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Re: Hollywood's "Ghost in the Shell"

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Postby movieartman » Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:08 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:over-sized Velociraptors

The funny thing about this always has been that the film versions are the actual size of another Raptor Deinonychus that looks exactly the same just larger, they could have just used that for the film but Velociraptor sounds cooler.

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Re: Hollywood's "Ghost in the Shell"

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Postby Reichu » Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:19 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:He probably didn't know about the feathers thing but a major theme of the book is that the dinosaurs were manufactured to be what the public expected to see.

Quite the opposite, actually! Back then, the public expected to see lethargic, tail-dragging, oversized lizards. Instead, they got dinosaurs more in line with the Dinosaur Renaissance of the day (cf. Bakker, Horner, Paul, et al.). During one of Wu's POVs in the book, he laments that Hammond was more than pleased with the way the dinos turned out and did not let him purposely engineer them to be in line with pre-Renaissance standards. Hammond wouldn't even let Wu alter the dinosaurs to make them safer for visitors; he was THAT obsessed with what he considered authenticity. Having pulled out my copy again, Wu does comment about how the dinosaurs aren't as real as Hammond thinks they are, but the context is actually different from what JW seemed to be going for. That is, InGen has merely "reconstructed" the past, not "recreated" it; despite the best efforts of Wu and his team, all they've created is a fabricated facsimile.

(Crichton actually would have known about the at-the-time notions re: dino feathers, having read Greg Paul's work, but back then the idea was a deduction based on phylogenetic bracketing and such, and was soundly rejected by a majority of the paleo community, so I can't really blame Crichton for not including it. He did give us fluffy tyrannosaur chicks in the sequel novel, which is more than the films ever provided!)

@Bagheera: As far as I recall, JW's wink at the "NO FEATHERS" thing was a "these are theme park monsters, not real animals" slant (which, ironically, we are not actually supposed to take at face value, since the film goes to such lengths to show that, however they were made, they ARE real animals thankyouverymuch), while book!JP seemed far less interested in wink-wink-nudge-nudge justifying away inaccuracies and more interested in telling a cautionary tale about humans playing with fire. Most of what you mentioned falls in the vein of the expected "unforeseen consequences". Resurrect an animal you previously knew only from bones? Don't be surprised if it ends up with dangerous features you never expected (hence the venom). Try to fix patchy DNA with that of countless extant animals? Assuming you succeed, you won't know what the phenotypic consequences will be until you grow the damn thing, and even then they might not show up for a while. ...Not sure if I ever "got" the oversized dromaeosaurs. Could just be Rule of Cool, could also be a comment on InGen not being paleontologists and hence not doing a very good job at matching the stuff they've grown to already named genera. Trying to make matches would be a dubious prospect in the first place, since what are the odds of growing a previously known genus, really?

@movieartman: A very common meme, but, alas, not actually true. The film's dromaeosaurs are much larger than Deinonynchus, and somewhat smaller than Utahraptor.
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Re: Hollywood's "Ghost in the Shell"

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:47 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:@movieartman: A very common meme, but, alas, not actually true. The film's dromaeosaurs are much larger than Deinonynchus, and somewhat smaller than Utahraptor.


Though not by much. IIRC Sam Winston was credited with saying in response to Utahraptor's discovery, "we made it, and then they discovered it!" The movie raptors are within the lower range of Utahraptor's size range, so he wasn't far wrong. But anyway, you can compare dromie sizes here; it's pretty obvious the Utahraptor is the best fit for the movie's "raptors".
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Re: Hollywood's "Ghost in the Shell"

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:10 pm

^ Yeah, but "Velociraptor" sounds cool and extreme and 90's, while "Utahraptor" sounds like a boring retirement ranch for birds, and Hammond has an entertainment business to run, so...
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Re: Hollywood's "Ghost in the Shell"

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Postby Reichu » Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:57 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:it's pretty obvious the Utahraptor is the best fit for the movie's "raptors".

Not if you want it to be consistent with the lore. The first novel tells us that the amber they used to make the "raptors" came from China. AFAIK there's no Utahraptor chinensis. ;p Projections for Utahraptor's size also seem to vary a lot; some are closer than others, but all of them ARE too big for JP raptors in the end. Some JP fans have wandered outside the box and suggested Achillobator (which was found in Mongolia).

Frankly I don't understood the cultural obsession with making the "Parkoraptors" match an existing dromee. As a purely fanwanktastic mental exercise, sure, no problem, but the collective compulsion seems to go deeper than that. Like I said, there's no reason the raptors have to match up with any specific species, and it actually makes perfect sense if they don't. The blood in the mosquito could have easily come from a species previously unknown to science. InGen should have just made up an awesome-sounding new genus for them and called it a day.

(BTW, I requested a split, so the GitS thread should be back on track soon enough.)
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Re: Jurassic World

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Postby Ray » Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:34 pm

Jurassic World 2 Begins Filming in February 2017

http://screenrant.com/jurassic-world-2- ... -february/
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Re: Jurassic World

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Postby Chuckman » Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:17 pm

Jurassic Park
Jurassic Park: The Lost World
Jurassic Park 3
Jurassic World
Jurassic World 2

That's some Rambo shit right there.

Reichu wrote:Not if you want it to be consistent with the lore. The first novel tells us that the amber they used to make the "raptors" came from China.


The first novel also tells us that all the dinos are chimera freaks created from blending actual dinosaur, avian, reptile, and amphibian DNA and Wu made them look scary because Hammond wanted them that way and didn't think of the consequences of creating man sized, chimpanzee intelligent, cheetah fast eating machines with knives for fingers.

*stares intently*
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Re: Jurassic World

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:36 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:*stares intently*

If you're A-okay with JW making excuses to be deliberately behind the times, I don't know what to tell you. JP probably did more than anything else to update the public's perception of dinosaurs, so the hand the franchise has been dealt in what is supposed to be a revival is just more of the usual zombification. The decision is even nonsensical in the film itself, as we're told the public is sick of the park's dinosaurs -- HEY, DID YOU CONSIDER UPDATING YOUR STOCK TO BRING PEOPLE BACK IN? It'd be like the AMNH bitching about dropping attendance to their dino exhibit while they still have a bunch of inertly posed tail-draggers on display.
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Re: Jurassic World

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Postby Chuckman » Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:40 pm

IT'S IN THE ORIGINAL BOOK
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Re: Jurassic World

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:06 pm

Do you want to have a conversation or not? Yelling at me about an unspecified "it" while ignoring my post suggests you don't, so then why reply at all?
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Re: Jurassic World

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:14 pm

I don't understand why you keep ignoring the fact that the "excuse" used in JW wasn't something they came up with after the fact, but instead the very premise behind the creatures in the original book. They're being 100% consistent with what's come before, so I don't understand the basis of your complaint at all.
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Re: Jurassic World

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Postby Chuckman » Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:26 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Do you want to have a conversation or not? Yelling at me about an unspecified "it" while ignoring my post suggests you don't, so then why reply at all?


I'm not even supposed to be here but, no, I don't want to have a conversation. I've explained repeatedly that the explanation in the movie for why the dinos look wrong was in the novel that the films are based on, which was published twenty three fuckibg years ago. Jurassic World didn't contrive an excuse, it's in the book.

If you will read back to my lengthy and detailed analysis of the films and nice you will find that the "excuse for not having feathers" is in fact in the novel upon which the films are based. Not only is it present in the novel is the thematic lynchpin of the entire book. It's that the story is actually about on the most basic level.

It's not my interpretation. It's a word for word on the page conversation between Hammond and Wu on the page an Malcom spends several pages ranting about it.

This is like arguing with someone who insists that the Force Awakens made up that dumb force cheap to explain why humans have telekenisis when they clearly don't IRL.
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Re: Jurassic World

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:15 pm

Chuckman: I'm not going to sift through the thread to find your "lengthy and detailed analysis". I do remember asking for a pointer to any parts of the novel relevant to the conversation that I was forgetting about. I don't recall getting a response.

Anyway, this seems to be the part of Jurassic World that everyone is thinking about:

Henry Wu: You are acting like we are engaged in some kind of mad science. But we are doing what we have done from the beginning. Nothing in Jurassic World is natural. We have always filled gaps in the genome with the DNA of other animals. And, if their genetic code was pure, many of them would look quite different. But you didn't ask for reality. You asked for more teeth.

I'm of the opinion that this is nothing more than JW using half-hearted lip service to the original novel to justify its own lazy dedication to nostalgia. Trevorrow's excuse here seems to be, "They're scaly because they're hybrids and they're not real!" And both of you are acting as apologists for him on the basis that... the original novel totally exempts him, somehow? I guess if you (A) pick and choose what elements of the novel you want to pay attention to, and (B) totally ignore the fact that JW is NOT the same exact thing as JP despite the inevitable overlap.

If you'll recall, the reconstructed species in JP were never considered "finished". Their imperfection was recognized, so their genomes were tweaked as "errors" were detected, and newer versions would be released. And Wu actually does mention the possibility of getting paleontologists' two cents on how the dinosaurs turned out so that further tweaks could be made. In JW, they've obviously had a looooong time to get things as correct as possible. An "impure genetic code" is absolutely no excuse for the lack of feathers, considering genetic technology has advanced enough to create custom-designed animals. If JW's people were aware of a particular glaring flaw -- and a real life JW certainly would have been -- they could have easily fixed it. Man, if people think the scientific outrage over JW the movie is something, just imagine the outrage over a real-life zoological park that insisted on keeping its cloned dinosaurs naked in the face of a flood of fluffy fossils. It actually beggars disbelief that the autistic kid didn't say anything about this... If I were him I would have been ranting about it the whole trip. :p

Another thing about this whole debacle about which I've wondered in futility is just why all these part-bird/croc/wtffrog?!? hybrids magically have perfect scaly hides. NONE of them have feathers even "by accident". Not to mention, according to the justification for scaly hides, some of these dinosaurs should be skin-breathing amphibians. Of course, the real reason for this is that the whole "hybrid" excuse is an ill-conceived afterthought used to preserve the sanctity of these movie monsters' appearances as if they were Godzilla or xenomorphs as opposed to creatures that actually walked this planet once upon a time.
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Re: Jurassic World

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:33 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:If you'll recall, the reconstructed species in JP were never considered "finished". Their imperfection was recognized, so their genomes were tweaked as "errors" were detected, and newer versions would be released. And Wu actually does mention the possibility of getting paleontologists' two cents on how the dinosaurs turned out so that further tweaks could be made. In JW, they've obviously had a looooong time to get things as correct as possible. An "impure genetic code" is absolutely no excuse for the lack of feathers, considering genetic technology has advanced enough to create custom-designed animals. If JW's people were aware of a particular glaring flaw -- and a real life JW certainly would have been -- they could have easily fixed it.


Why would they? It's always been about spectacle, never accuracy, so I don't see why they should care about "getting it right". Your expectations here are wildly out of step with what the movie seems to have been trying to achieve.
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Re: Jurassic World

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Postby Ray » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:34 pm

Jurassic World 2 will allegedly have a 260 MILLION Dollar budget!

http://www.scified.com/news/jurassic-wo ... on-dollars

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Re: Jurassic World

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Postby Ray » Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:06 pm

http://collider.com/jurassic-world-2-st ... ium=social

Jurassic World 2, will allegedly be more suspenseful and scary in keeping with the spirit of the original film.
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Re: Jurassic World

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Postby Chuckman » Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:17 pm

Was the original suspenseful? To me even Speilberg's most suspenseful film, Jaws, was more of a men's adventure yarn than anything. I'd call Jaws the exemplar of the men's adventure genre.

Jurassic Park the movie is more of a straight up adventure film if you ask me. It certainly doesn't demonize the dinosaurs.

Jurassic World felt like they had a horror script, then rewrote it into a more family friendly film and some horror bits were left over. You don't need me to tell you what I mean.
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Re: Jurassic World

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Postby Director Black » Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:56 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Was the original suspenseful? To me even Speilberg's most suspenseful film, Jaws, was more of a men's adventure yarn than anything. I'd call Jaws the exemplar of the men's adventure genre.

Jurassic Park the movie is more of a straight up adventure film if you ask me. It certainly doesn't demonize the dinosaurs.


The original was suspenseful, but not in the same way Jaws was. It was, at it's core, a popcorn movie.
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Re: Jurassic World

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Postby Sachi » Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:12 pm

The original had perfect pacing, including the moments of suspense, but overall it's not a very suspenseful movie. It's like Chuck says, a family adventure movie (done really, really well).
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Re: Jurassic World

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Postby Ray » Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:29 pm

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a family adventure movie.

that scene with the T-Rex is still easily one of the scariest things in film. on par with the xenomorph kill scene in the original alien. the rain pouring down the T-Rex Lumbering left and right, the kids screaming and Alan doing his best to try and keep them from being seen by the color blind T-Rex.

I really wish that they would make an R-rated Jurassic Park movie. I mean can you imagine a slasher movie with Dinosaurs?
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