Shin Gojira (a.k.a. Godzilla Resurgence)

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Re: Shin Gojira (a.k.a. Godzilla Resurgence)

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Postby NAveryW » Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:54 am

Today I rewatched Anno's episode of Re: Cutie Honey because my vaguer-than-I'd-realized memory of it indicated to me while I was watching Shin Godzilla that there were similarities between the two that weren't there in Anno's other works, and... mm, kind of, but less than I'd thought. The main thing is Honey has an urgency to defeat Sister Jill before the United States nukes Japan to kill her, but Shin Godzilla goes into the politics of that angle a lot more and the resolution is entirely different.

It's hard not to see resentment toward the United States in Anno's body of work as a whole. C'mon, just look at the Hawaii situation in the backstory of GunBuster. That's enough on its own. And then his statement in that interview that there are no adults in Japan because they live under "big daddy" US, and then elsewhere when he said Captain Kirk exemplifies American arrogance... He likes to show different countries working together but throughout his works the United States always presents a threat.

View Original PostC.A.P. wrote:This is the best film Anno has done that is not Evangleion related (and I'm talking as someone who hasn't seen much Godzilla movies). I don't know how he did it, but he even surpassed his previous live action films. As much as I hate to agree with Gendo'sPapa, he's right: This is the most mature and fully formed live action film he's ever done.
I know they're very different movies with very different focus, but I have difficulty understanding how one would consider Shin Godzilla both "more mature and fully formed" than Shiki-Jitsu.
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Re: Shin Gojira (a.k.a. Godzilla Resurgence)

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Oct 16, 2016 6:06 am

View Original PostNAveryW wrote:It's hard not to see resentment toward the United States in Anno's body of work as a whole. C'mon, just look at the Hawaii situation in the backstory of GunBuster. That's enough on its own.

Japan buying something from the US doesn't show any hostility Anno may or may not have towards the US. It could also just be geology. It's been estimated that due to Earth's shifting plate tectonics that Hawaii moves about 3 or 4 inches closer to Japan per year. Hawaii-Japanese relations are just going to be a thing that has to be reevaluated eventually, especially over 12,000 years into the future.

Though, I do see where Anno might be coming from when it comes to the US as "Big Brother." Our little "War on Terror" proves exactly just how much we enjoy being the World Police. And seeing how surprisingly "old-school" the US tends to be with a few things, I wouldn't be surprised if we used the Pearl Harbor attacks during WWII as a reason to fight in the UN to deny Japan a legally realized military.

If Japan were to have a realized military, I would think that they would fight with other Asian nations first. Outside of business and some relief aid here and there, we don't really factor that much in Japan's political decisions. North Korea, however, scares the crap out of them.
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Re: Shin Gojira (a.k.a. Godzilla Resurgence)

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Postby NAveryW » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:37 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Japan buying something from the US doesn't show any hostility Anno may or may not have towards the US.
Yeah but then the US went to war with Japan to get Hawaii back (starting, of course, by attacking Pearl Harbor), ending with an an overwhelming Japanese victory.
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Re: Shin Gojira (a.k.a. Godzilla Resurgence)

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Postby Guy Nacks » Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:29 am

To be fair to Anno, though, if there were any time to be critical of the US, the best time for it would be now. Even as a U.S. citizen, I don't think there's been any time when I've felt more shame towards my country than right now.
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Re: Shin Gojira (a.k.a. Godzilla Resurgence)

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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:11 am

View Original PostKRandMJ wrote::chinscratch: What are Anno's political belief's?


Artists instinctively tack left-liberal pretty much everywhere. Anno doesn't seem very conscious so I think he's just like that with some of the usual Japanese flavouring.

View Original PostNAveryW wrote: It's hard not to see resentment toward the United States in Anno's body of work as a whole. C'mon, just look at the Hawaii situation in the backstory of GunBuster. That's enough on its own. And then his statement in that interview that there are no adults in Japan because they live under "big daddy" US, and then elsewhere when he said Captain Kirk exemplifies American arrogance... He likes to show different countries working together but throughout his works the United States always presents a threat.


Maybe not that though. Back in the 1980s everyone thought Japan was going to take over the world. I hear the Alien franchise doesn't call Weyland 'Weyland-Yutani' anymore.

A surprisingly productive exchange:

Anno: When I really think it through I think that’s how it is. I don’t hate Star Trek, but I’m not that into it. You can see something of the arrogance of America [in it]. There is a story of influencing or enlightening the native people of the destination planets, or there is a romance with their most admirable woman in a front-line base. I feel like this is American imperialism itself.54

Komatsu: More than imperialism, it’s the imposition of a Christian sense of justice.

Anno: Somehow this way Marxists are portrayed as being primitive people. I can’t get used to that kind of American worldview.


It's mostly stuff you already know, really. Japan's modernisation was spurred by Commander Perry literally sailing into Tokyo Bay and telling them to open up or he'd start shooting the place up; The Japan Communist Party is the largest 3I-party in the world and Marxist educators are still influential in a lot of veins of thought; Really though I think anyone who's watched a fair bit about Anime, or just a little about Japanese politics will have seen this stuff over and over again. Akira starts with America nuking Tokyo and the original ending was basically was Amerika-jin invading the place.

1. World Peace Good
2. Nukes Bad
4. America Scary
5. Goverment corrupt
6. Marxism is worth taking seriously as an intellectual philosophy

PS (I'm not saying we SHOULD have won World War II but we definitely won on points)

Kinda like France - except for the Nukes ;-).
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Re: Shin Gojira (a.k.a. Godzilla Resurgence)

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Postby Rei IV » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:28 am

View Original PostNAveryW wrote:It's hard not to see resentment toward the United States in Anno's body of work as a whole. C'mon, just look at the Hawaii situation in the backstory of GunBuster. That's enough on its own. And then his statement in that interview that there are no adults in Japan because they live under "big daddy" US, and then elsewhere when he said Captain Kirk exemplifies American arrogance... He likes to show different countries working together but throughout his works the United States always presents a threat.

SPOILER: Show
But the United States isn't depicted as a threat in Shin Godzilla as much as a busybody (World Police, as Freaky said) at times constantly expecting the Japanese to kowtow/adhere to their terms (ALL THE TIME), no matter inane. When it's announced they're going to throw the A-bomb on Godzilla in Tokyo, the Japanese are shown showing difficultly digesting this information because not only do they view as it insane but that Japan has been through this once (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) and the fact it means the annihilation of its capital, its largest city and one of the world's major urban/cultural centers. I think it's more frustration that despite being allies with the the USA, there is no leeway for them to make their own decisions on their own terms and again, constantly being at beck and call of what we want and when we want it.
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Postby NAveryW » Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:00 am

The United States is definitely a threat in Shin Godzilla. They're not "villains" in any of Anno's work but they cause bad things to happen or will cause bad things to happen if Japan doesn't stop them. That makes the US a threat.
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Re: Shin Gojira (a.k.a. Godzilla Resurgence)

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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:27 am

View Original PostNAveryW wrote:The United States is definitely a threat in Shin Godzilla. They're not "villains" in any of Anno's work but they cause bad things to happen or will cause bad things to happen if Japan doesn't stop them. That makes the US a threat.


Dangerous and often unaccountable? I think that's the way many Japanese view...their own government.
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Re: Shin Gojira (a.k.a. Godzilla Resurgence)

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Postby Rei IV » Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:41 am

View Original PostNAveryW wrote:The United States is definitely a threat in Shin Godzilla. They're not "villains" in any of Anno's work but they cause bad things to happen or will cause bad things to happen if Japan doesn't stop them. That makes the US a threat.

Yeah, okay, this where I say let's agree to disagree.

:uhh:

SPOILER: Show
Although I'm not sure how the Japanese ever tried to "stop" the USA in anything. More like they're trying to stop the usage of the Atom Bomb by the USA as the last resort, which is a big difference.
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Postby hui43210 » Sun Oct 16, 2016 12:13 pm

Well think about it this way, how do other countries come across in most Hollywood movies? Yea, I think it's ok to see one movie that doesn't kiss the US's ass every now and then, because honestly, it really wasn't that anti-US anyways.
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Re: Shin Gojira (a.k.a. Godzilla Resurgence)

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Postby Tumbling Down » Sun Oct 16, 2016 12:42 pm

View Original PostSoryuUberAlles wrote:6. Marxism is worth taking seriously as an intellectual philosophy

Words and images cannot convey my shock and disappointment.

Does this mean I have to stop using NGE as a metaphor for Cultural Marxism? ;_;

View Original Posthui43210 wrote:Well think about it this way, how do other countries come across in most Hollywood movies? Yea, I think it's ok to see one movie that doesn't kiss the US's ass every now and then, because honestly, it really wasn't that anti-US anyways.

I haven't seen the movie yet (because life isn't faaaaiirrr), but I'm compelled to agree with this, and I'm sure I still would if I had. It is more than possible for Anno to view our government and culture as inferior without viewing us as inferior people, and that's where I would draw the line. And from what I've heard, it sounds like Anno, at worst, thinks we're morally inferior, which is completely reasonable, as other people have stated in this thread. (And in my opinion, Japan is morally inferior in certain ways, so even if I didn't take issue with the things my country has done in the past and continues to do, I wouldn't have any room to talk.)

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Re: Shin Gojira (a.k.a. Godzilla Resurgence)

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Postby hui43210 » Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:12 pm

View Original PostTumbling Down wrote:

I haven't seen the movie yet (because life isn't faaaaiirrr), but I'm compelled to agree with this, and I'm sure I still would if I had. It is more than possible for Anno to view our government and culture as inferior without viewing us as inferior people, and that's where I would draw the line. And from what I've heard, it sounds like Anno, at worst, thinks we're morally inferior, which is completely reasonable, as other people have stated in this thread. (And in my opinion, Japan is morally inferior in certain ways, so even if I didn't take issue with the things my country has done in the past and continues to do, I wouldn't have any room to talk.)


Basically, like people, no country is perfect. Canada is cited as a poster child for being very livable/freindly, but boy do we have a bunch of skeletons in our closet that I don't think many people outside our border know about.
Is the 3.0 spoiler policy gone?.... Cool, then I'm nominating myself as EvaGeeks 1# Sakura Suzuhara fan/nerd.

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Postby Guy Nacks » Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:19 pm

Every country has its strengths and weaknesses and it's not like Anno hasn't thrown a hell of a lot of criticism at his own country, which he once dubbed a "nation of children" or words to that effect.

The problem with the United States is that it tends to have a very "We're the greatest country in the history of the world" attitude when, statistically, we're not doing that great presently in terms of education, healthiness/fitness, and incarceration, amongst other things. We're also seen as interfering too much in the affairs of other nations.

To extend Anno's metaphor, if Japan is a nation of children, then the United States is the overbrearing parent.
Among the people who use the Internet, many are obtuse. Because they are locked in their rooms, they hang on to that vision which is spreading across the world. But this does not go beyond mere ‘data’. Data without analysis [thinking], which makes you think that you know everything. This complacency is nothing but a trap. Moreover, the sense of values that counters this notion is paralyzed by it.

And so we arrive at demagogy. - Hideaki Anno, 1996

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Re: Shin Gojira (a.k.a. Godzilla Resurgence)

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Postby KRandMJ » Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:45 pm

View Original PostTumbling Down wrote: Digital release of Shin Goijra when?

AVGN said that "Apparently its getting a dvd release in 2017", that's the only news I heard of.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:10 pm

Hm. I guess "Anti-American" to me means that a country is actively trying to start a war with us or is otherwise trying tear us down. I certainly don't consider people who simply criticize or dislike aspects of America to be anti-American. (Heck, I don't even consider those who sit/kneel during our national anthem in American sports to be anti-American. If anything, they're simply freely exercising their Constitutional freedom of speech. They're criticizing America, and criticism can go a long way towards improvement.)

In that sense, I don't see Anno as anti-American. He's simply not American, and therefore sees no reason to bow to our whimsey. And that's just alright with me. (Besides, have you seen America in the past couple months? I'm afraid of America and I live in it!)
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:22 pm

AVGN, man with zero real connections to industry, makes vague statement that is a given.

Speaking of making concrete announcements absolutely devoid of any personal connections to the production "I can guarantee you that the full title for Star Wars Episode 8 will be announced at some point within the next twelve months."

As for the handling of international relations in Shin Godzilla I feel Anno is one of the few filmmakers to get it right. Countries WANT to work together.

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Postby Rei IV » Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:43 pm

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:As for the handling of international relations in Shin Godzilla I feel Anno is one of the few filmmakers to get it right. Countries WANT to work together.

Pretty much this. In this movie, the USA is more akin to the World Police/Big Brother/Overbearing Parent/Busybody more than a threat for not giving the Japanese agency and allowing them to do their own thing.
SPOILER: Show
Also, Americans finally decide to work ALONG SIDE the Japanese in the end of the film.

It's a honest revaluation of the Japanese-USA relationship and how they should be able to do things without being at our beck and call. It's reasonable enough. Although I'm puzzled why Japan having its military again is considered "Right-wing"? Do some folks honestly believe there will be a resurgence of the Japanese Imperial Army if the country is allowed to re-militarize?

Here's a great review that addresses those inane claims of Anti-Americanism and right-wing nationalism.It contains some spoilers, though, for those who haven't seen the movie. It also addresses some of Shin Godzilla's faults, flaws and shortcomings but still praises it as a great film.
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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:55 pm

Rei IV, only 26% of Japanese want to revise Article 9

"Article 9 of the post-war constitution, drafted under U.S. occupation in 1947, declares that the Japanese people “forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation. This constitutional language is common among the former Axis powers. Article 11 of the Italian Constitution declares that Italy “rejects war as an instrument of aggression.” Article 26 of Germany’s Basic Law forbids “activities tending and undertaken with the intent to disturb peaceful relations between nations, especially to prepare for aggressive war.”
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Postby Rei IV » Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:08 pm

Great article, SoryuUberAlles. It does relate to what we're talking about and Shin Godzilla, to a degree. Although with one of the potential candidates for the 2016 Presidential election, Japan and other US allies have every to be weary of us and not trust us.

:uhh:
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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:23 pm

I also do think it's important to understand the way Japanese artists view war. It seems so impossible from a NATO-white point of view but that's how it is.

It appears in EVA in the way the JSSDF works but also that UN commanded fleet that has like three aircraft carriers. Even NERV is supposed be some kind of INTERPOL-like organisation. It's like Anno has absorbed the message of peace and international co-operation but EVA display a mortal fear that all these organisations are being perverted and betrayed.

Like I said I think Anno just absorbs a lot of these attitudes that's actually really common among anime-making artists and really a lot of Japanese people as well, hard as it may be to believe.

You can compare him to Hideo Kojima. He released a secret ending to MGS online that can only be unlocked if the players co-operate to ABOLISH NUCLEAR WEAPONS. Whatever the SPOOOPY JUSTICE WWWARRRLOCKS say about sex in his games he's way, way, more pro-peace than anyone allowed in American media. Some American SJWs I know are really hostile to the peace movement.

And don't get me started on Hayao Miyazaki! Srs, though, Japanese artists aren't 'ANTI-AMERICAN' because they're against America nuking stuff. In Japan, that's not even left-wing.
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