Is Shinji evil?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby zlink64 » Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:41 pm

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:As long as we're going off on a tangent about Shinji with regard to the specific example of Nazism and we're accepting it as a premise...

Shinji has limits. If there's something he really doesn't want to do, nothing's going to make him do it. I think that even if Shinji could be truly detached from whatever he was doing, it would not be a state of mind that he would be able to sustain for any great period of time. Sure, he'll pour Zyklon B into the showers easy as you please, but he's not going to do that forever. The reality of what he's doing is eventually going to catch up with him, he's going to break, and he's going to stop. Sachi's right.



All the versions of Shinji never question what they are doing in any meaningful way unless a close friend is involved or an angel or character forcibly makes him self-reflect. Realistically speaking I don't think we can reasonably expect him to have those luxuries in nazi germany and when left to his own devices Shinji will just float by, especially in an example like the one Reichu gives. To clarify my point wasn't to say he was bad like a super Nazi supporter. Only that his way of thinking, itself, makes him a "bad guy"(not sure if this is best phrase but w/e) because it's fundamentally just fucked up and the show makes me think (imo) that Shinji as person wouldn't be able stop himself. He literally needed a god like being to intervene to change him. Also I'm talking as if Shinji was real...I figured that's okay since we asking moral questions anyway. I don't wanna hear that "it only takes a god Rei armegeddon to change him only because it's fiction" unless there's a good reason to frame it that way because otherwise we'd be just cherry picky at that point.

Shinji would've been a nazi and he would've burned people at the stake during witch trials and he would've been a slave-owner and all it would take is someone telling him to do it.

And hypothetically if he did get lucky and things happen that make it all "catch up with him" , all we get is a Shinji that completely shuts down and who needs hot 27 year old old women to drag him around by the hand and who is completely okay with just letting the whole world go to shit as long as he doesn't have to do anything anymore in an effort to avoid any accountability/ personal responsibility.
hmmm

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Re: Is Shinji evil?

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:42 am

What show are you lot watching?

When does Shinji ever do something bad (or even much at all) until he's stopped? His problem is always refusing until persuaded by circumstances (not orders) - right from ep 1. He's more likely to refuse to do the right thing because he sees the potential for harm (Bardiel). The times he says "I'll do it because you tell me to" are <1> when he's just got more broken, and <2> when he's not actually being ordered anyway - i.e. hypothetical.
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Postby Sachi » Mon Feb 08, 2016 4:21 am

^ Another prime example is the very first episode. When ordered to pilot the Eva, his initial reaction was refusal. It wasn't until he realized that a highly injured Rei would have to do it in his place that he finally changed his mind. From the start, Shinji is not portrayed as someone who simply follows orders; even though it does make up quite a bit of his personality, he does have lines that he won't cross. For NTE, all of the "evils" that Shinji commits are when he's convinced that he's doing the right thing. As soon as he realizes the consequences of his actions, he is usually quite devastated by it. Also, in both major instances where his actions screw things up for everybody (N3I and 4I), he was acting on his own rather than following orders.

As Reichu said, if he was detached from the process, and was either ignorant of the consequences of his actions or highly convinced it was the right thing to do, then maybe he might end up going along with some pretty horrendous shit. However, he obviously wouldn't if he were directly involved in it and aware of what he was doing. If the circumstances have to be so exact to get him to go otherwise, then I think we're looking at some Oldboy-level of manipulation (or Gendo, hmmm... :chinscratch: ) that would destroy anybody, no matter how good they are.
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Re: Is Shinji evil?

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Postby xtr00kvltcorex » Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:50 pm

I'm sure I'm echoing sentiments already stated, but I've seen Shinji as a creature of impulse driven to protect or act in favor of those who show him love (Rei, Kaworu, Misato) with little (if any) rationale applied to his actions. As stated above, he doesn't consider consequences, nor is he likely even to understand them within the world he inhabits. He's the queen on a chessboard and Gendo has him be the proxy to use everyone as a pawn for that checkmate.
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Postby zlink64 » Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:14 pm

You guys are bunch of Shinji apologist lol.
Gonna paraphrase a lil bit

EP 1

Gendo :"If you are going to do it do it now if not then leave."

Choice is presented to Shinji...lets see what he does.

Angel attacks and the base shakes. Presumably everyone in the room is super aware of the danger including Shinji. Angel is practically banging on the front door.

Shinji just stands all confused. And based off his general aloofness it seems that all his focus is on his dad. He only cares about what his father thinks. Nothing else matters including being a "good guy" or doing the right thing.

Misato: "Get inside."

He questions why he comes. He literally doesn't know why. He has no reason except...that his father told him to come so he came.

Misato: "you mustn't run away" "You must confront yourself and you must confront your father."
Shinji: "I know that Misato but I just can't"

Misato is telling him what to do. Now that I think about it this is the same exact shit that happens in the elevator kiss scene...hadn't noticed that before. Shinji can't do anything and needs Misato to tell him what do. Luckily for him she is a positive mentor albeit perverted.
And supposedly he knows what to do but he can't which really means he just all kinds of confused. Way I interpret that line in general is he literally just doesn't know who he is so he's just like all "wtf" inside. There is inner conflict since he doesn't actually know what he wants or who he is. Mainly we should keep in mind he doesn't actually know what to do and is incapable of doing anything.

He just stands there and does nothing. Now at this point it might seem like he is being passive but he is in fact being incredibly passive aggressive and tremendously selfish considering that there is a giant monster outside.

Rei is introduce but not shown.

Shinji: "I knew it. I'm not needed after all."

This line implies the passive aggressive thing I mentioned. He would've done it had his father just begged a bit more. This is the same song and dance bullshit he pulls with Misato in later episodes Keep in mind he is being super duper childish and selfish in light of the giant monster situtation. My point is at this point it's basically implied what he wants to do is just arm bar his father into needing him and doesn't actually care about doing the right thing. And later on we learn what he really want is praise/approval. My point is on the inside he ain't no hero and he knows it and he is down for whatever as long as he gets Gendo's approval.

Then Rei is rolled out and choice is presented again to Shinji.
Pilot or let this girl who obviously can't pilot pilot.

Shinji:"I mustn't runaway(repeated).

He is just doing what Misato advised but here I would concede that what is doing is brave. Albeit it is ambiguos if it's really his choice. It's kind of in the middle. Like it's his choice even if he doesn't completely understand it and if Misato helped him a lot. She like directing him than telling him what to. Anyway I approve in general
BUT
Keep in mind this is only episode 1. All the irresponsible and selfish things he did in just this one scene he continues to do and he gets progressively worse not better; I'm still using lack of personal responsibility here as my main criteria to be a bad person. And I actually would go easy on Shinji in episode 1 because he can't help the way he is acting because he doesn't know who he is so during ep1-2 Shinji's identity=??? but once he starts to pilot eva officially he starts to place all his personal worth in the title Eva Pilot. Once Shinji decides that his identity=Eva Pilot that's when he really does starts alienate himself from any personal responsibility. And he does this for a huge chuck of the show.

I don't have reason to believe that this kind of person would need as much manipulation as you think Sachi. I think you give him too much credit so I guess we gotta agree to disagree on that since lot of that is just based on what ifs anyways and you excuse Shinji because of Gendo and I don't.
And I don't think Shinji is as passive as you describe Pwhodges. I mean what if the enemies where humans instead of angels. I'd imagine you wouldn't be as indifferent to Shinji's enemies in relation to my argument if they where humans instead of imaginary monsters. Also we know he'd be willing to kill strangers if they where the enmies because he kill his best friend Kaworu just because he is the enemy.


Full disclosure: I'm not a Shinji hater and never have been. Also I apologize for the sloppiness of this post.
Last edited by zlink64 on Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
hmmm

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Re: Is Shinji evil?

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Postby NemZ » Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:37 pm

If not for your earlier posts I'd assume you're just trolling. This is some extremely odd thinking.

Shinji isn't passive-aggressively trying to manipulate people in ep1 into giving him the right amount of praise before he will pilot. He's just terrified. The situation he's been dragged into makes no sense to him. He doesn't know anything about Misato except she's some degree of incompetent and she works for his dad, so why should he accept her advice/orders at face value? Considering he has zero training in how to do anything at all in a giant robot he's being quite reasonable in saying he isn't up to this task, and he quite rightly assumes that in an organization as big as this they have to have had someone else that can do it, meaning this entire situation was just another manipulation. It's only when he sees firsthand how truely desperate they are that he accepts, but it's clearly for Rei's sake and not because he really has any confidence.
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Postby zlink64 » Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:49 pm

lol I sound crazy. Promise I'm not trolling

I dunno man I don't really feel like I'm going that way out there given everything we know he does in later episodes and I did say in episode 1 i'st all kind of more forgivable. Plus and just to reclarify I'm not saying he bad person specifically because of his acts alone. It's mainly because of his way living. It is an extremely bad way of life. And put in another situation he could just as easily be perceived as a bad guy due to his way of living.
And even if he is being manipulated things are ultimately presented as his choice..they even let him quit. This what I mean by saying I don't use Gendo to excuse Shinji.
hmmm

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Postby Bagheera » Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:15 pm

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:lol I sound crazy. Promise I'm not trolling


Sure sounds like it. Your reasoning here is nonsensical, and utterly at odds with how "evil" is commonly defined (which all hinges on intent, not one's "way of living"). All sorts of arguments can be made as to whether or not Shinji's way of doing things is healthy, productive, or useful, to say nothing of the effects it may have on others, but the equate any of that to evil is to devalue the term. You wanna call Shinji an obstinate brat? Fine, fair cop. He is that. But to go from there to evil? Nope. The logic doesn't hold up. Not even a little bit.

(and that's not Shinji apologism, it's just, y'know, not going all Godwin on the topic. Because once you start with the Nazi comparisons you've pretty much gone beyond the pale.)
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Postby zlink64 » Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:33 pm

@bagheera I don't think you understood me or maybe you didn't read the other post I made or maybe I failed to be clear. I definitly wasn't trying to say he was evil. I said I wasn't even comfortable using the phrase "bad guy" from the beginning. And I used the nazi ezample to highlight why what I'm trying to describe should be considered "bad".

This is all I'm saying:

Shinji places his selfhood on external things instead of actually defining himself. For example "Eva pilot" or "Bad person"(like in EOE). As a result he lets others people or circumstances choose for him. HE absolves himself from any personal responsibility by either lying to himself with the delusion that he has no choice because of his external identifier and by refusing to acknowledge his ability to define himself or by completing removing himself from the situation. I.E he runs away from the truth or refuses to confront his mistakes and in general just plain cowardice. This way of being is I think immoral in as far as you can consider personal irresponsibility immoral. This is an auto pilot way of life. When you are on this kind of auto pilot life only two things happen. You become over time self destructive because you angst over your lack of self identity or in the worse case scenario you can become a person that can act out horrendous things with out much though while you lie to yourself.

And by the very end I don't think this is true any more. Only that it is true for most of the show and that given different circumstances it would be more apparent how bad this is but since he is the hero of the show it is easy to play this down.
hmmm

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:16 am

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:Shinji places his selfhood on external things instead of actually defining himself. For example "Eva pilot" or "Bad person"(like in EOE). As a result he lets others people or circumstances choose for him.


Except he doesn't. He's a passive sort, so he lets others push him around and tell him what to do. That much is true. But as others have noted he has limits, and when he runs up against them he absolutely will not budge. This is something Tsurumaki learned, straight from Anno, when making episode 19, and it changed his impression of the character greatly. In ep 1 he doesn't want to pilot, and refuses to do so no matter what -- until Rei is wheeled in. Then he changes his mind, because the line he wouldn't cross -- appeasing his father -- was changed when another life proved to be at stake. In ep 18 he refused to act, despite being told what to do, because he ran up against another line: he would not be used to take a human life, period (and in the original show he didn't even care whose life it was; all he knew was that it was some other kid just like him). In the NTE we see this obstinance manifest in another way: in Ha he decided he was gonna save Rei, come hell or high water, and in Q he decided he was gonna fix the world, no matter what anyone else said. In these cases he is myopic, and foolish, and obstinate, but he is hardly defining himself by external things, much less letting others tell him what to do (oh, if only he did!). He is doing what he wants to do, and doesn't care about anything else. And, yes, that proves to be quite destructive, but it's not because of "how he lives" or any of that rot -- it's because he was bullied into doing stupid things by his scumbag of a father.

As for cowardice, that is completely laughable. He gets back in the Eva after being boiled alive by Ramiel, so by what measure could that be called cowardice? He gets in the Eva to fight Zeruel after watching is dismember Unit 02 and blast its way into the geofront with ease, how is this cowardice? In Q he stands up to Misato when he can't make sense of what's going on, and then chooses to pilot Unit 13 even though everyone and his grandmother have said it's a terrible idea. Foolish, yes. But cowardly? Cowardly? It's utter nonsense! When it comes to piloting and making critical decisions related to piloting Shinji is very brave and moral. He is stubborn, and unwilling to make compromises, and ultimately horribly misguided, but he is anything but a coward. His cowardice comes up when confronting his own insecurities, and his inability to communicate with and interact with others. It comes in his unwillingness to forgive himself for the damage he causes, childishly thinking he somehow had a choice or bears responsibility when he almost never did. In the original show and in the new movies up through Ha his decision-making was pretty solid. He just broke down afterward and, well . . .
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Re: Is Shinji evil?

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Postby xtr00kvltcorex » Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:00 am

I think this can be summed up to him being a fucked up teenager thrust into an extraordinary situation.

Tell me if you'd be aight fighting in a giant robot against a giant monster with no prior training after an emotional gut punch from your already fractured paternal relationship.

My guess is nah.
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Postby zlink64 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:53 am

I am willling to concede that Shinji has limits since you know it comes from Anno. But the fact is he killed his best friend (Kaworu) because of the Eva so we have proof that he is capable of doing messed up things because of Eva. And remember I'm only claiming that what I describe can lead to a person to do horrible things while they themselves are not necessarily horrible. I am not claiming that Shinji is a bad person by nature only that the way he has been living his life is immoral in the way I described in my last post.

Okay Im gonna try and back up my opinion with stuff from the show since I should've done it in my the last post.

EoE elevator Scene:
Misato: Shinji listen to me. From now on you're on you own. You'll have to make your own decision. No one can do it for you.

Emphasize is placed on Shinji's inability to make decisions on his own. And that he has stop letting others do it for him.

Shinji: "I can't I'm no good. I can't pilot if all I do is hurt and kill people. I though had no choice but to pilot eva but I was just lying to myself."I'm a bad person who just hurts people. blah, blah, I'm incapable of doing good,Blah, blah ....he just list justifications for why he is a bad person(paraphrasing). He is reinforcing this external identity of "bad person"

Shinji admits that he was lying to himself about having to be an eva pilot. But now instead of Eva Pilot he is identifying himself as bad person. He is literally saying "I am a bad person" so therefore I shouldn't do things like pilot eva and I'm incapable of doing good so I'll do nothing. He is lying to himself again and allowing this fake self identitifier dictate what actions he does or doesn't take.


Misato gives him some lines of tough love( I assume she does this to not give into Shinji's habit of looking for pitty and crying/do nothing)then says

Misato: "You hate yourself don't you thats why you hurt others. Deep down you now you suffer more when you cause some else pain than if you just let yourself get hurt. But Shinji that was your decision so it makes a valid choice. That's what you wanted. Stop lying to yourself and realize you do have options and then accept the choices you made.

This is Misato basically trying to convince Shinji to take responsibility for his choices and in addition she is trying to convince him that he does have choices. I.E he is capable of being good and not stuck being a bad person as he currently seems to think. There's options.

(Paraphrase)Shinji than tries to make more excuses and Misato get mad and makes him promise to not give up.
Note even at this point Misato has to push him because he still doesn't get it. He can't make the choice himself.

Misato: "For your own sake find out why you came here . Why you exist at all. ANswer your own question. WHen you found all your answers come back to me."

Misato emphasizes that Shinji needs to find out who he is; self identiy. And on figuring out stuff on his own; making his own choices.

Some more dialogue.
The kiss and she dies.

The ideas expressed in the elevator scene are scattered all through out the show & rebuild movies(although I got no specific memories from rebuild movies atm so don't give me the benefit of the doubt on that one)

The justification for Misato's ideas are expressed in Eotv for sure I think in EoE too..dont rember but basically any talk about subjective truth in relation to identity is really just them trying to explain why what Misato is saying is true but that is off topic.



Now I guess I could go easy Shinji but I feel like that would be me letting my bias get in the way and I actually do think the way he lives his life up until before the end is immoral. Maybe sinful is a better word. Not saying he himself is immoral or sinful only that his way of living is sinful in nature. Also when I said coward I only meant that things like him lying to himself and not acknowledging it is cowardly. When he says he is a bad person he is being cowardly.

Also could you link that things between Anno and Tsurumaki please. I don't think I've read that before and it sounds like something I would want to know.

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Yeah we could sum it up like that but where is the fun in that and there is practical purpose to this. I've never actually written any of my thoughts downs so this is helpful. Also if the military had giant robots when I was 18 I would've signed up in a heart beat lmao but that doesn't really have anything to do with this.
hmmm

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:12 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:and then chooses to pilot Unit 13 even though everyone and his grandmother have said it's a terrible idea.

Wait what? :huh:
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Postby pwhodges » Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:07 am

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:And supposedly he knows what to do but he can't which really means he just all kinds of confused. Way I interpret that line in general is he literally just doesn't know who he is so he's just like all "wtf" inside. There is inner conflict since he doesn't actually know what he wants or who he is. Mainly we should keep in mind he doesn't actually know what to do and is incapable of doing anything.

He just stands there and does nothing. Now at this point it might seem like he is being passive but he is in fact being incredibly passive aggressive and tremendously selfish considering that there is a giant monster outside.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make here: "supposedly he knows what to do but he can't" -> "he doesn't actually know what to do and is incapable of doing anything" -> "he is in fact being incredibly passive aggressive and tremendously selfish". Do you think he does or doesn't know how to pilot at this point? If he doesn't, it's not hard for him to imagine how much harm he could do in such an apparently powerful device he doesn't know how to control. How is it "tremendously selfish" not to do something you have literally no idea how to do?
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Postby zlink64 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:40 am

Yeah that post was really sloppy and I was kind just writing what came into my mind cause I wanted to see if my opinion of Shinji would be consitant. And might've said some dumb things or atleast explained in a stupid way.
But anyway the point I was trying to make is Shinji couldn't make choices and I didn't want people to assume he was because when He say "I know Misato" it almost sounds like it's his decision. Like he really has no idea what he is actually is doing in so far as in "why" and is literally just going forward, which is good imo, but it still just him in autopilot is what I was trying to say. And I know you can say it's because of Rei but from Shinji's perspective I don't think he thinks about it that way. Like if we where to ask him why he'd probably be like "I dunno" or say some thing like "they needed me to pilot eva" which is him just externalizing his autonomy at that point which is the problem.

And yeah your right about the him not being able to ride an eva but the scene just came off to me like that wasn't really the main problem Shinji was having so wasn't really focusing on that. Like it seemed more like Shinji was more concerned with his father more than any actually issues. Like I said was just writing off the top if you think I was looking at in a stupid way then sure no problem cause I probably was.

At this point just ignore that post if you want. I reexplained afterwards I think a lot more clearer so go off those if you wanna get what I'm trying to say.
hmmm

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:12 am

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:I am willling to concede that Shinji has limits since you know it comes from Anno. But the fact is he killed his best friend (Kaworu) because of the Eva so we have proof that he is capable of doing messed up things because of Eva. And remember I'm only claiming that what I describe can lead to a person to do horrible things while they themselves are not necessarily horrible. I am not claiming that Shinji is a bad person by nature only that the way he has been living his life is immoral in the way I described in my last post.


And I disagree completely for reasons I gave in my last post (and honestly, Kaworu is about the worst piece of evidence you could provide here, since Shinji's hand was forced in that position by literally everybody -- including Kaworu!).

The ideas expressed in the elevator scene are scattered all through out the show & rebuild movies(although I got no specific memories from rebuild movies atm so don't give me the benefit of the doubt on that one)


The ideas in the elevator scene come after Shinji's completely broken down and Misato is saying anything and everything to keep him in the game. It has nothing whatsoever with "how he lives his life" and everything to do with the fact that bad shit keeps happening to people who pilot Eva. That's on the Angels and the people who force him to pilot, not him.

And really? Sinful life? So, piloting again and again even though piloting puts him through hell is sinful? Piloting after he's forced to nearly kill a friend is sinful? Piloting after Asuka's mind is destroyed is sinful? Piloting after Rei's killed is sinful? Piloting after he's forced to kill Kaworu is sinful? You've got some messed up definitions going on here, man.

Also could you link that things between Anno and Tsurumaki please. I don't think I've read that before and it sounds like something I would want to know.


Google it. It's been discussed here on a number of occasions.

Edit: Bah, I'm feeling soft. You can find it here. Relevant quote:

"
Trurumaki wrote:Tsurumaki: But if we observe carefully, we feel confused. Even at that [earlier] time I realized that much. My interpretation was that, even though Shinji was saying he wouldn't pilot, he also understood that he had to pilot. As for his saying "I won't pilot," I believed that if he wasn't saying it he would certainly pilot. [? 4] As a result, although he was saying "I won't pilot, I won't pilot," his body was going towards the centre of the battle. Even though he came as far the Geofront, where the battle was raging, he was still saying "I won't pilot, I won't pilot." Then Unit-02's head falls down, and Unit-00 is damaged, and so on; and when [Shinji] goes outside Kaji is there, and they have a famous conversation. Finally, Shinji gives up and pilots, deciding that, "as I thought, I have to pilot... I knew it, but it was just as I expected." That sort of development was how I interpreted things.

[? 4] だから 「乗らないぞ」と言うのは、そうしないと乗ってしまうからだと。

--- That's also my interpretation, and, I think, the interpretation of countless viewers....

Tsurumaki: [There must be a] "however," right? When I was doing the storyboards for "Break," and went to confirm with Anno-san that portraying Shinji like this was good, I was emphatically told, "What are you talking about, Makki? This is completely wrong!" What a shock I received! (Laughs) Anno-san continues, "Shinji really doesn't want to pilot, and that's what he says." From my point of view Shinji's declaration "I won't pilot" was half a hate campaign against his father, a child and "da-da" type situation. It was the same as a child who had quarrelled with his father saying "If that's the case, I won't study!" Emotionally, Shinji doesn't want to pilot, but he understands that he has to. To that extent I had thought he was a "grown-up" character.

However, when I seriously thought over what Anno-san had said, I understood that Anno-san's Shinji is not like that. I understood that he was a character who, if he feels he doesn't want to pilot, absolutely will not pilot. Shinji is the exact opposite of what the conventional impression of him is. He is not cowardly and indecisive; he is obstinate and doesn't pay any mind to other people.
Last edited by Bagheera on Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:26 am, edited 4 times in total.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Is Shinji evil?

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:17 am

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:But the fact is he killed his best friend (Kaworu) because of the Eva so we have proof that he is capable of doing messed up things because of Eva.

Um, he killed the last angel. But as that was also Kaworu, who although not exactly a friend had the appearance of a fellow human being attempting to be friendly, he struggled with himself for possibly the longest pause in the history of anime before he could do it. But it was not "messed up" - it was the right thing to do, however hard it was for him to do it.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Shinji is the exact opposite of what the conventional impression of him is. He is not cowardly and indecisive; he is obstinate and doesn't pay any mind to other people."

In other words, exactly what is highlighted by the end of Ha and the whole of Q.
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Re: Is Shinji evil?

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Postby zlink64 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:25 am

1) It's actually great example. If it wasn't a good example Shinji wouldn't be so depressed about it. Him killing Kaworu is literally the worst case scenario in the problem I'm trying to describe about him going in autopilot mode.
2) I rather take dialogue that is very clear over your opinion. If you think My interpretation of those of the elevator scene lines are wrong than tell me very specifically why.
3) I didn't mean it religiously. I mean usually when people say immoral they mean character. When they sinful they mean the person just committed something wrong that isn't tied to their personal indiviuality. I mean that's how I see it anayway. I wasn't trying to confuse or bring up god. I'm a non believer.

And again I'm not saying his specfic actions are sinful only that his way of deciding upon those action is.
Also I got school and Im super later peaces if you write something ill respond while at school.

lol u softy
hmmm

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Re: Is Shinji evil?

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:28 am

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:2) I rather take dialogue that is very clear over your opinion. If you think My interpretation of those of the elevator scene lines are wrong than tell me very specifically why.


Because he's in the midst of a depressive breakdown at that point and not operating in the same fashion he has throughout the rest of the storyline. It's the same reason his strangling Asuka in the P3II sequence doesn't mean he's a psychotic killer.

And, frankly, I'd rather take quotes from the director over your convoluted reasoning. Those quotes make it clear that Shinji is not cowardly, and his performance in the show backs that up, so that's the end of it as far as I'm concerned.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Is Shinji evil?

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Postby xtr00kvltcorex » Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:41 pm

Unsure if it's been discussed but in reading these last few responses, has Shinji's actions ever been viewed through Nietzsche lens, specifically the Will to power. Much of Shinji's actions seem to back up and rail against that concept, additionally Rebuild's sequel possibility in the form of eternal recurrence. Given the general nature and tone of NGE and NTE, it seems Anno may incorporate such themes.
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