adjust to the new forum style.

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Re: If he's actually alive... [Kaji and Misato's relationship]

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Postby IfallOnTragedy » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:32 pm

I never meant to imply that Kaji and Ritsuko enjoy a sexual or intimate relationship or have in the past, just that they enjoy teasing each other (or probably Misato, seeing how easy it is to tease Misato. Maybe Kaji and Ritsuko think it's funny to call each other cute names and see Misato's reaction). Another point that sometimes, normal Japanese naming conventions do not have to be taken so by the books literally, in some situations they apply in different, alternate ways to make a point or show irony.

View Original PostReichu wrote:The use of names in anime and manga is first and foremost a stylized form of Japanese modes of address, intended to let the audience quickly infer things about character relationships. So if you find out that these old lovers are on an entirely last name basis, that right there tells you that there's a lingering distance between them. As their relationship is explored (esp. in the original series, as 2.0 has little time for such things...), we see that this is the case with Misato and Kaji. Immediately, we know that they're keeping each other at arm's length. "Kaji-kun" is the sort of thing a woman would call a male colleague or friend, less so a lover; while "Katsuragi" is in this weird limbo between not exactly polite and not exactly casual. Coming up with reasons why they'll never, ever go on a first name basis seems quite beside the point: if they ever actually DID make that shift, the whole point would BE to signify that their relationship has reached a new level.


Yes, but like I said Kaji wants everyone to refer to him by a last name basis and not his first name, because Misato is not the only person who calls him Kaji. So to suddenly call him Ryoji would be uncharacteristic. (And who knows, maybe Kaji likes the sound of Katsuragi better than Misato.) Anyway, my point was that if Kaji and Misato are still calling each by their surnames in Final, that doesn't somehow mean they still have distance in their relationship, if their interactions in the movie prove otherwise.

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Re: If he's actually alive... [Kaji and Misato's relationship]

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Postby Reichu » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:02 pm

View Original PostIfallOnTragedy wrote:Yes, but like I said Kaji wants everyone to refer to him by a last name basis and not his first name, because Misato is not the only person who calls him Kaji.

Being as the show hasn't made a point of having him correct someone who called him "Ryoji", I don't think you can jump to this conclusion. It's Japan; personal names are used much more sparingly than in the West. At most, we can assume he doesn't have a strong enough preference to correct those who call him "Kaji" (as per "Misato/Kaworu is fine"), but this could indicate absolute indifference as much as anything.

So to suddenly call him Ryoji would be uncharacteristic.

Where are you getting "suddenly"? Fifteen years have happened!
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Re: If he's actually alive... [Kaji and Misato's relationship]

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Postby IfallOnTragedy » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:43 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:It's Japan; personal names are used much more sparingly than in the West. At most, we can assume he doesn't have a strong enough preference to correct those who call him "Kaji" (as per "Misato/Kaworu is fine"), but this could indicate absolute indifference as much as anything.


Where are you getting "suddenly"? Fifteen years have happened!


"Ryoji" is only used once in the whole show when Misato says his full UN title. Ryocchan does not count because it's not Ryoji and Kaji calls Ritsuko her own nickname (Ricchan). But, and there's the important part, otherwise when Ritsuko refers to Kaji she calls him "Kaji-kun". It's obvious that Kaji is only referred to as Kaji by everyone who knows him and no one refers to him by his first name. Thus, we can infer that Kaji introduces himself as Kaji and not Ryoji. He's the only character in the show who is referred exclusively by his lastname.

Suddenly is not the point, it's just that Misato and Kaji calling themselves by their surnames is not necessarily a indication of their interpersonal trust level, especially if they are shown very close in the last movie but still referring to each other they way they normally did.

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Re: If he's actually alive... [Kaji and Misato's relationship]

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Postby Reichu » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:00 pm

View Original PostIfallOnTragedy wrote:He's the only character in the show who is referred exclusively by his lastname.

If you aren't counting Fuyutsuki, Gendo, Hyuga, Naoko, and so on, maybe...
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Re: If he's actually alive... [Kaji and Misato's relationship]

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Postby IfallOnTragedy » Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:12 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:If you aren't counting Fuyutsuki, Gendo, Hyuga, Naoko, and so on, maybe...


All very minor characters with negligible minutes of onscreen time. In Gendo's case no one is really his equal or level, in age or rank, so it's obvious everyone will refer to him by his last name (Commander Ikari). Except for Mari, she calls him Gendo-kun.. probably because she actually is his colleague.

The point of my last name argument, that Misato and Kaji calling each other by their surnames in Final won't indicate level of distance, still stands, I think we are getting into the weeds here.

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Re: If he's actually alive... [Kaji and Misato's relationship]

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Postby Reichu » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:13 pm

View Original PostIfallOnTragedy wrote:All very minor characters with negligible minutes of onscreen time.

I'm pretty sure you said that Kaji was the ONLY character, not the only 'major' character... (Back-pedaling, much?) And counting Kaji as 'major' while excluding Gendo seems to signify that I shouldn't be taking anything you say seriously. :p

I probably should've figured from your first response (which effectively suggested that you already had all the answers about Misato and Kaji on hand) that this wasn't worth the trouble. Take back the thread, everyone -- I'm done here.
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Re: If he's actually alive... [Kaji and Misato's relationship]

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Postby IfallOnTragedy » Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:54 pm

What? I can't imagine anything I said in my posts should deserve that kind of response. I thought this was just a normal discussion; you couldn't convince me about your views so now "nothing I say should be taken seriously" and talking "is not worth the trouble"? Confuses me. I can't seem to convince you of my views but that doesn't bother me, it's natural.

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Re: If he's actually alive... [Kaji and Misato's relationship]

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Postby Merkaba » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:46 pm

Don't take what Reichu said to heart. She's done it to everyone at some point. You just have to let her act like that and disappear for a minute, and then everything gets better.

Anyway, while I want Kaji to be alive for the fourth film, I hope Anno is bold enough to have killed him off, off-screen in between 2.0 and 3.0.

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Re: If he's actually alive... [Kaji and Misato's relationship]

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Postby Sachi » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:42 pm

View Original PostMerkaba wrote:Anyway, while I want Kaji to be alive for the fourth film, I hope Anno is bold enough to have killed him off, off-screen in between 2.0 and 3.0.

If Kaji really did die between 2,0 and 3.0, and my theory about the continuity of the next time preview holds, then the quick cut of Kaji with the gun might have been our big clue.

It also means the donkey is canon. :ting:
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Re: If he's actually alive... [Kaji and Misato's relationship]

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Postby IfallOnTragedy » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:47 pm

View Original PostMerkaba wrote:Anyway, while I want Kaji to be alive for the fourth film, I hope Anno is bold enough to have killed him off, off-screen in between 2.0 and 3.0.


How would that make him bold, say you? I think that not killing Kaji off would be bold since Kaji's never survived a canon Evangelion universe and a dead Kaji is what everyone immediately expects.

Also I just really want to see what he looks like in his 40s too. Did he take a level in badass like his Wille friends or is he more of a worldly old dad type?

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Re: If he's actually alive... [Kaji and Misato's relationship]

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Postby Monk Ed » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:29 am

I don't think there's anything bold about killing off a character whose role was pretty minor in the first place. In fact, one of the things that really drew me to NGE (to divert briefly) was Touji's survival of the Bardiel incident. It told me that this was a show that wasn't afraid to do the unexpected, because Touji dying would have been the easy thing to do for cheap drama. The fact that the drama was so effective even without having to kill him off just went to show how well it was told. I think it was also good for the pacing of the story.

(Let's leave aside the fact that everything I saw as good coming out of it turned out to be essentially an accident -- which can be said for so much of NGE anyway.)

Also I think having Kaji turn out to have been dead the whole time wouldn't earn any boldness points regardless because Q already launched a megaton boldness cannon with its timeskip and the effects thereof. I can't help but feel that "Actually Kaji's dead too" would be barely even a footnote by comparison.
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Re: If he's actually alive... [Kaji and Misato's relationship]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:52 am

^ I feel Kaji dying at this point would have been a wasted opportunity. In NGE his character had time to grow in relationship with the pilots and retrace his relationship with the adults. If Kaji dies in these new movies, no one would care because the character hasn't really done anything other than tell Shinji to protect Misato. At this point it would be more emotionally telling of the films to kill off Mari in Shin Eva. In Ha and Q she's served as the backbone for the fun side of Eva, so killing her would be an effective way to tell the audience that the fun's over. Killing Kaji wouldn't tell the audience anything because the audience wouldn't know how to feel about that.
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Re: If he's actually alive... [Kaji and Misato's relationship]

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Postby IfallOnTragedy » Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:52 pm

^ Thats exactly why I think the Kaji name drop in 3.0 is supposed to tell the audience that Kaji is actually alive. I would say the percentage of him being alive is in the 95%.

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Re: If he's actually alive... [Kaji and Misato's relationship]

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:49 am

I used to think that Anno killing off Kaji & the others (Toji, Kensuke & Hikari) in the 14 year gap between films was the perfect decision.
Now I don't think that at all.

I really believe that it would be perfect narrative storytelling for Kaji to be the one who sits Shinji down & tells him what he needs to know. And Kaji would give Shinji the lowdown in a far more forgiving & appropriate way then Kaworu - let me take you to the top of a mountain & tell you that everything the light touches is dead because of YOU - & Fuyutsuki - let me sit you down in a room & tell you the girl you saved is actually dead & she really WAS replaceable like she told you - because he might be the one adult who never had a grand agenda with Shinji aside from "keep yourself & the people I love out of harm's way". I'm pretty certain that Kaji is alive.

Now I used to think it would be for the best if Toji, Kensuke & Hikari were also dead. I mean they're such superfluous characters at this point in the narrative that they don't really serve a point.... or do they?
With the 'Eva's Curse' actually being something I've come around - at first I felt it was just because Asuka wouldn't be as marketable to perverts if she was physically of age but now I'm appreciating it as the embodiment of Anno's fascination with Eva & anime being a cause for personal stagnation* - I think the one thing Shinji needs to drive that home is see someone he KNEW aged 14 years. Sakura doesn't count because he never knew her back in the "halcyon" days of the first two films. But, it would sure make for a wonderful dramatic beat if Shinji found himself sitting at a table across from a grown Toji & Kensuke. Shinji's painful self-hatred & personal isolation would be drastically increased once he find his two best friends are fully grown adults who have nothing in common with him - seriously, try talking to a 14 year old when you're a 30 - & have gone on to live full lives of their own. This realization for Shinji would of course be followed by a short cameo of Toji's wife, Adult Hikari & their cute kid, Shinji.)

*I also expect the 'Eva's Curse' to give Mari something to do in Final besides being awesome. A sequence where she tells Shinji "Eh, you can still live as you are now. I have since before you were born" or something along those lines.

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Re: If he's actually alive... [Kaji and Misato's relationship]

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Postby IfallOnTragedy » Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:17 am

I agree.

But my point was: it's very easy to theorize what Kaji will be doing and saying to Shinji (we've always been hearing how Kaji will likely give him the rundown of what happened, maybe show him some compassion) but very little theorizing about what Kaji will be doing and saying to Misato and what their relationship is like or will be like. More intense, less intense? Anno does not seem likely to break up a love interest pair, considering he made love interests arguably more important in Rebuild as something that defies time and repeats.

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Re: If he's actually alive... [Kaji and Misato's relationship]

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Postby Signer » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:35 am

I think Kaji is dead. Because Koji looks like someone, who would say that about dead man, because Asuka's dialogue with Misato about not having time to worry about one life would have another meaning, because watermelons are dead. But mostly because I don't believe, that after movie about consequences, the answer would be "but it isn't as bad as it looks!".
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