Gendo and the Spears

[Enscripture]

I didn't understand this part. Gendo tells Shinji "When the time comes, pilot Eva-13." Then, Kaworu convinces Shinji to pilot the Eva to take the spears to stop NERV and prevent Fourth Impact and it seems that they're doing it out of their own free will, but it's never shown if Gendo ordered them to do anything with the spears or to do ANYTHING.

Rei tags along, so obviously she was ordered to go with them, but, to do what? There was no mission objective other than "Pilot the EVA when it's completed."

Pilot it to do what? They were never sent down to Lilith, and Kaworu is the one that seems to be leading Shinji along. Not Gendo.

[airman4]

I dont get it well

You mean , you dont understand why Kaworu was leading ?
Dont forget that Kaworu was with gendo way before Shinji arrival

[Enscripture]

Well, what I mean is Gendo didn't order Rei, Shinji and Kaworu to go down to Lilith to get the spears. Whenever they launched the Evas before, they had an objective like kill this Angel, retrieve this. Like when Misato would talk to them before attacking an Angel and they know what they're supposed to do.

In 3.0, it's just "Get in this Eva" and no orders and Kaworu leads Shinji to the spears because that's what he wants rather than having any orders or anything from Fuyutsuki or Gendo.

[ElMariachi]

Well, what I mean is Gendo didn't order Rei, Shinji and Kaworu to go down to Lilith to get the spears.

Actually, yes he did.
SEELE's plan for Instrumentality requires to go in Lilith's Chamber with EVA-13 and uses the spears and the 12th Angel to start Fourth Impact so Instrumentality could begin, and Gendo officially followed their plan, and Kaworu officially followed it too, except that everyone had his own agenda (well maybe in Kaworu's case)

The thing is that in SEELE and Gendo's plans, Shinji's role was simply to break the seal to Lilith's Chamber and sit here and serve as back-up Impact Trigger in case something happens to Kaworu. So when briefing him, Gendo keep it to a simple "when the time come, pilot that Eva with Kaworu", because Kaworu is the "squad leader" here so he's the one in charge of saying what the rest of the group has to do and Shinji doesn't need to know more. (that and also because having him knowing too much about the details of what they planned to do was a risk, better keep him as ignorant as possible so he's more easily manipulable)

As for Rei Q, she was ordered to accompany EVA-13 and cover them, as well as to take a part in the ritual to awake EVA-13 (cutting of Mark.06's head to free the 12th Angel) the fact we didn't saw Gendo giving her the orders doesn't mean that it didn't happened, simply that it happened off-screen.

[Shinoyami65]

^Yeah, Rei Q doesn't do ANYTHING without getting ordered to do it, until the very last eighth of the movie. While Gendo doesn' explicitly say 'pull out those Spears' I suspect he either told Kaworu about it off-screen or knew that once they arrived at Lilith Kaworu would assume pulling out the Spears would be the best course of action based on whatever happened during the intervening years that we never saw.

[airman4]

Actually, yes he did.
SEELE's plan for Instrumentality requires to go in Lilith's Chamber with EVA-13 and uses the spears and the 12th Angel to start Fourth Impact so Instrumentality could begin, and Gendo officially followed their plan, and Kaworu officially followed it too, except that everyone had his own agenda (well maybe in Kaworu's case)

The thing is that in SEELE and Gendo's plans, Shinji's role was simply to break the seal to Lilith's Chamber and sit here and serve as back-up Impact Trigger in case something happens to Kaworu. So when briefing him, Gendo keep it to a simple "when the time come, pilot that Eva with Kaworu", because Kaworu is the "squad leader" here so he's the one in charge of saying what the rest of the group has to do and Shinji doesn't need to know more. (that and also because having him knowing too much about the details of what they planned to do was a risk, better keep him as ignorant as possible so he's more easily manipulable)

As for Rei Q, she was ordered to accompany EVA-13 and cover them, as well as to take a part in the ritual to awake EVA-13 (cutting of Mark.06's head to free the 12th Angel) the fact we didn't saw Gendo giving her the orders doesn't mean that it didn't happened, simply that it happened off-screen.

If i understand you well ->

In that case , kaworu doesnt have any agenda , since he didnt fucked up the mission
The only one who got an agenda was Shinji if we can call that an agenda (more a guilty crisis XD )

[pwhodges]

Shinji only had an agenda because Kaworu persuaded him. Exactly why Kaworu did that is another matter. Also it is clear that Kaworu thought Gendou had changed the spears, thus preventing Kaworu's plan for Shinji from working out. So when Shinji proceeded to ignore Kaworu, it was Gendou's plan that went ahead after all. Wille's collar killing Kaworu failed to stop it, but Mari ejecting Shinji did stop it.

The big question is whether Kaworu thought he was following Seele's plan, or Gendou's, or his own for Shinji.

[ElMariachi]

While Gendo doesn' explicitly say 'pull out those Spears' I suspect he either told Kaworu about it off-screen or knew that once they arrived at Lilith Kaworu would assume pulling out the Spears would be the best course of action based on whatever happened during the intervening years that we never saw.

I think that using the spears to start Instrumentality was the plan all along, and that Kaworu know it (remember, he's an Angel, he knows that kind of things on an instinctive level), the only thing that wasn't planned was that instead of a LoC and a LoL, there was two LoL, and somehow Gendo knew of it.

As PW said, the remaining big question is what exactly was Kaworu's agenda in all of this: did he intended to screw over both neo-NERV and SEELE, or was he still willingly following SEELE's plans thinking that it was the key to Shinji 's happiness?
That and why is he so obsessed by Shinji in the first place even before actually meeting the guy?

[unitM]

It's left vague so that Shinji is easier to manipulate. It's not lying but it's dishonest to leave out crucial information, moreso when the agent(Shinji) really has no idea what he's doing.

Put yourself in Shinji's shoes for the second. Gendou is trying to get you to do something that you don't want to do. Which would you rather hear?

a. We need to grab the Spears at the HQ bottom. The Spears are pierced through Lilith, the first angel, who is now headless. Lilith will then burst open with blood, another angel will walk into the scene, wrap around your Evangelion, and turn it into a divine radiant God-like entity, which you will be sitting inside. The activation will cause another Impact, which is, as you remember Shinji, a very destructive occult storm. During the impact, you will also destroy a large portion of the remaining buildings of the world, when you suck a twisted Black Moon out of the earth. The world will then(presumably) end, and by causing apocalypse, you'll be able to fix the bad things in your life.

b. We need to grab the Spears to fix things.

Gendou knew that when he sat Shinji down in an Eva, things would be okay. Why? Because an Eva is somewhere where Shinji is actually comfortable. He's been piloting one for awhile now. Gendou's tactic was, according to Kaworu, our only real source of knowledge on what the fuck actually happened, swapping the Spears when no one was looking. Kaworu inspired Shinji to hop in the Eva, and by being in a foreign environment, Shinji was motivated to accomplish something. That something was filled in for him, in the words of "we need to get those spears", as Shinji repeats these words when he locks Kaworu out of 13. Rei furthers Gendou's plans by doing as she's told, but she gets suspicious. When SEELE removes the autonomy of her Evangelion and Asuka asks Rei what Rei wants to do, Rei flees.

It's a simple fight-or-flight survival instinct, combined with the stress from being controlled. Rei throughout the whole event is confused and placed into a submissive position. When she defends Shinji by attacking Asuka and when she lops off 09's head to let the angel out are the times she's in a position of power, and these parts are both instructed by Gendou. However, Rei is forced to confront her powerlessness, when Asuka and 02 are ripping apart a SEELE-controlled 01. Despite her not having control over the circumstances(her fight instinct was disabled), she took a 2nd option(flight). When people perceive they are being controlled or limited, they get suspicious.

[ElMariachi]

Gendo doesn't say anything to Shinji because it's no his role to put him at ease (especially since Shinji is on bad terms with him since what happened with Bardiel), that's Kaworu's job, it's as simple as that.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

Besides, we know that Gendo was satisfied with everything that happened. Everything went according to his plans (except for something or other that Misato did, but that's beside the point in this thread.)

[Signer]

I think, the real problem is why Kaworu would even think, that Gendo wouldn't do something, like his thing with spears? If official plan was to start Instrumentality, why it would be at all possible to give control to Shinji? No one would just trust Kaworu and give him a fresh evangelion to do what he wants. Also, Gendo said that awakening of EVA 13 was part of his plan - not SEELE's.
By the way, does Gendo officially know that Kaworu is angel?

[pwhodges]

Gendou has seen Kaworu breathing vacuum, so he must know he ain't human

[ElMariachi]

I think, the real problem is why Kaworu would even think, that Gendo wouldn't do something, like his thing with spears?

Well, it's clear in Q that for some reason, Gendo managed to gain back SEELE's trust (why in the nine circles of hell would they do that is still a mystery) so Kaworu probably thought that Gendo was following SEELE's scenario to the end, then the two LoL appeared, and Kaworu realized that the Bastard King was still in his old schemes and just double-crossed him and SEELE.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

Well, it's been fourteen years. Considering that Gendo's had over a decade to do God knows what in the Evaverse, I'm not surprised if he pulled off some extraordinary shenanigans.

[ElMariachi]

That must had been some really extraordinary shenanigans he pulled off, because SEELE was really hellbent on putting him down with all of NERV back in 2.0!

[TheAdmiral]

Speaking of spears, has anyone wondered where the spear of Cassius that Kaworu/Shinji hoped to find in Central Dogma ended up?

[airman4]

Speaking of spears, has anyone wondered where the spear of Cassius that Kaworu/Shinji hoped to find in Central Dogma ended up?

impossible to say
(not) enough (official ) infos

[ElMariachi]

Speaking of spears, has anyone wondered where the spear of Cassius that Kaworu/Shinji hoped to find in Central Dogma ended up?

In some translation, Kaworu says that the Spear of Cassius "morphed" into a Spear of Longinus, meaning that the spear was right here in front of them but not in the form they wanted.
As of how Gendo did it, your guess is as good as mine!

[TheAdmiral]

In some translation, Kaworu says that the Spear of Cassius "morphed" into a Spear of Longinus, meaning that the spear was right here in front of them but not in the form they wanted.
As of how Gendo did it, your guess is as good as mine!

Quite possible. I did, however, happen to notice this while re-warching 3.0: this is when Asuka "hotwires" EVA-01 so that WUNDER can take-off.

SPOILER: Show

[URL=http://s1070.photobucket.com/user/Imaknockov/media/Monto/ScreenShot2014-12-31at10505AM_zpsbc8b4346.png.html][/URL]

It's not quite the same shape, but seeing how the last time we saw the spear of Cassius was when it was used to skewer Shinji-kun in 2.0. I can't help but wonder if WILLE were somehow able to acquire it before/during the split with NERV, or when they pulled Shin-kun/EVA-01 out of storage in orbit.