One person's wish, but whose?

[Lennik]

I think we're overthinking this. Eva 01 awakens after Shinji demands Rei back. Shinji remains in control for the entire fight, up until he pulls Rei out. He has no idea 3rd Impact is occurring. I think it's made abundantly clear by all of the events surrounding it that N3I is Eva 01 acting on what it perceives to be Shinji's wishes. Gendo's not in the plug. She wouldn't be acting on his.

Shinji reactivates Eva 01.

Shinji kills Zeruel and pulls Rei out.

Shinji doesn't power down.

Eva 01 keeps going -> N3I

[Reichu]

and Gendou called it Yui. I understand what the script called for it as. But Gendou directly and without any miscommunications spoke to the head and referred to it as Yui.

Going by this logic, Fuyutsuki calls the Rei who comes to get him in EoE "Ikari" (i.e., Gendo). What sinister implications!

As already pointed out to you, it's possible to address someone who isn't actually there. Some of the audience assumes the Rei head represents Yui, but obviously it doesn't, since that's not where Yui is. And, well, the script says it isn't Yui, which you've chosen to ignore for whatever reason.

I think it's made abundantly clear by all of the events surrounding it that N3I is Eva 01 acting on what it perceives to be Shinji's wishes.

"All" of the events, eh? So Shinji's simple little wish to retrieve Rei naturally required absorbing the Angel and opening up the Door of Guf and having Eva-01 revert into an Adams or whatever and killing all life on Earth. ...Underthinking things is as much a danger here as overthinking. :p

[KingXanaduu]

^

This is me just playing devil's advocate here, and somebody PLEASE prove me wrong at throwing this possibility out there, but what it what happened was actually a subconscious desire of Shinji to have the world "disappear"?

Think about it, we've all probably had days (especially as teenagers) where we want the world to end in some way to stop the temporary pain. We don't dare admit it to others most of the time, but it's there, as many dark thoughts exist in our subconscious.

Was Eva-01 acting on Shinji's possible subconscious desire to end the world to rid himself of the pain of the Bardiel incident and retreat into Rei's embrace?

Again, this is just me THROWING the possibility out there to be rendered null.

[ChaddyManPrime]

^
I thought that's what everyone already assumed?

Shinji had wanted to not lose anyone else so Yui granted his desire but in a monkey's paw type fashion.

[Reichu]

This is me just playing devil's advocate here, and somebody PLEASE prove me wrong at throwing this possibility out there, but what it what happened was actually a subconscious desire of Shinji to have the world "disappear"?

Oh, believe me, I've made such suggestions before, and boy does it make Shinji's public defenders upset. Never mind that shortly before the final act of the film, there is a whole scene dedicated to Shinji's thoughts about how much the world sucks, and as if one act of inexplicable superheroism automatically renders all those feelings moot.

While I feel the "unconscious desire" angle is necessary, I'm not sure even it accounts for everything that's seen. Before Shinji deploys in Eva-01 against the 10th, it's revealed to us that not only is Yui in Eva-01 in some fashion, but she can act willfully (cf. ejecting the plug). It makes little sense to jump from that to Eva-01 being little more than a genie in a lamp. If she's still anything like her NGE counterpart, Shinji is largely a means to an end -- his emotional state paving the way for Yui to exercise her own tightly-bound power and seeing her convoluted plans put into action.

Meaning, she may just be co-opting and twisting Shinji's feelings for her own purposes. Yui could most certainly have her own motivations for not wanting an Angel to run off with Lilith's soul and start an Impact she hasn't approved of. Not to mention, there are perfectly legitimate reasons for her to want the Angel itself, too.

[unitM]

Freud wrote about a death drive that people have. He called it destrudo. Ritsuko makes slight reference to it only in EoE, before Shinji initiates destrudo of his own. I think it's totally an acceptable theory, considering its in the Freudian range.

[Reichu]

Freud wrote about a death drive that people have. He called it destrudo. Ritsuko makes slight reference to it only in EoE, before Shinji initiates destrudo of his own. I think it's totally an acceptable theory, considering its in the Freudian range.

Not Ritsuko, I'm afraid, since she was a bit dead by the time the reference was made. (It was Hyuga.) The term is also referenced on computer screens a couple of times in the TV series (Ritsuko unlocked the Rei clones' "destrudo release" and let them spontaneously destruct, and there was a destrudo/libido graph in #20 if memory serves).

[pwhodges]

Oh, believe me, I've made such suggestions before, and boy does it make Shinji's public defenders upset. Never mind that shortly before the final act of the film, there is a whole scene dedicated to Shinji's thoughts about how much the world sucks, and as if one act of inexplicable superheroism automatically renders all those feelings moot.

Well, isn't rescuing Rei precisely the strongest possible reason at that point for Shinji to reject the idea of destroying the world, however close he might have been to thinking of it before? Why bother to rescue her at all if it means bringing her back to nothing? And whatever else he feels at the start of Q, there's no sense of disappointment that it turns out he's failed to destroy the world, not that I can see.

[unitM]

Not Ritsuko, I'm afraid, since she was a bit dead by the time the reference was made. (It was Hyuga.) The term is also referenced on computer screens a couple of times in the TV series (Ritsuko unlocked the Rei clones' "destrudo release" and let them spontaneously destruct, and there was a destrudo/libido graph in #20 if memory serves).

interesting. I wonder if releasing the destrudo instinct in the Rei clones was a step in instrumentality. I know the Rei clones died, but it's an interesting thought, if it was somehow passed onto Rei II.

[Reichu]

pwhodges: You seem to be disregarding the element of subconscious desire already mentioned, not to mention caricaturing the boy into some kind of 100% pure and completely non-paradoxical soul (which describes no human in the history of ever). If Eva-01 is actually acting upon Shinji's will in any meaningful way, then everything must be accounted for. Why is Shinji only allowed to be the "wishmaker" up until the point where things start to get even more uncomfortable than blatant Oedipal overtones? Eva-01 just decides all of a sudden, "Welp, there isn't a single dark corner of Shinji's frail little mind that even once contemplated the world burning, but, hell, I guess I'll do it anyway, just for the lulz!"

..."for the lulz" explains everything.

[pwhodges]

No, I am allowing even subconscious desires to change and be moulded by circumstances. And sure, we are paradoxical a lot of the time; but that doesn't have to be the starting point, even in Eva - paradox requires normality to bounce off.

[Reichu]

pwhodges: Okay, but I don't see where that leaves us WRT everything else that I said... If you have any workable alternatives for people like me who see huge problems in casual models of fan interpretation, we'd sure like to hear them. Mere dismissal leaves me exactly where I was before.

[pwhodges]

If Eva-01 is actually acting upon Shinji's will in any meaningful way, then everything must be accounted for.

OK, so I've left that key point hanging. But then, that's rather why I started this topic in the first place - because I hadn't previously seen a careful discussion of the point.

It seems to me (and I realise we disagree on this) that Shinji's previous unhappiness with the world is not sufficient cause for Unit-01 to initiate third impact. OTOH, Gendou's remark suggests that he knows the real cause even if we do not; are there aspects to Gendou's and Yui's relationship which we have not yet understood, perhaps because we are still thinking with NGE goggles on? Having little more than fan-wanking to tell us what an impact even is adds yet more to the uncertainty. My own feeling is that we absolutely do not (yet) have sufficient information to resolve this question with certainty - but none the less some interesting details might appear while we're trying.

What if this impact is not driven by a destructive impulse at all, but by ecstasy? Shinji is indeed causing the world to change, but the destruction is a mere (!) side effect. And yet, his demeanor at the start of Q shows no remnant of any desire to change the world for either cause - he is immediately concerned for Rei and then for Asuka.

[Reichu]

pwhodges: I get stuck on the "THIS WORLD SUCKS!" train scene because it prefaces the final act of the film, and feelings really don't disappear that quickly. If his antipathy for the world becomes so inconsequential so fast, why in the world add a completely new scene focusing on it, shortly before the familiar motions of episode 19 yield to new, destructive consequences? It just doesn't pan out.

Destroying the world being a necessary side effect of fishing a core out of an Angel seems a bit much. If retrieving Rei was all that mattered, you'd think something as powerful as an Eva could do it without opening a portal to the spiritual dimension and becoming the harbinger of the apocalypse. Not to mention, she already had the core in hand, so absorbing the Angel's biomass as well seems an indulgence. (...though why on Earth would the fluid need to take on Rei's form JUST to get absorbed? Seems needlessly roundabout, IMO.)

I mean, I guess it's possible that we're playing with wacky rules of disproportionate exchange that leave FMA far, far behind...

Eva: "You can have Rei back, BUT ONLY AT THE COST OF ALL OTHER LIFE! MWAHAHAHAHA!!!"
Shinji: "Huh, what was that? I couldn't hear you over the sound of my deafening DISCO-VISION."
Eva: "If you're going to say 'Yes' without reading the terms of service, you deserve everything you get, kid. Have fun!"

I'm not sure Shinji's demeanor in Q is indicative of much besides being confused out of his mind and impulsively grasping for something, anything, of familiarity in a hostile alien environment.

My own feeling is that we absolutely do not (yet) have sufficient information to resolve this question with certainty

I don't think you'll get any disagreement from me there. :p

[Na7e]

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world.

Yeah sure it has an easy simple connotation given it directly is in response to the star gazing scene in 3.0, but it having a double meaning isn't exactly surprising since it's Kaworu the one saying it. And, given the state of Earth being basically torched it can easily fit with this unconscious desire that Shinji has.

[one-eyed]

Reichu: If I got it right, you think Shinji knew the side effect of trying to save Rei and made the conscious choice based on a subconscious decision to destroy the world? Where he was warned of the effects of his actions? I never heard Ritsuko or anyone mention anything about it. In the first film, they just stuck Shinji in Eva without and crossed their fingers. No warning about controlling your thoughts, no warning about the potential of Eva. Nothing. So the awakening of Unit 01 could occur in the first activation? Or is this just a Plot Bomb for Anno have fun and he pulled this concept the air?

At first, I thought the end of Ha was a criticism of all Shounen animes that glorify Superpowerful Evil Side (Naruto, Bleach,etc.) The scene of the "rescue" of Rei reminded me Naruto's fight with Pain when he releases the Kyuubi to fight and becomes a worse threat than his enemy, but in the end no one gets hurt and the protagonist is rescued by his father from beyond the grave. In Eva, Gendo rejoices destruction, Yui remains silent and both do not care minimally about their son.

I also think it could have been a critique of Eva fans themselves, who always expected the Unit 01 came into berserker to "save the day" and forgot that the Evas were not fully understood and that they were never meant to save the world, but to eliminate the competition (angels) and then destroy the planet themselves to carry out the wishes of Gendo and Seele.

If the movie is a moral lesson, I think no one or almost no one controls the subconscious. Even those who manage lucid dreaming can only in the upper layers of the dream. I never met someone so virtuous that never exploded with rage and said a thing to repent, but if that’s the moral of Eva Q, that only the bad desires of the subconscious are realized, that you have to have self-control at the subconscious level of yourself, especially without even warning of the risks, is too much to ask of anyone, then it was better to have left Zeruel do his job, after all, those who oppose the angels are called demons. (I think there are yogis and monks that control to the heartbeat, but I think this is exaggeration, it took me years to stop snapping fingers compulsively and after almost seven years of watching EoE I never got to have one good thought or wished something good to Hideaki Anno. It's not very fair, but it's true.)

I've thought Shinji was not a character in EoE. He was a plot device, a punching bag for Anno and Sin-eater to Gendo (I will never forget the hospital scene, it transform the ritual rape of Rei with Paw of Power, the “Divine Phallus” of Gendo in a miserable footnote and I still had to endure the "Elephant man moment" after! ). Now, in Q, I have the same situation. Shinji is basically a garbage bag, his life is over, any punishment that he suffers is like kicking a corpse and he'd better have killed himself when he could. He basically just there for his utility to Gendo and even that ended.

The "King of Lilins" does not need him for anything else and he left the trash behind. The images I saw of parallel jobs: Shinji wandering alone for a dead city after showing Mount Fuji, I remembered Aokigahara, located in the northwestern base Mount Fuji, also known as Sea of Trees or as Suicide Forest, is a gloomy place and completely silent due to the wind-blocking density of the trees and an absence of nearly all wildlife, where about 60 to 100 people commit suicide per year, add "Gloomy Sunday" as background music and release 1.0 + 3.0 during March and guarantee Anno will “inspire” many people for sure.

I never absorbed any positive moral of Eva and I think receive moral lessons of Anno is how to receive compassion lessons with Genghis Khan or lessons of racial tolerance of Hitler. Any hypothetical moral lesson to learn watching Shinji loses meaning when I watch Gendo: all defects that I see pointed at Shinji are elevated ad Infinitum in Gendo, but he is successful then he is automatically badass, cool, stoic, forgiven and admired. I think in the end Gendo is the protagonist and his “values” and beliefs and that should be considered correct in Eva and Shinji is just a distraction and a inferior being to compare and exalt "the big man" and "King of Lilins".

Shinji is nothing, has always been nothing and always will be nothing. His wishes, dreams, hopes and needs are nothing. He never took certain decisions, never will grow and, if he is lucky, after the fourth film he will be dead, buried and forgotten, including by the public.

[Reichu]

Reichu: If I got it right, you think Shinji knew the side effect of trying to save Rei and made the conscious choice based on a subconscious decision to destroy the world?

If you're referring to the little dialogue between Shinji and Eva-01, that was purely in reference to the idea of disproportionate [s]retribution[/s] exchange and was not meant to be taken completely seriously.

[KingXanaduu]

^^

I'm beginning to wonder if you guys like to be so narmininly nihilistic just to sound funny.

I mean, I know there's supposed to be a balance between optimism and realism, but this is just getting out of hand. There are hope spots in this story for Shinji, even now, and I'm sorry if you guys can't see it, but it's there.

[AuraTwilight]

I don't think anybody is being nihilistic or saying there are no hope spots...but that's entirely different from saying, "Shinji had a really bad emotional episode that made him completely fucking done with everything else and not want to deal with it anymore (like in EoE) and if Shinji wants to put his life together again and move on it'll necessarily mean facing consequences for what he did, but that's okay."

[one-eyed]

Reichu: I understood that this dialogue was only illustrative, but the question is still valid: how can anyone control unconsciously want something “evil”? How would anyone be guilty if want to strangle someone and that person died in a car accident, strangled by the belt? He would be a murderer? You can say he aren’t piloting an Eva, but if he still would not know that Eva performs evil subconscious desires he would still be an assassin monster?(because I've seen that it does not perform any kind of conscious wish). I keep wondering how the hell someone control his subconscious desires? Does Anno can? Does the Dalai Lama can? I highly doubt it. Control the subconscious body language is practically impossible. Not Anno could repress his fantasies about Gendo when he described his patterns of body language and speech, so imagine repress desires that you do not know you have and without being warned of repercussions. This smells like the lesson of moral of a hypocrite.

xanderkh and AuraTwilight:I do not think fun to be pessimistic and I'm not a nihilist, but I think that this story does not have a moral and that there is no redemption or anything positive to be absorbed it. I always thought that there were two kinds of suffering in life: the constructive that makes people stronger and destructive it is only useless misery, the life of Shinji is only the second type. For me EoE was a nihilist and Rebuilding work is certainly becoming a Dadaist work and I think the proper preface of The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn and an excerpt from Macbeth to illustrate what I understand the work and the moral lessons of Anno:

“Life’s but a walking shadow, a
That struts poor player and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.”
― William Shakespeare, Macbeth

Anno wanted to create "a tale" and is succeeding...

PERSONS attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot. BY ORDER OF THE AUTHOR
Preface of “The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn” (Tom Sawyer’s Comrade) by Mark Twain

It should have been written in the opening of Q and end of EoE. It would have been enlightening and spared many fights...