Why does Kaworu count as an Angel and not Rei?

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Why does Kaworu count as an Angel and not Rei?

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Postby CyberXIII » Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:57 pm

They're essentially the same thing, a Seed of Life trapped in a human shell, with all the power that comes with it. So why is Rei not considered an Angel?
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Postby pwhodges » Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:01 pm

Consider their souls: Kaworu -- Adam -- Angels; Rei -- Lilith -- Lilim.

Of course, this all gets messed up when the Lilim get described as the eighteenth angel...
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Postby The Eva Monkey » Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:10 pm

Because it's an arbitrary numbering system.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:15 pm

I’ve always considered Rei an Angel, playing with my heart. (Yeah!)

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Re: Why does Kaworu count as an Angel and not Rei?

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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:23 pm

View Original PostCyberXIII wrote:They're essentially the same thing, a Seed of Life trapped in a human shell, with all the power that comes with it. So why is Rei not considered an Angel?

Maybe it simply never came up. Assuming SEELE know that Rei has Lilith's soul, maybe they have a "19th Angel" designation for her, if they don't know then there's no reason Rei has any Angel designation.
Besides unlike Kaworu she was extremely low-key with her powers, she only visibly used them once, to negate Kaworu's AT Field with her own. (here assuming that she even had access to those powers before EVA-00's destruction, since it's speculated that in its core was part of her soul and with it part of her powers)
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Postby AuraTwilight » Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:12 pm

What if Kaworu and Rei are both 'Tabris'?
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Postby Rosenakahara » Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:21 pm

Well Rei's body was likely constructed in a very different way than kaworu's since it was intended to be a host for yui's souls at first, meaning it would be closer to a human body, that could also be why Rei really couldnt do much with said body aside from getting back at gendo and merging with the lilith body once more.

Kaworu was always intended to live as an angel and i imagine seele made kaworu a body in which he could use his angel powers more easily, even then his AT field wasn't nearly as strong as some of the angels that had come before as that sort of implies that AT field projection gets weaker the closer to human the angels get since humans are social creatures as opposed to the angels who are literally the loneliest beings in the universe.
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Postby Dataprime » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:43 pm

But Rei is an angel.. in my heart

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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:12 am

@Rosenakahara: Genetically speaking, Rei and Kaworu's bodies are 100% human, it's their AT Field that added the weirdness that's their red eyes and blue and silver hair color respectively. And it was intended to be human, or else they wouldn't had been able to live and work in NERV without triggering all the alarms from the biological scanners.

Also, both their AT Fields aren't weak at all, in fact it's the contrary: when Kaworu reach Terminal Dogma and protect himself from EVA-01, the scanners indicates that he generated the strongest AT Field ever recorded, and that the AT Field emitted from the mysterious second source (Rei) that negated Kaworu's was of equal strength.

So yes, Rei deserved her own Angel designation as much as Kaworu, but didn't got one because for some reason ADAM and Kaworu/Tabris are considered by SEELE as two different entities while Rei is just considered as the 2nd Angel's soul (Lilith) in a human vessel.
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Postby Sorrow » Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:17 am

Well, aren't Seele unaware of Rei? At least, as anything more than a pilot. It seems Seele are in possession of the scrolls, and are the ones naming/identifying the angels, and assigning a number to them. Rei wouldn't be classified as an angel by Nerv, to keep her role a secret; nor by Seele as they're unaware.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:44 am

That’s true, Seele does seem to be the only ones keeping tabs on the Angels’ names. But at the same time, Seele wasn’t aware of Iruel (the 11th Angel in Episode 14) and yet it still has an angelic name.

(Just who named the 11th Angel anyway?)

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Postby UrsusArctos » Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:55 am

Seele did hear about the Ireul incident but wasn't able to confirm it - and that's pretty plainly seen in Episode 14 with Gendo openly inviting them to examine the data recorders on the Magi. They heard about the incident later and were none too happy that Gendo had lied to them and let an Angel invade HQ. By Episode 23, they've named Ireul and placed it in the lineup as the 11th.

Otherwise, I think Sorrow is right on the money here : Rei didn't get an Angel designation simply because Seele never confirmed that she was one. Mankind/the Lilin don't get an official "18th Angel" designation either.
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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:55 am

Rectification: NERV tried to hide Iruel from SEELE, and the fact he's shown during the recap of episode 14 means that NERV failed to hide it.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:56 am

No, he's not seen in the recap of Episode 14. Seele heard about the Angel invading but couldn't confirm it, and Keel was none too happy about it.
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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:28 am

I was typing my message when you posted yours, I was actually answering to Freaky, and you proved me wrong anyway. -o-;
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Postby Monk Ed » Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:03 am

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:Otherwise, I think Sorrow is right on the money here : Rei didn't get an Angel designation simply because Seele never confirmed that she was one. Mankind/the Lilin don't get an official "18th Angel" designation either.

Rei might not have earned an Angel designation in Seele's eyes even if they knew about her, because it seems the Angels were a limited (and possibly rather well-defined) set:

?? (OFF):
At last, we have defeated up through the 16th Angel.

?? (OFF):
That leaves only one Angel described in Seele's Dead Sea Scrolls.

Rei was Gendo's creation and very much not part of "the plan". Whether the SDSS were a legit prophecy or not, Seele treated it like one and probably wouldn't have gone out of their way to come up with a name for her after already assigning the existing ones.

Given the loose terminology in the series between what counts as an Angel and what counts as a human (or both), I've half a mind to think that the only proper definition of an Angel is whatever specific entities the SDSS names as "the Angels", like it's more of a gang name or a name of a set of roles in the scenario than a species designation (which incidentally would also explain why the Evas don't count despite being copies of one or two of them). In which case, Rei (qua Rei, as opposed to Lilith) would not count by virtue of not being described.

The above is actually a thought that only just came to me as I was writing this post too, and now I'm wondering how I never saw it before. :lol: Now it doesn't feel so weird anymore to think of Lilith nor the Lilin as an "Angel".
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Postby UrsusArctos » Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:16 pm

But if Rei had been rumbled as Lilith's soul vessel and Kaworu's direct counterpart, would Seele have looked in the SDSS and matched one of the Angel descriptions to her? We never get to see whatever was in those scrolls anyway, and it might as well have been nigh-indescribable gibberish. How the heck does Seele seem so confident of understanding a bunch of scrolls written by...whom???? The FAR? (I forget this part and need to check with the CI)

There might be a far more mundane explanation for Seele knowing the number of Angels - it's possible that the Angels were present in the Antarctica Geofront in egg/foetal form and were excavated and counted (but not transported) before Adam let loose 2I and blew up, scattering them to the weirdest places possible where they could mature.
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