Rebuild as a criticism of fanfiction

[Seoul Gamer]

Does anyone else get the impression that Rebuild is a condemnation of fans who reinterpret Evangelion, or speculate on how things could have gone differently?

I found a blog post that seemed to argue this very point here:
http://wrongeverytime.com/2014/02/10/once-more-with-fury-rebuilding-evangelion/

Here are some quotes that summarise what I'm getting at:

If Evangelion 2.22 is Eva yanking the “give the people what they want” lever up to 11, 3.33 is Eva straining that lever until it snaps, tumbles through the air, and falls back to earth somewhere behind the couch or something. You want Shinji to get in the fucking robot? Well, so does he, too bad doing that fucks everything up. Because it was never about him being a sissy you goddamn idiot, it was about his troubles not being ones that could be solved through an external source of pride like piloting the Eva Unit. You’re the ones who wanted the robot – you’re the ones seeking a fantasy where the weak boy can triumph, because you’re the ones grappling with the issues Shinji actually has difficulty overcoming.

In other words, the message is that it's wrong to even consider the idea of "fix fic", the notion that the characters could ever have overcome their problems or that even so much as a bittersweet ending was possible, never mind a happy one.

And so Evangelion 3.33 has earned itself some controversy. Which is almost certainly the point – Anno wouldn’t have baited the hook with 2.22 if he weren’t trying to tell people things they didn’t want to hear. But of course, in the context of the original, 3.33 is a clear progression – polished and sharpened, it’s Evangelion with the bones exposed, Evangelion with no room for misinterpretation. And personally, I think it’s fantastic – beautiful, focused, angry, and absurd, it’s one of the most passionate statements of purpose I’ve seen. It isn’t just a reflection of the original – it’s a reflection of the original as transmuted by the crucible of fan reaction, fan expectation, fan mythologizing. Given all the tools the original Evangelion provided, the fandom chose to stay in their sandbox, and Anno disapproves. “You’re not just an idiot,” Asuka spits at Shinji, realizing his failings go beyond just ignorance, “You’re a brat.” Anno has revised his estimation of the fandom, and this angry shaking of their shoulders is the result.

This really does feel right on the money for me. The third Rebuild film in particular just doesn't make sense for me unless I look at it in this light - that engaging with the narrative of Evangelion at all is wrong. We shouldn't try and imagine the themes and narrative of the series in any other way other than they way that they are presented to us.

Take this fanfiction set after the third Rebuild film, for example:
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9382989/1/Reticence

Not to spoil the story or anything, but essentially it brings a happy ending to the Rebuild films and has the characters grow, develop and learn from their mistakes. And yet, this seems like the very reaction Rebuild was meant to condemn, this idea that there could be a happy ending, or that we should even look for one.

Indeed, taking the message of the series to heart would render the Evageeks wiki and forums completely pointless. That we analyze the show and its themes at all means the show has failed to achieve its goals, namely that we should not engage with fictional worlds and characters at all. Only the world of the here and now has any value.

Is there any worth in Eva's narrative and characters at all, or in our opinions and (re)interpretations of them? Why do we continue to imagine them and engage with them when it flies in the face of the message of these films - that it's wrong to want to have vicarious experiences through fiction?

[Mr. Tines]

Unfortunately for this thesis, a pastiche or parody of bad fanfiction is still just bad fanfiction. To the extent that within days of Ha's release we were getting comments like this:

I really think it shouldn't be regarded as anything but "Rebuild of Evangelion - a fanmovie by Anno Hideaki! *Disclaimer: I don't own Eva... oh wait, I do!*"

[pwhodges]

In other words, the message is that it's wrong to even consider the idea of "fix fic", the notion that the characters could ever have overcome their problems or that even so much as a bittersweet ending was possible, never mind a happy one.

But that message directly contradicts what the article itself says about the series:

Shinji ultimately grows up, and through his triumph you can see the underlying optimism Anno feels towards his nation of grown up boys.

However, Rebuild is incomplete, and so has not yet presented that part of the argument (in whatever updated form Anno will choose). This is why the author of Reticence, and I myself in Afterwards, have written fics to follow Q - not as fix-fics, but merely to stand as temporary completions in what each of us feels is the spirit of the films so far.

[Seoul Gamer]

But that message directly contradicts what the article itself says about the series:

Shinji ultimately grows up, and through his triumph you can see the underlying optimism Anno feels towards his nation of grown up boys.

Followed immediately by this line:

The years have not been kind to Anno’s optimism.

I see your point, though. What I meant was that I felt the article summed up how the Rebuild series's message felt to me.

However, Rebuild is incomplete, and so has not yet presented that part of the argument (in whatever updated form Anno will choose). This is why the author of Reticence, and I myself in Afterwards, have written fics to follow Q - not as fix-fics, but merely to stand as temporary completions in what each of us feels is the spirit of the films so far.

As for the distinction between fix-fic and "temporary completions", what I was wondering was whether engaging with the narrative at all, as opposed to focusing purely on the theme of the series, was worthwhile. In the latter case, one wouldn't even go to the trouble of writing about the show or discussing it. To do so goes against Anno's entire point, doesn't it?

[pwhodges]

what I was wondering was whether engaging with the narrative at all, as opposed to focusing purely on the theme of the series, was worthwhile.

It's a story, above all. No amount of underlying meaning, or even obvious themes, has any point until people watch/read it. So there is no reason not to start with the narrative; then having that in place, the writer can work on it in such a way as to engage you with his understanding of Anno's theme to whatever extent they wish or are capable, and you can judge them on that separately if you want.

In the case of my fanfic, I ignore the specific otaku criticism aspect because I don't much engage with it at all (not, I hope, being that much of an otaku myself); Shinji's state and its cause within the story are interesting enough in their own right, to my mind, and have sufficient general parallels in real life.

[Lennik]

I can't help but feel like there's something supremely arrogant of this fanbase to equate a new continuity written by the original author himself with fanfiction. The original Eva is the original Eva, this is NTE. One isn't necessarily inferior to the other just because it's a different continuity. Even many of the themes between the two are the same, however, so I really don't think Anno is going for a condemnation of something as trivial as fanfiction.

[Guy Nacks]

I can't help but feel like there's something supremely arrogant of this fanbase to equate a new continuity written by the original author himself with fanfiction.

This.

Even though I fine NGE far and away the better of the two, I've said many times that the whole "Rebuild is Anno's fanfic" opinion to make no goddamn sense at all and it's really insulting to Anno.

[Sachi]

2.22 was definitely bait for the audience before the fallout that was Q, in the same way that the action arc of the original series was bait before the descent arc. Rebuild is not so much a criticism of fanfiction as it is simply re-emphasizing and repackaging themes from the original, including the criticism of the audience and otaku culture.

[Bagheera]

Does anyone else get the impression that Rebuild is a condemnation of fans who reinterpret Evangelion, or speculate on how things could have gone differently?

Not so much, since that [the bit you quoted] has always been a part of Eva. It was the entire point of Asuka's arc in NGE for example, and culminated brilliantly in EoE. And of course, we see this with her arc in the ENT series as well -- she rejects social interaction, retreating to the Eva, only to get Bardieled. In Q, she's accepted that she needs the bonds of others, and is presented as a stable character (albeit one with unresolved issues with the MC). It's reasonable to expect Shinji will do the same thing, after the necessary battles and atonement, perhaps with Instrumentality or some other mindfuckery in the background.

In other words, the message is that it's wrong to even consider the idea of "fix fic", the notion that the characters could ever have overcome their problems or that even so much as a bittersweet ending was possible, never mind a happy one.

Nah. Fix fic isn't really the point, so much as subverting conventional rules of storytelling. Getting in the robot won't solve Shinji's problems: he has to manage that on his own, by dealing with the people who upset him so. He can obviously do that, but it will take some work.

This really does feel right on the money for me. The third Rebuild film in particular just doesn't make sense for me unless I look at it in this light - that engaging with the narrative of Evangelion at all is wrong. We shouldn't try and imagine the themes and narrative of the series in any other way other than they way that they are presented to us.

That's true for any story, though. It should be viewed on its own terms first and foremost. There are naturally other ways to interpret/analyze/view it, and I think Eva (and Anno) are fine with that. But judge it for what it is, not for your expectations as to what it maybe ought to be.

Indeed, taking the message of the series to heart would render the Evageeks wiki and forums completely pointless. That we analyze the show and its themes at all means the show has failed to achieve its goals, namely that we should not engage with fictional worlds and characters at all. Only the world of the here and now has any value.

That doesn't match up with Anno's stated goals for the original show, at the very least -- he wants us to think about it, and to interpret it as we see fit. I think looking at it in the light of fanfic shows a touch of hubris, honestly. Anno's engaging with the audience, but our thinking we can "fix" his work, or that he actually cares about such notions, is kinda silly IMO.

Is there any worth in Eva's narrative and characters at all, or in our opinions and (re)interpretations of them? Why do we continue to imagine them and engage with them when it flies in the face of the message of these films - that it's wrong to want to have vicarious experiences through fiction?

Because that's not the message of these films.

[Gendo'sPapa]

Of course the films are partially a response to the fanbase. A 12-year-old series (at the time) isn't reconstructed in a new form by the original filmmaker without taking the fanbase into consideration.
But I do not consider the film's as an attack on fan fiction.
I do feel each of the three film's released so far have been a direct & opinionated statement from Anno about what Eva can/is/or even should be. The film's are a discussion that he's having with the Evangelion fanbase in general.

1.0 intentionally does not stray from the original source material - this is true in a broad sense so no one post a defense that changes in deep minutiae details equates drastic revisions - & gives the fans the old show with a new prettier facelift & a nicer action set piece at the end.

2.0 intentionally plays up to modern sexist otaku preferences with all the female characters suddenly being really into Shinji & expressing their feelings in shallow but cute fashions such as cooking for him. It starts to become the story people want to see. Step away from the blowhard attitude on EvaGeeks (which I myself absolutely contribute the blowhardness too) & 2.0 is THE BEST EVA MOVIE EVER because it's Eva the way it was meant to be. It's fun, the colors are pretty, the action scenes are loud & kinetic, Kaji is cool, & the girls are totally into Shinji. It's the happy-go-lucky version of Evangelion that the fans fantasize about - there ain't a lot of merchandise of Asuka & Rei suffering in pain nor does Sadamoto draw a lot of calendars with the cast depressed. It's all smiles & swimsuits. Even when the film does get dark it still ends with Shinji being "all manly & shit".

3.0 intentionally goes out of it's way to refute everything the second film gave the audience. It doubles down on everything the show is about which is "the pain & problems that are created when people don't properly communicate with each other". Yes, all the problems in 3.0 could be solved with a conversation & yes, Shinji is so narrowly focused on his goal in the third act that he refuses to listen to anyone else & in turn creates problems. That's the point. 3.0 is the most direct statement Anno has made about what Eva is to HIM yet.

So yes, the Rebuilds are Anno engaging in a conversation with the fanbase about what Evangelion is & could be. It's not surprising to find there's essays online about "Why 3.0 is utter garbage" or "Why 2.0 is the best thing Evangelion ever" or "3.0 is Anno's greatest film since EOE" because each in a way is a response to what the film team is going after. In the end that's kind've what I'm loving the most about the Rebuilds. Each film is it's own great stand alone film with a style & attitude all it's own but each is a distillation of a different aspect of what NGE is.

As for my personal view on fan fiction - not into it. I understand it's a HUGE thing with a small subset of people & if you're into that kinda thing that's cool but I mostly find it's a waste of time. If you're gonna write a story make your own characters & don't just force other people's creations into your own narrative. But that's me. If you can find the Adventure Time episode "All the Little People" that perfectly sums up all my issues with fan fiction.

[Mr. Tines]

If you're gonna write a story make your own characters & don't just force other people's creations into your own narrative.

Well, that's Sir Thomas Malory, Alfred Lord Tennyson, T.H. White, Richard Wagner, Wolfram von Eschenbach and old Uncle Tom Cobbley and all well told.

[Gendo'sPapa]

^ I still passionately feel someone who actively doesn't watch the Rebuild films shouldn't engage in these conversations but whatever man. You keep throwing in your snarky & arrogant one line comments in discussions & saying "I'm a moderator" as your defense.

[Arcadia's legacy]

Wait, how can you actively not do something?

[Bagheera]

^ I still passionately feel someone who actively doesn't watch the Rebuild films shouldn't engage in these conversations but whatever man. You keep throwing in your snarky & arrogant one line comments in discussions & saying "I'm a moderator" as your defense.

He wasn't addressing the new movies there, though, and on this point he's right -- many prominent authors make use of the creations of others, and doing so is no inherent strike against the quality of a work. You're painting with an awfully broad brush here.

[Seoul Gamer]

Not so much, since that [the bit you quoted] has always been a part of Eva. It was the entire point of Asuka's arc in NGE for example, and culminated brilliantly in EoE. And of course, we see this with her arc in the ENT series as well -- she rejects social interaction, retreating to the Eva, only to get Bardieled. In Q, she's accepted that she needs the bonds of others, and is presented as a stable character (albeit one with unresolved issues with the MC). It's reasonable to expect Shinji will do the same thing, after the necessary battles and atonement, perhaps with Instrumentality or some other mindfuckery in the background.



Nah. Fix fic isn't really the point, so much as subverting conventional rules of storytelling. Getting in the robot won't solve Shinji's problems: he has to manage that on his own, by dealing with the people who upset him so. He can obviously do that, but it will take some work.



That's true for any story, though. It should be viewed on its own terms first and foremost. There are naturally other ways to interpret/analyze/view it, and I think Eva (and Anno) are fine with that. But judge it for what it is, not for your expectations as to what it maybe ought to be.



That doesn't match up with Anno's stated goals for the original show, at the very least -- he wants us to think about it, and to interpret it as we see fit. I think looking at it in the light of fanfic shows a touch of hubris, honestly. Anno's engaging with the audience, but our thinking we can "fix" his work, or that he actually cares about such notions, is kinda silly IMO.



Because that's not the message of these films.

A better way of phrasing what I was trying to say might be a criticism of audience reactions. I almost felt like with 3.0 that the director was dismissing the notion that the characters could have overcome their problems if things had turned out differently. We see that a Shinji who gives in to his desires and makes his own decisions end up in an even worse situation than the passive Shinji from the original series. While I don't mean to suggest that Anno is so petty as to care what people churn out on Fanfiction.net, I do feel like he is killing the idea that there was any alternative to the unhappy end that awaits the cast of Evangelion. No matter what decisions they make or what differences there could have been in their personalities, failure is inevitable for all of them.

Didn't he rewatch the original series with his stuff, to see it from an audience's perspective? One feels as though he concluded that we were "viewing it wrong". What the audience wanted from Evangelion was the wrong response, and in Rebuild any notion that things could have been different is crushed in spectacular fashion.

I'll agree, though, that above all else the new films seem determined to convey the same message as the original series did, only that the digs at the audience are even more blatant this time around.

[pwhodges]

I do feel like he is killing the idea that there was any alternative to the unhappy end that awaits the cast of Evangelion. No matter what decisions they make or what differences there could have been in their personalities, failure is inevitable for all of them.

They have already failed. But failure need not be final, and the last film will probably show how in their different ways the characters can start to move on from the failures shown in Q. That it won't be easy is a given, though.

[Bagheera]

A better way of phrasing what I was trying to say might be a criticism of audience reactions. I almost felt like with 3.0 that the director was dismissing the notion that the characters could have overcome their problems if things had turned out differently. We see that a Shinji who gives in to his desires and makes his own decisions end up in an even worse situation than the passive Shinji from the original series.

But Shinji wasn't passive in the original series, not at all. He often actively chose to fight, to return to Eva, even though he knew it would hurt him. The most striking examples are the fights with Ramiel and Zeruel, but it's a common pattern throughout the story. He is passive in EoE because he is broken, and it's notable that, no matter how active he'd been, the end result would have been exactly the same since matters were long since taken out of his hands. But when he could make a meaningful decision he did at every turn, and he generally chose correctly.

What's happened in the new films is that Shinji has been given more agency, and also the ability to make the wrong decisions. In Ha he chose to fight to get Rei back, even though she was at peace with her decision and he had no reason to think he could even get her back. That was a choice, and a bad one, and there was a very clear alternative: accept Rei's sacrifice and be content with destroying the Angel. There was no need to take it further than that, and if he hadn't Unit 01 would not have awakened. Could he have known that at the time? No, but that's not the point. The point is that he did have options, and he made the wrong choice.

In Q, the line is even more brightly drawn. Did he have to go with Rei, even though he'd been told she was gone and the Eva she was piloting was similar to one he thought destroyed? No. Did he have to fight Asuka and pull the Spears? No. Did he have to ignore Kaworu, even going so far as to lock him out of the controls? No. He chose to do all of these things, not because they were the only options available to him but rather because he refused to consider alternatives. He was obsessed with recapturing the past rather than in reconnecting with the people who remained, and these are the consequences. Anno is not telling us that making our own decisions is folly; rather, he is telling us that, sometimes, we should be mindful of the needs and desires of others, and that we should try to content ourselves with what we have, even if it's difficult, rather than chase fruitless dreams that will only bring misery for ourselves and other people.

While I don't mean to suggest that Anno is so petty as to care what people churn out on Fanfiction.net, I do feel like he is killing the idea that there was any alternative to the unhappy end that awaits the cast of Evangelion. No matter what decisions they make or what differences there could have been in their personalities, failure is inevitable for all of them.

I see no basis for that notion. It is based on the presumption that the characters never had any meaningful choices to make, and as I noted above that's clearly not the case.

Didn't he rewatch the original series with his stuff, to see it from an audience's perspective? One feels as though he concluded that we were "viewing it wrong".

One feels no such thing. You might, but plenty of us clearly don't.

I'll agree, though, that above all else the new films seem determined to convey the same message as the original series did, only that the digs at the audience are even more blatant this time around.

The notion that there were digs at the audience has long been debunked for the original, and I feel it has for the new movies as well. It's a petty notion that fails to grasp any sense of depth to the story Anno is trying to tell.

[BlueBasilisk]

Well said! Shinji does have choices available to him, he just keeps making the wrong ones. That doesn't mean he can't or won't shape up in the future once he accepts that you can't undo the past. He's at his nadir now, and I think he'll start to rise out of the pit in the next movie.

They have already failed. But failure need not be final, and the last film will probably show how in their different ways the characters can start to move on from the failures shown in Q. That it won't be easy is a given, though.

Not necessarily. Kaworu's dead, Rei II is more or less gone and Shinji is in a pit of depression, but the other cast members are somewhat better off than at the same point in NGE. Asuka wasn't broken by an Angel and is as strong as ever, even without her Eva. Rei Q has rejected Gendo of her own volition. Ritsuko isn't a broken traitor. Seele is gone and Misato isn't powerless in her crusade with the Wunder and the rest of the sympathetic Nerv crew on her side.

The world is hurting from N3I and 3I (how badly we don't know) and the heroes are on the back foot at the moment, but I'd say they're doing a pretty good job averting a bad end given the circumstances they face.

[Seoul Gamer]

But Shinji wasn't passive in the original series, not at all. He often actively chose to fight, to return to Eva, even though he knew it would hurt him. The most striking examples are the fights with Ramiel and Zeruel, but it's a common pattern throughout the story. He is passive in EoE because he is broken, and it's notable that, no matter how active he'd been, the end result would have been exactly the same since matters were long since taken out of his hands. But when he could make a meaningful decision he did at every turn, and he generally chose correctly.

What's happened in the new films is that Shinji has been given more agency, and also the ability to make the wrong decisions. In Ha he chose to fight to get Rei back, even though she was at peace with her decision and he had no reason to think he could even get her back. That was a choice, and a bad one, and there was a very clear alternative: accept Rei's sacrifice and be content with destroying the Angel. There was no need to take it further than that, and if he hadn't Unit 01 would not have awakened. Could he have known that at the time? No, but that's not the point. The point is that he did have options, and he made the wrong choice.

In Q, the line is even more brightly drawn. Did he have to go with Rei, even though he'd been told she was gone and the Eva she was piloting was similar to one he thought destroyed? No. Did he have to fight Asuka and pull the Spears? No. Did he have to ignore Kaworu, even going so far as to lock him out of the controls? No. He chose to do all of these things, not because they were the only options available to him but rather because he refused to consider alternatives. He was obsessed with recapturing the past rather than in reconnecting with the people who remained, and these are the consequences. Anno is not telling us that making our own decisions is folly; rather, he is telling us that, sometimes, we should be mindful of the needs and desires of others, and that we should try to content ourselves with what we have, even if it's difficult, rather than chase fruitless dreams that will only bring misery for ourselves and other people.

I see no basis for that notion. It is based on the presumption that the characters never had any meaningful choices to make, and as I noted above that's clearly not the case.

I wonder about that. The major choice Shinji makes in Rebuild that he didn't make in the original was the decision to save Rei as opposed to allowing her to be killed by an angel. The outcome doesn't change, though. Rei still dies, Shinji's relationships with the other people in his life are still ruined. In spite of seizing the chance to make his own decisions using the Evangelion's power, things still turn out as badly as they did before.

Everyone is slightly out of character in Rebuild. Asuka's aggressiveness was toned down (at least in 2.0), Rei made more of an effort to communicate with those around her and when Shinji chooses to to save Rei of his own accord. The changes are all for the worse, though, and to me it looks like an argument that nothing could have been changed for the better, compared to how the events of the original series went.

The notion that there were digs at the audience has long been debunked for the original, and I feel it has for the new movies as well. It's a petty notion that fails to grasp any sense of depth to the story Anno is trying to tell.[/quote]

To quote Gendo'sPapa:

3.0 intentionally goes out of it's way to refute everything the second film gave the audience. It doubles down on everything the show is about which is "the pain & problems that are created when people don't properly communicate with each other". Yes, all the problems in 3.0 could be solved with a conversation & yes, Shinji is so narrowly focused on his goal in the third act that he refuses to listen to anyone else & in turn creates problems. That's the point. 3.0 is the most direct statement Anno has made about what Eva is to HIM yet.

So yes, the Rebuilds are Anno engaging in a conversation with the fanbase about what Evangelion is & could be.

I agree that he is doubling down on the message of the original. What I think, though, is that the dig at viewer's expectations is there; even with different starting conditions in place, the narrative is still heading in the same direction as before.

[pwhodges]

Everyone is slightly out of character in Rebuild.

That's only meaningful if you start with the assumption that NGE is the only true Eva, which is equivalent to rejecting Rebuild as a new telling in its own right, even before it's finished. Actually, the differences are simply because it is a slightly different story being told in a slightly different way - the new characters are just as much in character in their new context as the old ones were in theirs.