NTE v NGE - Are the messages/lessons the same? [split]

[Arcadia's legacy]

It would only be pointless if the message was the same, for which it is not. we see the characters learn their lessons early in 2.0 and we find that they (and we) have to learn a new message in 3.0 and Final

[zlink64]

Yeah but Shinji hasn't really learned anything yet and he is pretty much the same as before if we are going by "lessons learned". And he is the main character so his lesson is the one that matters the most if we are gonna compare. As of right now Shinji/Rebuild is the same thing message wise as old NGE.

[Arcadia's legacy]

Are you really sure about that?

[zlink64]

Kind of promised myself I wouldn't "over think" rebuild until all 4 are released so I haven't but yeah ...I'm Semi-sure. Won't be able to tell for sure-sure until we see the very end anyway; need all the info. I'm hoping I'm wrong lol.

[Arcadia's legacy]

I personally feel Anno is a smart enough filmaker to know that conveying the same message twice is pointless. why else would he make rebuild unless it was to do something completely new with EVA? (which is exactly what we see happen with 3.0)

[zlink64]

I can see why you think 3.0 is super different but it really isn't. Not for Shinji at least.

In 3.0 the most important thing narrative wise for Shinji is the time skip because it is the catalyst for him feeling alone and avoiding the people he knows. Then that loneliness butters him up for Kaworu which leads up to him being super emo and just not caring.

In the original show the same exact thing happens to Shinji but instead of a time skip we get a bunch separate but related incidents that all naturally progress to Shinji feeling alone.

Not in order because my memory is shoddy:
1)Asuka gets mind raped/super emo
2) Misato tries to have sex with him
3)The Toji incident and Shinji avoids him
4)Kaji dies: the only adult he really trusts
5)Shinji finds out Rei 2 is dead and she is a clone of his mother so he avoids Rei 3
6) Kensuke is around but he is incredibly dense and doesn't understand Shinji.
7)The city is evacuated

Then a lonely and buttered up Shinji meets Kawaruo.

All these things get replace by the time skip in Rebuild but in total they have the same exact effect on Shinji as the time skip/impact.

The only major difference between the show and rebuild/time skip thing in relation to Shinji is that in Eoe it seems like Shinji masturbating to Asuaka was the finale straw that leads him into super emo mode while in Rebuild it just starts right after Kaworo's death instead.

So you see Shinji is on the same exact path as before so far. The differences to me seem only plot related and not "Lesson" related. Lesson wise he is still exactly where he was before. This is why I want to be wrong. First time I saw Rebuild 3.0 all I could think is "same,same,same", I couldn't help it lol. Kinda ruined the experience for me. I would really prefer if 4.0 ended up being a sequel with a radically different ending instead of a retelling even if I disagree with the "message". For the sake of my enjoyment. As of right now though I don't think it's the case.

Also this was a long time ago but I vaguely remember Anno saying that the reason for the rebuild project was to bring back anime or to show that anime could be more than it is or raise the standard of anime because he though it was bad..or something like industry related. Don't remember exactly but it was something along those lines. So it may or may not be message related.

[ElMariachi]

Although I agree that Shinji still have a lesson to learn, I don't think that his lesson is the same than in NGE.
In NGE the lesson was to learn to love himself and to not reject others by fear of being hurt.
But that lessons doesn't seem to really fit with the situation in Rebuild.

Firstly because Shinji did learned that lesson: in 2.0 he's much more open to his friends than he ever was in NGE (look at the scenes where he hangs out with Touji and Kensuke in 2.0, or how he makes lunches for Rei) and he found his self-worth by choosing his reason to fight and pilot: not for the "others" because he was asked, certainly not for his father, but for the people he has come to care about (and thus in a sense for himself, since it's his reason to fight), which was shown when he tried to save Rei at the end of 2.0 of course, but also in 3.0 when he volunteered to pilot EVA-01 specifically to go help Asuka.

Sure, the events of 3.0 smacked his will to act with the force of a charging bull on steroids, but the fact remains that he learned the lesson. Hell even in neo-NERV he tries to continue to apply it with his trying to please Rei(Q) and to talk with her, and how he accepted to pilot EVA-13 and get aboard Kaworu's crazy plan (with the help of a little guilt-trip from the latter to make him take the first step that's right) to fix everything.

IMHO, the final lesson Shinji needs to learn in Rebuild is a meta continuation of the one he learned in NGE, as well as in 2.0: okay he learned to try to interact and form bond with people, but that still not enough to live with others, now what Shinji needs to learn is to get out of his own mental bubble and listen to others, even when they are in contradiction with you. The best example of what not to being of course the whole fiasco in Lilith's Chamber with the two spears. (although Asuka and Kaworu had their part of fault here by the same lack of communication, but since Kaworu is now dead, it only leaves Asuka to have another lesson, after all you never stop to learn as long as you're alive!)
You could say that in NGE and the first half of Rebuild the lesson has to be learned from introspection (with a literal case in NGE with Instrumentality) while the new lesson for the second half of Rebuild is one to be learned from extrospection by learning to interact with others.


Secondly, there's also the context that changed: even though the overall objective in NGE was to save the world, it was just a background to Shinji's own journey of self-discovery, in the second half of Rebuild the objective to save the world seems to take the narrative center, with everything that happened to the world with N3I being the fuel of Shinji's plight and fixing it his resolve to act, both thing being itself the fuel to the whole plot of 3.0. And if the trailer for FINAL is to be believed, that narrative trend will continue. Because learning your lesson is all well and good, but you have to apply it in the real world for it be meaningful, and I get the hunch that Shinji learning that new lesson (or not) will be central to what will happen to the world in FINAL.

[zlink64]

In NGE the lesson was to learn to love himself and to not reject others by fear of being hurt.

Well actually based off how 3.0 ended this might be exactly what Shinji needs to start learning. We won't know till 4.0 though.

Firstly because Shinji did learned that lesson: in 2.0 he's much more open to his friends than he ever was in NGE (look at the scenes where he hangs out with Touji and Kensuke in 2.0, or how he makes lunches for Rei) and he found his self-worth by choosing his reason to fight and pilot: not for the "others" because he was asked, certainly not for his father, but for the people he has come to care about (and thus in a sense for himself, since it's his reason to fight), which was shown when he tried to save Rei at the end of 2.0 of course, but also in 3.0 when he volunteered to pilot EVA-01 specifically to go help Asuka.

This character development you are seeing in 2.0 (the parts I Highlighted) is present in the TV show. Not gonna go into a bunch of examples but I'll give 2 that I think are pretty immediate.
Ex 1)There is scene, I forget what episode so I'll paraphrase, where Shinji just randomly cleans Rei room and Toji tells him straight up "Wow Shinji you used to act like a dushbag but you are actually pretty cool, like you actually care enough about people to just clean their rooms for them." This act is him "opening up" and caring about others. In that scene we are being told that Shinji has change since episode one in the same exact way you mention in 2.0.

Ex 2) The the part where you see him "choose" to fight on his own to save the people he cares about also happens in the show when Zerual, the angel Eva 1 eats, comes to tokyo. We know he choose to fight it because of his conversation with Kaji.

Kaji: "Shinji, the only thing I can do is stand here and water. But you, you have something that you can do. That only you can do. Nobody is forcing you. Think for yourself, and make the decision by yourself. Think about what you ought to do now. You know, so you don't have any regrets."

Now Kaji is giving Shinji Advice and not telling him what to do. We know this for sure because Misato exist and we can compare her with Kaji. In the show the only 2 adults that ever give Shinji advice are Misato and Kaji but the major difference between them is that Kaji always gives Shinji advice and looks out for him but never ask for anything in return. While with Misato her advice ends up working out like this (from Shinji's POV).

Shinji: "Hey Misato you got any advice for me?"(advise=caring)
Misato: "Yeah lil buddy but you gotta pilot the Eva if you want it."
Shinji: "That's not cool Misato."
Misato: "STFU! And get in the damn Eva!! I'll hug you later if you do."

This doesn't change for Misato's and Shinji relationship until the end/elevator kiss scene where Misato purposefully copies Kaji and tries to fill in the role he had for Shinji. Misato tries to stop Shinji's self-destructive rant the same way Kaji tried to stop Misato's self-destructive rant on the night she was drunk. And we know her act is unconditional because she says she'll be waiting for him. Meaning she isn't waiting for him because of Eva's anymore since it's the end; it's genuine. The only time Misato doesn't give Shinji orders is when she acts like Kaji. The reason I'm stressing this comparison is to help make it clear that on day Zerual attacked in NGE it was definitely Shinji's choice even though he had direct guidance from Kaji. Kaji didn't order Shinji around.

You say these moments of character growth for Shinji are more apparent in the movies than the show and I think you are right but IMO that has less to do with Shinji's character arc being different(I'm pretty sure it's the same) and more to do with the fact that you are watching a movie.

If we are gonna compare Shinji in NTE and NGE then a important difference between them that we need to take into account is that NGE is a 26-*28 episode long TV show while NTE is 4 separate movies. This changes things because in a TV show Anno can afford to be more subtle because he has 26 episodes to build up to one giant Climax so he can hold back with his characters. He doesn't owe the audience more than 1 big ending so he only needs to give extra special focus on Shinji's final moments of character growth so it can match up with the climax while the smaller moments of character growth get less special treatment. With the movies however Anno has to do 4 different Climaxes and as a result must be much less subtle with his characters because he owes it to the audience to match the level of intensity in the character arc with each climax since each NTE is it's own independent feature with it's own climax.

So imagine A plot chart of the NGE. It would be one giant 26 episode line graph. Then add Shiniji's character arc. So you would have another line moving along side the plot line. The ups and down of both lines would match each other. This would just be one long plot hill slowly but surly gets more and more dramatic as you get to the end. If you looked at it you would notice Shinji's changes/grow in less and less subtle ways as we get closer to the end.

When Anno adapts/"retells" Shinji's story in 4 movies he is no longer just using one giant plot line that is getting progressively higher/intense. Instead he is using 4 separate plots that each have there own big build up/Climaxes. So when Anno adapts Shinji's character Arc to these 4 new separate plots he needs to change it and divide up in a way so that each bump in Shinji's arc matches the new Ups and downs/level of intensity/drama in the plot/Climaxes. What ends up happening is Anno puts much more focus and Highlights every single bump in Shinji's character arc unlike in NGE. So what I'm saying is that Shinji hasn't changed at all, Anno is just presenting Shiniji's "lessons" in a more obvious way to accommodate the movie format so it just seems superficially more important than before but really it is all the same as far as NGExNTE Shinji is concerned.

[Sachi]

Well actually based off how 3.0 ended this might be exactly what Shinji needs to start learning. We won't know till 4.0 though.

3.0 was more about being able to forgive oneself and move forward from one's mistakes rather than learning to simply love oneself.

Ex 2) The the part where you see him "choose" to fight on his own to save the people he cares about also happens in the show when Zerual, the angel Eva 1 eats, comes to tokyo. We know he choose to fight it because of his conversation with Kaji.

Kaji pretty much tells him the same thing that everybody else did; that only Shinji could pilot Unit-01 and defend everyone from the Angels. Only, what Kaji says is worse, because he also reveals the threat of Third Impact if an Angel reaches Lilith. In reality, Shinji had less of a choice in the matter.

In Rebuild, Shinji is aware of Third Impact as early as the Ramiel attack, and knowing that he eventually still left Nerv after the incident with Bardiel. What brought him back in 2.0 wasn't the coercion of the world ending, but rather his desire to protect those he cared about, which was finally a choice of his own.

[Bagheera]

I wouldn't say the lessons that need to be learned in light of EoE and Q are the same at all, nor that Shinji's arcs or character development are the same. They follow similar trajectories, but are actually mirror images of one another. In EoE Shinji is a victim of pathos; everything that happens to him there is completely outside of his control, and even the single choice he does get to make is implemented by someone else. At the end of the day he has to learn to accept others and to get on with the business of living life even if doing so is painful. That is, he has to grapple with and overcome the hedgehog's dilemma.

In Q things are completely different. Shinji is a tragic character here, in that everything that happens to him occurs by his own hand. He is responsible for events in a way EoE!Shinji never was, and that means the lessons he needs to learn are different. He's accepted his responsibility, and he's accepted others and himself, but what he needs to learn now is empathy. He needs to learn to recognize other peoples' desires and the impact (heh) his actions have on others and grapple with that. This is a much more sophisticated lesson to learn: we've gone from "I mustn't run away" to "how do I move forward without fucking up again?"

So, even calling it a remake at this point is misleading, as it's really not. The messages and tone involved are completely different. After all, how can birth and matriculation be called the same thing in any but the broadest possible sense?

[zlink64]

3.0 was more about being able to forgive oneself and move forward from one's mistakes rather than learning to simply love oneself.

I semi-agree with this. I wasn't clear before because I didn't have to be. Shinji does need to forgive himself but I think the idea of forgiving oneself and loving one self are interlocked. They work in conjunction with each other and not apart, since, the problem of being incapable of forgiving ones self only becomes a problem when one hates themselves. When you hate yourself it's because there is something about yourself that you believe is wrong/bad. When you believe that, it validates the un-forgiveness of yourself. You need to get over the hating of yourself in some way, shape, or form before you can forgive yourself. So yeah we kinda agree sorta lol.

Kaji pretty much tells him the same thing that everybody else did; that only Shinji could pilot Unit-01 and defend everyone from the Angels. Only, what Kaji says is worse, because he also reveals the threat of Third Impact if an Angel reaches Lilith. In reality, Shinji had less of a choice in the matter.

In Rebuild, Shinji is aware of Third Impact as early as the Ramiel attack, and knowing that he eventually still left Nerv after the incident with Bardiel. What brought him back in 2.0 wasn't the coercion of the world ending, but rather his desire to protect those he cared about, which was finally a choice of his own.

Have you ever heard of the term "bad faith"? If not, it's a term made famous by Jean-Paul Sartre. It's exactly what you are talking about and I guess me too now lol. Here is a 3 min vid/cartoon on the concept: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHrbeBTiO5w You don't need to watch it but you might find interesting since it relates directly to Shinji IMO and the chances of Anno having read Sartre is extremely high (99.9% chance) and it might make what I say below make more sense. At any rate I'm only mentioning it cause it's worth while.

Anyway back to the topic:
I feel like Kaji's Dialogue on it's own is self-evident but I understand that some people might disagree so I added more; what I mention about Shinji and Kaji relationship and how it compares to Misato. What I said feels pretty solid to me but obviously you didn't buy it so I'll try explaining this again/differently and respond to you.

1) The parts I high lighted: The only reason the world ending matters is because there are people Shinji cares about living in it anyway. So really there is no difference there. And what Mari does in NTE is practically the same thing that Kaji does in NGE so if what Kaji did counts as coercion then so does what Mari did to Shinji meaning you might be contradicting yourself if you are saying he doesn't choose in NGE to return on his own but does in NTE. I mean at least in NGE Shinji didn't have to be physically/forcibly/not of his choice removed from the shelter by a giant Eva hand and force him to look at the damage. Note: To be fair we can interpret both these scenes either way but given the details we must say they are the same. So if I'm wrong it just means that I'm wrong about whether or not it's a choice but right about saying it's the same. Basically either he choose in both or he really didn't choose in both. Still the same though. Not saying I agree only that regardless my main point stands unless you think Mari was different than Kaji in the scenes.

1.2) Also on top of that Shinji was already conflicted about making the choice of going or not on his own in NGE before Kaji even appears. We know this because while everyone was evacuating/running around he was just standing and staring at Asuka's half-dead Eva. Kaji just gave Shinji advice on a choice that Shinji himself was already contemplating. Given how perceptive Kaji is about Shinji in general it is not a stretch to say that Kaji already knew exactly what Shinji was thinking before he even started talking. Anyway my point is even if Kaji hadn't been there we know for a fact that at the very least Shinji was contemplating returning to pilot eva of his own volition because of the way he staring at the battle between Asuka/Rei vs Azurel and his on inner thoughts while in the shelter and during the battle.

2) The title of the Episode in NGE that we are talking about is "Introjection". The introjection of the episode is mostly likely(like 100%) when Shinji says " I'm here because I'm the pilot of Evangelion unit 1!" In the world of NGE the idea of identity and choice are connect; Like "you are defined by your actions". So when Shinji says I'm the pilot of Eva 1 he is also referring to his own choice to be the pilot. The theme of "choice" is heavy in this episode; it's the purpose of the title. If you watch the video I linked then what I'm saying now and in my next point will be much clearer.

3) You are right that there is this air of "Shinji has no choice" when he makes a choice. What you are picking up is not a coincidence. Like there is in fact a social, ethical, political, etc reason why he has to do stuff. Shinji is also aware of this as well but there is a part of Shinji that knows that it really it is his choice despite that; that's part of why it makes him so depressed. Earlier in the thread I compared the Masturbation scene with Kaworu's death in NTE. I mentioned that they where different but I didn't mention how they are the same. In hindsight given the point I was trying to make I should've so I'll do it now since it's relevant to whether or not the story is the same/remake and it directly has to do with "choice". Mind you I'm not saying it is 100% a remake of Shinji's story only that as of 3.0 it seems that way.

So in NGE Shinji makes a lot of major choices. And there is always this implication that he must do it because "he should" so it ends up not really being his choice. For example even though the episode we are talking about is titled Introjection and Kaji blatantly says "it's up to you Shinji" you can still say "but yeah he kinda has to, you know, other wise humanity will end so really it's no choice at all". Shinji is aware of this and it stresses the shit out him everyday, regardless of whether or not his choice is good or bad. Note: I'm not contradicting myself because on meta-level(outside the text) I know that Shinji is good a guy, I'm talking specifically about how Shinji views his actions. So Shinji's choices can make him depressed but there is part of him that can always hide behind the idea: "I really never had a choice to begin with". The only time in the show when this is not true is when he chooses to masturbate to Asuka. In this moment there was no reason for him to that. It was purely selfish. It was his choice 100%. At this moment for the first time in the entire show Shinji can without a doubt, based off his own choice, think "Wow I'm a bad person"; he has no excuse to hide behind. This is why it specifically leads to his complete shut down. This is why simple masturbation of his friend shuts him down completely while the murder of his friend only made him depressed. When he murders Kaworu in NGE he can hide behind the fact that Kaworu was an angel and downplay his choice therefore spare his ego. With the masturbation scene the same is not true. When Shinji looks at his hand in EoE he is having a very profound but negative moment.

This is also the major difference between Kaworu death in NGE and NTE and why they both effect him slightly differently. In NGE Kaworu death was not really Shinji's choice(note: the show/Anno is saying it is his choice but Shinji/ the viewer will pretend/rationalize that it isn't) because Kaworu is an Angel and that is no choice at all since Angels must be killed. In NTE the fact that it is Shinji's personal choice that leads to Kaworu's death is emphasized. Literally everyone on every side is telling Shinji to stop but he doesn't listen because he choose to be selfish on his own and ironically Kaworu get killed by collar meant for Shinji. So again like the masturbation scene we are getting a moment where Shinji is 100% responsible and he is aware of this too so he is going to acknowledge like in EOE "Wow, I'm a bad person" since has no excuse to hide behind. Shinji admitting that he is a bad person is what cause him to reach the peak of depression/shut down. And he feels validated to feel that way because of his act of pure choice. So from a character development point view/Shinji's story POV:

Kaworu NGE death does not equal Kaworu NTE death

BUT

Kaworu NTE death = EOE/NGE masturbation scene.

for Shinji.

[Sachi]

And what Mari does in NTE is practically the same thing that Kaji does in NGE so if what Kaji did counts as coercion then so does what Mari did to Shinji meaning you might be contradicting yourself if you are saying he doesn't choose in NGE to return on his own but does in NTE.

Mari encouraged Shinji to get the hell out of there; there's no contradiction. She asks what he's doing in the shelter, he replies that he decided he wasn't going to pilot anymore, and then she tells him to escape, helping him out by pulling him from the ruined shelter. That's when he witnesses Zeruel engulf Unit-00, and that's when he decides on his own to save Rei.

Everything else, I'll leave to your interpretation, but this particular scene with Mari is very different than the corresponding scene with Kaji from the original. In NGE, Kaji pretty much says that the choice is Shinji's, but the world's going to end if he doesn't do anything; in NTE, Mari just asks what he's doing and tries to help him do it.

[zlink64]

If Mari didn't appear Shinji would have done nothing. And Kaji was just being encouraging too. I guess I'm just gonna agree to disagree.

[Sachi]

If Mari didn't appear Shinji would have done nothing. And Kaji was just being encouraging too. I guess I'm just gonna agree to disagree.

The ends are the same, yes, but that doesn't mean that these scenes are the same. The primary difference is that there simply isn't any coercion on Mari's part. In NTE Shinji is allowed to come to a decision on his own and move forward (and later pay the consequences for it); in NGE, Shinji is sent back to square one after being reminded of his responsibility as the only person capable of piloting. In NTE, he finally chooses to pilot for his own convictions, while in NGE he continued piloting because of he feels obligated to rather than actually wanting to do it.

[zlink64]

Okay I understand what you are saying, I get that the scenes aren't exactly the same, but their purpose is exactly the same for Shinji's character arch. All Kaji did was be honest with Shinji. He didn't put gun to his head. All he said was look this is what is going to happen, do what you want. That's it.

As soon Mari as see's Shinji she criticizes him and asks what he is doing. Then she grabs him and all he says " No I don't wanna pilot" and she like I don't get it and she shows him the outside destruction and he chooses to pilot because of what he sees. In both cases he is piloting because he is being given information. In NGE Kaji tells him the truth and in NTE Mari forces him to go outside and then when he sees things with his own eye(information) he decides on his own to pilot.

It seems like you think Kaji is kind of manipulating Shinji. Nothing about his Dialogue in that scene is making me think that. I mean you are kind just adding that assumption without any real basis. Like do you think Kaji is lying when he say "Shinji do what you want"? If so why? I mean he says it himself he has accepted that he might die in that very scene so what is his motive. If you think he is lying about that too fine but why? Are you seeing something I don't?.

Like sure most likely Kaji wants Shinji to pilot Eva but based off Mari's criticism so does she. Despite both wanting the same thing neither one of them force Shinji to pilot. They just both become the soure/cause of the information that leads Shinji's to choose on his own.

Shinji even runs past some Water melons in NTE after Mari's pulls him out. If that's not clue/invitation to think of Kaji during that scene then I don't know what is.

This is why we gotta agree to disagree. I don't get your view of Kaji. Your going to have to explain it better if you are going to convince me that Kaji is being coercive and that these scenes are not equivalet.

[Sachi]

I don't see Kaji as manipulative. I'm just saying that the choice Shinji was presented with in NGE wasn't really for himself, whereas in NTE it was (and this all roots back to the initial argument that Shinji's character arcs are different between the continuities). Before running away in NGE, Shinji wasn't aware that the Angels could instantly annihilate humanity if they reach Terminal Dogma, and once Kaji clues him in on that information, Shinji feels obligated to stick around and fight.

In NTE, he was perfectly aware of what would happen if the Angels reach Lilith, and he still chooses to quit and run away! At this point, Shinji has had enough of Nerv, Eva, and especially his father, and he leaves. The world at stake no longer mattered to him.

Later, when Shinji tells Mari that he's decided not to pilot anymore, she's accepting of it. She doesn't even really question it; she sort of shrugs, and then tries to help him escape. She doesn't actively show him the destruction; she just pulls him out of the ruined shelter and tells him to get out of there. At that point, Shinji witnesses (as opposed to being shown) what happens to Rei, and then chooses to go to protect her. It was because he cared about Rei that motivated him to return and fight, not the world at stake; he even flat out says so during the climax.

The important difference is that Shinji has found a reason to pilot Eva, something he'd been struggling with before that point in NTE. In NGE, he was still questioning why he continued to pilot the Eva all the way till EoTV/EoE, but in NTE he's developed past a lot of those struggles already (but not all), and has moved on to new ones. As Bagheera pointed out, NGE!Shinji was a passive character that got pulled along with the events, whereas NTE!Shinji has taken a much more active stance and his decisions have influenced the direction of the plot.

[zlink64]

(and this all roots back to the initial argument that Shinji's character arcs are different between the continuities).

No, we are at the root right now, at this very moment we are all up in the base of this tree lol. You pull on one thread on my whole Character Arch argument then the whole thing unfolds. I don't get to be right on just some parts. I gotta be right the whole way through form 1.0-3.0 if I'm gonna say that Shinji's character arch is exactly same up to 3.0. The only place I get a little wiggle room is in like the last 30 secs of 3.0 just because we don't have 4.0 yet. I mean we gotta reconcile this very scene/issue lol.

1) If you don't see Kaji as manipulative then you shouldn't have used the word coercion then. Coercion is a type of manipulation. And frankly you need prove that Shinji didn't make a choice in NGE at this moment with Kaji. Everything in that conversation between Shinji and him, plus all the subtext from Shinji, plus the title of the episode make it's clear that Shinji is choosing to be the pilot of Eva 01 of his own accord. You need to directly prove this is wrong right now. You can't just skim over it. I'll respond to rest of your comment but this is the meat of it, the rest is extra.

2) Yes he is motivate by Rei in NTE but he also motivated by Rei and in general just caring for others in NGE. Go rewatch the episode. It's very clear that Shinji is worried about them. And yes in NGE he wasn't aware that the Angels could destroy the world but he was aware that they could still destroy Tokyo(The place where everyone he cares about lives) and still leaves. What's the difference between the world and Tokyo city to Shinji? As far he cares its the same shit. Running in both cases is practically the same thing. One is not morally worse than the other unless you think Shinji is a hardcore utilitarian? And basically decides "Meh, it just a city who cares I can live with that?" but when it comes to the world he is like "Oh crap that's way worse than just a city!". And frankly that question I think has nothing to do with the show. But it's what you are suggesting. Are you making a case that Shinji would do this? If so prove it within the context of each version so then we can properly compare them both.

3) My bad, you are right, "witness" is a better word. But it doesn't change my point. The scenes are still about Shinji getting information and then making a choice on his own based off said information. The scenes are still equal in relation to Shinji's character arch. Both moments from NGE/NTE are about Shinji choosing on his own.

4) Yeah Mari shrugs it off but like I said Kaji isn't exactly putting a gun to Shinji's head. Considering that the world is at stake his response is very "Shrugs off" like. Their entire conversation start with Kaji being super super casual. He even makes jokes about breast and watermelons. Considering that theres an angel heading down to nerv Kaji is being pretty non chalant.

5) Also you are forgetting that while he is abandoning the city/world in NTE he is also leaving it behind to Asuka and Rei. In other words it easy for him to ignore his obligation because there are other pilots. So when leaves the city in NTE he is not condemning the world to death like you seem to imply he is just piling on his responsibilities on to the girls just like he does in NGE.

5)Yes you are right after this moment in NGE Shinji still struggles with his choices after the fact of already having chosen with Kaji's guidance. But the same is true in NTE. I mean correct me if I'm wrong cause I could be remembering this wrong but I'm pretty sure Shinji kind of just let's Kaworu choose for him and then when Shinji later chooses to ignore Kaworu he obviously super regrets it because Kaworu dies. I huge part about Eva 3.0 is about Shijni just choosing on whether or not he should still pilot in light of the time skip. All of this sounds like struggle to still make eva piloting decisions to me. I mean He ends up shutting down in both version because of his decision making. You and me are going to be have make a more clear cut distinctions here but before we do that address 1 please.

[Sachi]

1) If you don't see Kaji as manipulative then you shouldn't have used the word coercion then. Coercion is a type of manipulation. And frankly you need prove that Shinji didn't make a choice in NGE at this moment with Kaji. Everything in that conversation between Shinji and him, plus all the subtext from Shinji, plus the title of the episode make it's clear that Shinji is choosing to be the pilot of Eva 01 of his own accord. You need to directly prove this is wrong right now. You can't just skim over it. I'll respond to rest of your comment but this is the meat of it, the rest is extra.

This whole thing seems to be mountains out of anthills, and I'm pretty sure I summed up my opinion entirely within my initial post. We don't even entirely disagree, other than that Shinji's character arcs are different, yet similar.

My usage of the word coercion applies more to the situation of Shinji not having any real options in the matter, being given a choice with only one right answer. Kaji has little to do with it, other than letting him know about Third Impact and telling Shinji that only he can do something about it. He doesn't pressure Shinji one way or the other, but in the end, Shinji's decision is made in light of that information. Yes, it's a choice in the purest sense of the word, but for Shinji's character arc, it hardly gets him any closer to his destination.

In NTE, once Shinji makes his decision to save Rei at any cost, that's when the lessons change. The question he'd been asking himself, why he pilots Eva, was finally answered: to protect those we cares about at any cost, regardless of the repercussions. At that point, he needs to face the consequences of said repercussions and learn how to live with failure. In the original, Shinji makes a brief decision, and reverts back to his ways afterward; he doesn't really progress that much at all.

So when leaves the city in NTE he is not condemning it to death like you seem to imply he is just piling on his responsibilities on to the girls just like he does in NGE.

When he leaves in NTE, there's actually only Rei on the active roster. Asuka was put out of commission because of Bardiel, and Mari hadn't arrived yet. So, in a lot of ways, his quitting is worse, especially since he knows about Third Impact.

[Bagheera]

Also, he didn't know if Asuka was alive or dead, since he never bothered to check.

[zlink64]

This whole thing seems to be mountains out of anthills, and I'm pretty sure I summed up my opinion entirely within my initial post. We don't even entirely disagree, other than that Shinji's character arcs are different, yet similar. :

Part of your original post

Kaji pretty much tells him the same thing that everybody else did; that only Shinji could pilot Unit-01 and defend everyone from the Angels. Only, what Kaji says is worse, because he also reveals the threat of Third Impact if an Angel reaches Lilith. In reality, Shinji had less of a choice in the matter.

In Rebuild, Shinji is aware of Third Impact as early as the Ramiel attack, and knowing that he eventually still left Nerv after the incident with Bardiel. What brought him back in 2.0 wasn't the coercion of the world ending, but rather his desire to protect those he cared about, which was finally a choice of his own.

We were/are not in agreement at all. Your original post directly and specifically is saying I'm wrong unless you have forgotten your intial thoughts and have now completely changed your mind. That's nice that you think I'm making mountains out of ant hills...still waiting for that be proven though. The weird thing is I already said lets agree to disagree but you kept going and now you are telling I'm wrong without any plausible reason. Like do you know how it looks to repeatidly say someone is wrong and then not back it up properly? Like what do you want lol? You are at this very moment saying we should ignore Kaji dialogue directly without any plausible reason. I've given proof that is simple and self evident that episode 19 of NGE is about Shinji choosing to pilot Eva on his own and for the sake of others. I'm assuming since you have yet give a proper response that you are deciding to not care. Seems illogical to me but w/e. Not trying to be insulting just letting you know what it looks like. So for the sake of this since all of sudden "we are agreeing" on this on some level according to you and since I get the sense you yourself want to avoid the Kaji thing now I'll just let it go.

That other stuff with Rei and Asuka being in the city is fine. Like I said it was extra. I meant that in the sense that doesn't really make or break anything. It all comes down to you proving Shinji has different ethical value in relation to leaving the city versus the world. Which you haven't done and I doubt anyone would try anyway since there's nothing really there. But w/e. FYI: Saying that the world being at stake matters more to Shinji than a city being at stake for no real reason other than like "just because" is just talking in the end.

In NTE, once Shinji makes his decision to save Rei at any cost, that's when the lessons change. The question he'd been asking himself, why he pilots Eva, was finally answered: to protect those we cares about at any cost, regardless of the repercussions. At that point, he needs to face the consequences of said repercussions and learn how to live with failure. In the original, Shinji makes a brief decision, and reverts back to his ways afterward; he doesn't really progress that much at all.

I haven't rewatched the movie in months but just for you I will later this week but not tonight I'm officially tired. We'll continue this later. I'm guessing you wanna compare the lessons directly now instead the scenes So I'll keep that in mind for next time; let me know if that's not the case. Also this is how I feel right now
Sacchi: "Some points you have are wrong but I ain't giving a reason that directly says those points are wrong, I'm just saying you are wrong So lets move on to the point of the point(Shinji's character growth/lesson) and compare." .
Zlink64 :