"Until You Come to me" EVA SHORT FILM 4.0 HYPE

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby Jäeger » Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:27 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Rei IV: Welp, don't look at me! :tongue:

There are people who think that romantic love is the only possible motivation for mediating between disenfranchised family members (that either aren't your own or you aren't aware are your own)? Alrighty then!


If what he ended up with was inevitable, then there was never any reason to guide it. Perhaps being more specific would help, but that's asking a lot of a Chuckman one-liner.


The funny thing it's that, after watching the three movies in a row last month, I can tell with a lot of confidence that there is not even a single inch of romanticism in their relationship. For me is impossible to see it, and IMO Shinji's rage in her rescue only works after Bardiel's incident. The hell, NTE makes so explicit (more tha in NGE) her Yui clone condition and their sibling relationship that it's very difficult think that way. They are just closer than in NGE, where her role was secondary to Asuka's, which was a real interest in their love/hate/complex feelings relationship(hey literary eagle!!! :wink: )

In NTE there is only a character with an open crush and the main character doesn´t even notice.
Do american "cool" people know that in Europe only alcoholics and homeless drink wine without food by its side???

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Postby LightDragonman » Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:57 am

Shinji x self-realization eh? Not sure what to think about that. :lol:

And I still stand by my views on the whole Shinji/Rei thing, so yeah. I guess it all comes down to how one views the characters and the like. Heck, while ^ thinks that way after watching the three films, I still don't see it. Meh, just my viewing lens again. I'm probably biased since I'm a shipper and all that, but even so, it's the fact that those two have essentially been the driving force behind most of the series (compared to the original, when it was him and Asuka).

It may be just a really close friendship/sibling-esque relationship, but until the next film comes out, it's still up in the air. That's the thing about this story. Things can be viewed in more ways than just one.

For the record, I do acknowledge that their relationship doesn't have to be romantic for bringing together family members. I would just like for it to be ship-fueled. :tongue:

Onto another topic before a shipping debate starts. XD

Can I just say how, erm, "risky" Gendo's plans were in this story so far. His plan in 2.0 mainly revolved around hoping that Rei and Shinji would develop a relationship so strong that the former would just so happen to try to sacrifice her life for the latter, and would end up in a situation that would make the latter unknowingly trigger TI. And that's not even getting into the Gambit Roulette that is his plan in 3.0. To just quote what I said in another forum. His plan is basically:

"Create a whole bunch of Rei clones to help run Neo-Nerv alongside Fuyutski and Kaworu. Wait for 14 years until Shinji can be retrieved. Hope, that WILLE goes to try and rescue him. Hope that they are able to succeed. Hope, that they don't just kill him on sight since he unknowingly caused untold amounts of suffering. Hope, that Rei II isn't able to be rescued as well. Hope, that WILLE doesn't inform him about Rei II's true status. Then send Rei Q to retrieve him, and hope that he will be willing to go with her, since hopefully, WILLE has treated him poorly. After that, hope that he bonds with Kaworu. Hope that he is told the truth about Rei II by Fuyutski so as to further convince him to try to retrieve the Spears. Also hope that Kaworu's bond with Shinji will be so strong that he'll want to go through with the plan. When said plan starts to occur, hope that they can reach the Spears no problem. Finally, hope that Shinji will pull them, even if others, including Kaworu, realize that this is a bad idea at the last minute and try to stop him. For that matter, also hope that Shinji doesn't realize that he's playing right into your hands and hope that he ignores the pleas of the others, including Kaworu, to not pull the Spears."

I'm calling bull crap on this "plan" of his.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:50 am

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:Since pwhodges bought it up, here's the original lyrics from its Wikipedia page. The line our video title is from in bold for emphasis:


'Sleep' certainly has some interesting connotations, for me at least. Yui seems to be 'asleep' inside the Eva whenever it's not 'beserk' or 'awakened'; the weird glowing eye-lights even go out whenever the thing's not active.

Shinji was also 'asleep' inside Eva-01 the entire time it was in space.

Or, as others have stated, it could be Kaworu who is waiting for Shinji to arrive.
E̱͡v͈̙e͔̰̳͙r̞͍y͏̱̲̭͎̪ṱ͙̣̗̱͠h̰̰i͙n̶̮̟̳͍͍̫͓g̩ ̠͈en̶̖̹̪d̸̙̦͙̜͕͍̞s̸̰.̳̙̺̟̻̀

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Now I know that it's true
Because I think you're so good
And I'm nothing like you

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Postby Reichu » Wed Dec 24, 2014 12:31 pm

View Original PostLightDragonman wrote:I'm calling bull crap on this "plan" of his.

It's a metaphor for being trapped in the shadow of one's parents. The specifics don't have to be realistic because it's just a story.

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Postby LightDragonman » Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:44 pm

I'm just saying, that is one awfully complicated scheme which required a lot of coincidences and exact actions to occur, and he never directly aided them aside from sending in Rei Q to fetch Shinji.

It may work as a metaphor, but to me, it's used at the expense of logic, which doesn't really seem like an even trade.
Proud fanboy of Rei Ayanami. :p

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Postby Ray » Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:55 pm

There are a few things to Remember.

One: The dead sea scrolls foretold a lot of events. Its not a big stretch to say that Gendo perused a few of them and found that the prophecy about Willes likely actions.

Two: Gendo said so himself, that Wille and Shinji were acting within 'Expected Parameters". Even excluding the knowledge in the scrolls. It's also not a stretch to say he doesn't have a psych profile on Misato and the the founding Members of Wille.

Three: Kaworu clearly knew about Shinji before Gendo was even aware of Kaworu's existence. In fourteen years Gendo could have found out that Kaworu had a bond with Shinji from a previous loop (or some similar Kabbalistic Metaphysic asspull) and knew he would fore a bond with Shinji

Four: Gendo was responsible for manipulating Shinji before. An already pschologically troubled teen waking up to find out fourteen years had passed, and responsible for ending the world, and being rejected and hated by those that supposedly cared for him? He knows Shinjis Psych profile, and what makes him tick and react better than anyone. Of course he'd go through with a plan to fix everything believing he's responsible for it.
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Postby Dataprime » Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:22 pm

you are (not) alone...until You come to me.
you can (not) advance...until You come to me.
you can (not) redo...until You come to me.

I genuinely love how good Evangelion hurts
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She's so cute. Like crazy cute. Like "She's giving me the diabetus" cute. - Gendo'sPapa

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:29 pm

With that interpretation, I can easily see Kaworu as being the focus of those lines. It's particularly relatable to Q, especially with that first one. "You are alone... until you come to me. Then, you are (not) alone."
SPOILER: Show
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Postby teh_rei » Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:11 am

I don't know if it's already been said yet, but I think the singer of Danny Boy in this short is supposed to be Rei and/or Yui. I looked up the song meaning and found a lot of relevant meanings, the most obvious being the name of the short. The fact the short ends with a shot of Shinji walking to Rei makes it look like he's been looking for her. He's always been looking for her since the end of 2.22 and Q. The song references the afterlife, and is about someone waiting for somebody while they're dead. It fits with Yui and Rei so well, well not Q Rei. Maybe that's why her arm falls apart. Her arm disintegrating reminds me of when her AT Field disappeared in EoE and her arm fell off.

There are various meanings, but no one knows for sure the true meaning Weatherly had in writing the song. Some of the most common meanings to the lyrics are:
–a parent sending a son off to war {the 3rd stanza gives credence to this belief}
–A mother/father saying goodbye to a son
–A girl saying goodbye to her sweetheart
–Young men immigrating and leaving their mother behind in their homeland {Eily Dear gives reference to this belief}


The mix between mother and girl saying goodbye to her sweetheart makes sense in context because Rei and Yui are clones or whatever.

I think the giant hand that is shown at one point is a reference to Shinji's "I'm so messed up" hand, which is a reference to when he got blood on it and stared at his palm (i can't remember what episode), which is a reference to Nadia when Jean gets blood on his hand too. But that's besides the point I guess.

SPOILER: Show
Image
Image



Does anyone know what the shot of the ocean with all the numbers in a grid pattern reference? And was the moon shown with a grid pattern in Q too?


And if you don't understand Anno's obsession with Ultraman you should try to, it makes Eva make a lot of sense. The Ultraman were beings of light too, the time limit comes from Ultraman, and maybe even the violence except it's played realistically. UFO by Gerry Anderson is another good thing to watch to understand Gendo and Fyuutsuki, and the underground base that fights aliens and stuff like that. The leader of SHADO is a total asshole at some points too, lol.
~~~

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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:25 am

View Original Postteh_rei wrote:a reference to when he got blood on it and stared at his palm (i can't remember what episode)
The very first episode, when he went to pick Rei up as she fell from the trolley.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:19 am

View Original Postteh_rei wrote:

Does anyone know what the shot of the ocean with all the numbers in a grid pattern reference? And was the moon shown with a grid pattern in Q too?
.


It's from 2.0 when Shinji and the gang go to a facility that attempts to restore the red ocean to its former colour. I thought the sequential images of the ocean were meant to reflect the different depictions of the ocean-crashing-on-the-beach scene through the films, from 1.0 to 3.0.
E̱͡v͈̙e͔̰̳͙r̞͍y͏̱̲̭͎̪ṱ͙̣̗̱͠h̰̰i͙n̶̮̟̳͍͍̫͓g̩ ̠͈en̶̖̹̪d̸̙̦͙̜͕͍̞s̸̰.̳̙̺̟̻̀

I always thought I might be bad
Now I know that it's true
Because I think you're so good
And I'm nothing like you

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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:51 pm

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:It's from 2.0 when Shinji and the gang go to a facility that attempts to restore the red ocean to its former colour. I thought the sequential images of the ocean were meant to reflect the different depictions of the ocean-crashing-on-the-beach scene through the films, from 1.0 to 3.0.

So the red shore in 1.0 presents us with a scarred world, the artificial blue shore in 2.0 is for the hope that the world will be repaired one day through humanity's efforts, and the 3.0 part represent the despair at their apparent failure?
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Postby Sicarius VI » Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:54 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:So the red shore in 1.0 presents us with a scarred world, the artificial blue shore in 2.0 is for the hope that the world will be repaired one day through humanity's efforts, and the 3.0 part represent the despair at their apparent failure?


That would make tons of sense.

Including the fact that a lot of Wille's equipment looks like it been kinda jury rigged together. The last beach had broken down parts if I'm not mistaken.
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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:18 pm

View Original PostSicarius VI wrote:Including the fact that a lot of Wille's equipment looks like it been kinda jury rigged together. The last beach had broken down parts if I'm not mistaken.

Actually I got the inverse feeling: aside from the Wunder very odd design and Asuka's damaged plugsuit at the beginning of 3.0, all of WILLE's equipment looked to be top-notch and in excellent condition, especially the escort ships and supply helicopters.

They are spartan in their design for sure, (which give them a much more militaristic look than NERV's "Jame Bond supervillain lair" vibe given by their HQ), but I don't really see the jury-rigged and old part of their equipment.

In fact I wonder if the sea turning back blue at the end of the short couldn't be a hint that WILLE still continues the efforts to restore the world via high-technology and efforts somewhere else (probably in a big base or settlement, or even several of them) and that it'll feature in Shin Eva as a symbol that hope isn't lost. (which is what the whole Aquarium trip in 2.0 was about, even lampshaded by Kaji)
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Postby unitM » Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:56 pm

Just from page 13:

@Jaegar: Romanticism(or romantics) does not imply an elevated form of intimacy. A guy can say a romantic line to a girl, sure, but that isn't the scope of the word. Romanticism involves a form of extravagant illusion, where characters are washed away in the emotions of the moment. I have some definitions I pulled up for my own sake, but since they're here, I'll welcome them to my point.

(spoilered for length)
SPOILER: Show

romance1
[n., adj. roh-mans, roh-mans; v. roh-mans]

Synonyms
Examples
Word Origin

noun
1.
a novel or other prose narrative depicting heroic or marvelous deeds, pageantry, romantic exploits, etc., usually in a historical or imaginary setting.
2.
the colorful world, life, or conditions depicted in such tales.
3.
a medieval narrative, originally one in verse and in some Romance dialect, treating of heroic, fantastic, or supernatural events, often in the form of allegory.
4.
a baseless, made-up story, usually full of exaggeration or fanciful invention.
5.
a romantic spirit, sentiment, emotion, or desire.
6.
romantic character or quality.
7.
a romantic affair or experience; a love affair.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/romance


As you can see, only one definition of romance really singles out anything to do with a love affair(and even then, one can argue that a love affair itself is grounded in illusion). Further, the definition of romantic is here.

SPOILER: Show

[roh-man-tik]

Synonyms
Examples
Word Origin

adjective
1.
of, relating to, or of the nature of romance; characteristic or suggestive of the world of romance :
a romantic adventure.
2.
fanciful; impractical; unrealistic:
romantic ideas.
3.
imbued with or dominated by idealism, a desire for adventure, chivalry, etc.
4.
characterized by a preoccupation with love or by the idealizing of love or one's beloved.
5.
displaying or expressing love or strong affection.
6.
ardent; passionate; fervent.
7.
(usually initial capital letter) of, relating to, or characteristic of a style of literature and art that subordinates form to content, encourages freedom of treatment, emphasizes imagination, emotion, and introspection, and often celebrates nature, the ordinary person, and freedom of the spirit (contrasted with classical ).


All this said, I disagree that Shinji playing Rei's savior was not a romantic notion. There were feats of magnitude, there was direct intimacy, and there was an adventurous illusion that Shinji(unfortunately) suffered from, which brought about (n)3i. I personally don't find it very hard to see the intimacy that Shinji and Rei have. Rei Q is simply soulless, and we're told that very explicitly. Yui is Shinji's mum and Rei has Yui's soul, so with Rei's soul(Yui) out of the picture, it's not challenging to understand that the intimacy that Shinji and Rei once had is not there. The occult bridge that ties Shinji and Rei together is missing.

@Ray It's not a big stretch at all to say that the DSS is Gendou's crystal ball. At the end of Q, Gendou says to Fuyu that Misato's actions were within their expectations. This is probably a throwback to the DSS, simply because I personally doubt Gendou had the knowledge to predict exactly what would have happened at 4i. It was a very chaotic place and chaos is the antithesis of prediction. Regardless, Gendou relayed to Fuyu that Misato's actions were within their predictions. I don't think a psych. profile covers WILLE's technology, such as Wunder's "ATF cage," yet Gendou seems pretty calm about the whole situation.

@Nuclear LB Anno references Freud a lot. The title "until You come to me" is a direct play on Freud's return to the womb theories, which was also flashed several times in EoE. It being about Kaworu was completely off my radar, as it should be yours, considering the short was more aligned with the Rei-Shinji relationship.

But seriously. Think about it along the Shinji-Rei relationship now.

you are (not) alone...until You come to me.
You are alone, until you come to me: EoE's apocalypse was visually shown when Shinji "returned to the womb." First he was placed in a complacent state, with his ego fulfilled(and softened). Shinji's tripping smiley face is exactly this, but further, in the concluding stages of EoE, Shinji and Yui are one and the same person. Shinji is Yui's son. This is a visual representation of returning to the womb, which Shinji relieves himself of when he was more satisfied in his life choices.

So Shinji is alone, until he returns to Yui(where he is seduced into initiating 3i, and the seduction being a process of him returning to Yui(the womb)). Shinji was immensely lonely prior to his realization that it's okay to be alone, because that's what separate people. This was him rejecting instrumentality. Yui helped him achieve it. Thus, you are alone, until You come to me... and have a self-realization on what loneliness is.

You are NOT alone...until You come to me: expanding from above, when Shinji returned to Yui, he fell into a passive state, where he was then tormented by introverted trips as he explored the apocalypse. All this Freudian symbology is quite noticeable in EoE. But upon joining with Yui, Shinji became alone, in the sense that he was the dissolution of the planet's ATF. This loneliness, he realized, was not a loneliness he found pleasant, and he rejected instrumentality. He was okay with loneliness, which was shown visually when he rejected Yui and was sent back to earth.

you can advance...until You come to me: Especially after Q, instrumentality is shown to be strongly related to infinite in a cyclical fashion. So in a sense, the initiation of the end of the world moves the world forward, but because it's in a cyclical fashion, advancing is really running back to the start.

you can NOT advance...until You come to me: The same idea as above. Yui has been shown to play an important agent in instrumentality. Shinji can't advance things until he returns to Yui(in an EoE-type deal).

you can redo...until You come to me: This is one of the more challenging expressions, I'll admit. It suggests that things can be redone, fixed, whatever, until x(Shinji) comes to y(Yui). So it's sorta conclusive. Once you return to me, things will be finalized. It still makes sense in the timeline of Eva though.

you can NOT redo...until You come to me: The above explanation, but backwards(as pointed out in the You can not advance explanation). If instrumentality is related to things going full circle(and that connection has been established, though to what extent is still on the table), then it's basically "you can't redo things until you initiate it(the meeting of Yui and Shinji).

I'd like to point out that I am aware that just because Shinji and Yui were the bread-and-butter of EoE, instrumentality doesn't always have to be initiated the same way. However, considering that until You come to me revolves around them two(01 and Rei are at their core(pun somewhat intended) expressions of Yui), and the title having a prominent Freudian basis, I'd wager that the title has to do with Shinji-Rei or even Shinji-Gendou much more than anything-Kaworu.

The fact that at the very end of the short, Shinji's ego is restored upon spotting Rei, I have high doubts about any Kaworu connection.

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Postby airman4 » Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:01 pm

The until you come to me , you can (not) redo etc
It's cannon from Anno ?

I mean how Japanese read those lines ? the meaning is the same ?

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Postby unitM » Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:16 pm

^ There is a lot of doubt behind until You come to me's canon position. It appears as though the event where this short was produced is run by both Khara and Anno though(I just got the iPad app for it and their names are posted everywhere). The story of the short also appears to proceed from Q smoothly enough too. The name "until You come to me" is the official name of the short, even in Japan.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:55 pm

View Original PostunitM wrote:Yui is Shinji's mum and Rei has Yui's soul


So far, Rei 2 = Lilith's soul, unless FINAL throws us a curve-ball. 3.0 made a point to mention Rei is from Yui's genetic material like in the NGE series.

As far as the song titling, I'd assume Anno/Khara gives the okay to whatever Sagisu decides on (while Anno either okays or comes up with the international NTE titles).
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Postby unitM » Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:58 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:So far, Rei 2 = Lilith's soul, unless FINAL throws us a curve-ball. 3.0 made a point to mention Rei is from Yui's genetic material like in the NGE series.
Yeah, I'm specifically referring to Fuyu's mention of the Rei-Yui connection in Q. I think that's good enough to quantify a Freudian theory like I did above tbh. (Was it mentioned in NTE that R2 = entirely Lilith and not in part Yui)

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Postby ReiAyanami25 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:45 am

View Original PostTMBounty_Hunter wrote:Using this short to confirm anything is silly. Only the finalized movies confirm things.


Exactly. They only way that anything within this short will be able to be considered canon is for it to be directly linked to one of the films, NME or otherwise. At least, that is what I believe, also.
For the moment, this short seems to be a bone thrown to us, allowing us to gnaw on it for a time. Crowd control through very beautiful art. I have no objections.

I am not discounting the possibility that this short may have greater underlying significance conveyed through its imagery, but for now, we can prove nothing. But theorizing is fun.

But wait. Wait. I do hope that this does not spell any kind of permanent end or absence for Rei Q. As much as I found her to be even the vaguest disappointment, I admit that I have been hopeful for her development. It really would pain me to see her relegated to near nonexistence as she sort of has been in past versions.
I hope that it is just imagery. Poetic imagery. Poetic imagery. Yes.
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"One day, when Spock isn't out to get me, I'll own my own strawberry farm!" ~ Fe

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Rei Ayanami's beauty comes from the truth that she has feelings...the struggle to draw your feelings forth, the reconciliation between your surface and your death - that, I believe, is where we truly become alive, truly become human beings." -Hayashibara Megumi


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