Shinji likes space: 3.0/FINAL foreshadowing?

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unz
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Postby unz » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:02 am

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:Technically Shinji already did the "drifting in space without aging" thing while he was sealed in the tesseract. But I do think space could be an avenue for him going forward once all the Eva stuff is done.

Kaji and Kaworu both told him he needed to find something that gave him happiness, and space is one of them. Shinji could become an astronomer or even an astronaut. Humanity still has the capability and if there's any Eva tech left over after the last movie, space travel could be even easier than before. Shinji could go explore the moon!


To me the space hobby just calls back to the return to the womb, making something universal out of it -no pun- for the oedipal complex stuff from the Ha impact. Not sure if it was successful but maybe it saved screentime from mind wankery with visual aids.
Shinji can't explain it to himself (nor to kaworu in Q) with all the crap that is going on in Ha but at some point he admits there's a comfy familiar feeling in piloting the eva and looks for the same thing in his hobbies.
I don't have the motivation to watch the date scenes. I remember kaworu essentially mocking him his own way though (or ranting on feelings...whatever).


About the fate thing, kaworu makes a prophecy which takes place in the ending giving Asuka the role of "fate". Shinji has no clue he's catatonic and everything but very afraid of her reaction (it's a matter of subs again but after Shinji finds out reiQ is not Rei and the mental breakdown piano starts you can hear and read lines he doesn't want to hear from his fav girls - not a single one from kaworu tho- and decides he can't trust anyone).

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Postby Reichu » Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:00 pm

View Original Postgryzzli86 wrote:Which is also, incidentally, pretty much the ending of Gunbuster

I thought the ending of Gunbuster was two young women and a busted-up robot getting pulled thousands of years into the future by a huge-ass gravity well and being welcomed back to Earth...
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Postby unz » Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:59 pm

Btw I think I remember some cosmic shots from nge's mind trips but I can't point anything atm.
I only remember a red one from Rei's trip in 14, "the woman who doesn't bleed" yadayada.

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Postby KRandMJ » Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:14 pm

View Original Postgryzzli86 wrote:Which is also, incidentally, pretty much the ending of Gunbuster, so I like where that idea is going.
...
tl;dr: I like the space thing, the Wunder being thematically linked to the Nautilus makes me wonder whether it might also serve as a spaceship, also Shinji/Unit 01 drifting in space forever and ever without ever aging, because Gunbuster.

I do see thematic overlap between Gunbuster and Eva, however I argue that it would be more similar to EOE,
(with Yui/Unit 1 drifting in space forever and ever without ever aging) than Gunbuster.



As of now, Anno can do literally anything he wants in the next film.(So many avenues the plot can explore)
It all depends on Anno, if he made rebuilds just to make money or to tell a story.
.
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Re: Shinji likes space: 3.0/FINAL foreshadowing?

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:29 pm

I'd say the entirety of 3.0 illustrates that Anno isn't doing this for just the money. If he was in it for just the money the third film would have been a lot more like the first half of 2.0 with very fan-friendly scenes of Asuka & Kaworu fighting each other for Shinji's affection.

The only thing we can be sure of about Final is that we can't be sure of anything.

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Postby KRandMJ » Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:23 pm

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:I'd say the entirety of 3.0 illustrates that Anno isn't doing this for just the money. If he was in it for just the money the third film would have been a lot more like the first half of 2.0 with very fan-friendly scenes of Asuka & Kaworu fighting each other for Shinji's affection.

The only thing we can be sure of about Final is that we can't be sure of anything.

Yes, however 3.0 had many scenes that utilized Anno's past works, like Nadia.

I know that it's common for studios to reuse material from prior productions. (Like NGE)
However such practices were done-so in order to save money on the production.

Either 3.0 used concepts from Nadia i.e [Tower of Babel (Structure & track)] as a reference to Nadia, or to save money on 3.0's production. Also, 3.0 had it's share of plot convinces. (although not as many as seen in 2.0)

What I mentioned above suggests that Anno is less interested in presenting a story.
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:34 pm

Re-using ideas, concepts or themes is not really a case of "saving money". It just might so happen that those are ideas that interest Anno as a person & thus it's only natural that they'd be recurring motifs or images in his work. The use of tracks from Nadia - greatly updated - is probably a case of a filmmaker calling back to his previous works.

I think you're confusing story with presentation. I'd say it's a given Anno is 100% invested in the story because instead of just giving the fans more of what they wanted he took a genuine risk with 3.0 and had the film go down a drastically different path tonally & narratively that knowingly alienated a great deal of fans. 3.0 is not a case of a filmmaker making an error in judgement by trying to give the fans too much of what they wanted (Spider-man 3 is the first thing that comes to mind) but is a case of a filmmaking knowingly taking the story down a path that doesn't play to as broad an audience as the first film.

Anno didn't re-use images & concepts from his earlier work to "save money". He re-used them because that's what connects him to on some level as an artist. Had they re-traced over scenes from Nadia or lifted entire sequences whole sale maybe that argument would have merit. But, I doubt there's a lot of cost cutting going on with these films at this point.

Also I'd argue you're confusing plot with story. The story of the Rebuild series is all about Shinji's emotional journey. And based on 3.0 I'd say that's where Anno's interest in Rebuild truly lies. Any plot contrivances or similarities to previous works by Anno is just another signifier of who he as an artist and what he's ultimately interested in. Accusing him of disinterest in telling an original story because of repeating themes or motifs means we may as well start calling all filmmakers who repeat the same themes in their works - Martin Scorsese, Akira Kurosawa, Wes Anderson, Lynne Ramsay, Hayao Miyazaki, etc etc etc - "cost cutters who aren't interested in telling stories".

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Re: Shinji likes space: 3.0/FINAL foreshadowing?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:31 am

I doubt Shiro Sagisu was cutting Hideaki Anno a deal by saying "Let's spend a lot of time and money re-arranging, re-orchestrating, and re-recording some older scores." After all, there is very little "new" music in these new Eva films, as most of them are re-used from the older TV series from 1995. Any music was wasn't re-used from NGE was re-used from either Kare Kano or Nadia, with one piece (Yamashita) pulled from some completely unrelated live-action film.

In fact, I think Eva Q has the most original score in any of these new Eva films. There's only one piano piece that pulls from one of NGE's tunes, the rest of the piano score is all new stuff written specifically for Eva Q.

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Postby Eliaskar » Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:55 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:
In fact, I think Eva Q has the most original score in any of these new Eva films. There's only one piano piece that pulls from one of NGE's tunes, the rest of the piano score is all new stuff written specifically for Eva Q.

I just went through 3.33's soundtrack to double-check this, which piano piece was pulled from NGE because I can't seem to find it?

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Postby Reichu » Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:41 am

View Original PostEliaskar wrote:I just went through 3.33's soundtrack to double-check this, which piano piece was pulled from NGE because I can't seem to find it?

Here you go.
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Postby Eliaskar » Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:26 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Here you go.

Ahhh. Yet another thing I didn't notice, seemed subtle. Pretty cool though.

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Postby KRandMJ » Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:19 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote: Any music was wasn't re-used from NGE was re-used from either Kare Kano or Nadia, with one piece (Yamashita) pulled from some completely unrelated live-action film.

In fact, I think Eva Q has the most original score in any of these new Eva films. There's only one piano piece that pulls from one of NGE's tunes, the rest of the piano score is all new stuff written specifically for Eva Q.
I caught these while listening to 3.0.
(Wait 20 sec's after bombastic intro music)
God's Message------------------------------------Babel No Hikari (Nadia)
https://youtu.be/iid9h3WvDtA----------------https://youtu.be/Q3UJOhxdv9Q

The Wrath of God in All its Fury---------------Background Music II (NGE) (20sec mark)
https://youtu.be/1TTjknLPJ8U---------------https://youtu.be/m-C9GV5Rr30

The Anthem--------------------------------------Warera No Bannou Senkan N-Nautilus-Gou (Nadia) -----(not sure if the name is correct)
https://youtu.be/kJwRJpvcvY4---------------https://youtu.be/2w-49TM6ilE
WARNING:(Potential Spiolers)

You mentioned "Kare Kano" can you list the tracks please?

Eliaskar wrote:Ahhh. Yet another thing I didn't notice, seemed subtle. Pretty cool though.
Out of curiosity, did you notice these?

Also I predict that "Nadia's resolution" will be used in the last film.
Nadia's resolution
https://youtu.be/qa-ujaF430Y
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Postby gryzzli86 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:12 pm

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:It just might so happen that those are ideas that interest Anno as a person & thus it's only natural that they'd be recurring motifs or images in his work. The use of tracks from Nadia - greatly updated - is probably a case of a filmmaker calling back to his previous works. [...] Anno didn't re-use images & concepts from his earlier work to "save money". He re-used them because that's what connects him to on some level as an artist. [...] Any plot contrivances or similarities to previous works by Anno is just another signifier of who he as an artist and what he's ultimately interested in.


I completely agree, and I'd go one step further. I think that by doing this amount of callback to Nadia, he's trying to tell us something, through NTE, that pertains to his entire career as an artist. Remember, Nadia was his baby, and what NHK did to him with the Island and Africa filler arcs is essentially the artistic equivalent of a coat-hanger abortion. He was so depressed, to say the least, over getting shafted that badly by NHK, that he wrote NGE as catharsis. That's how central this part of his life was to his creative career.

It's not a cost-cutting measure, as you or someone else mentioned, because 1) the budget for 3.0+1.0 is pretty much infinite at this point and 2) he literally had Sagisu re-arrange like 5 major leitmotifs from Nadia and pepper them throughout NTE, most noticeably 3.0. With all due respect to Sagisu, if Nadia's soundtrack was two guys and a Casio, the rearranged tracks sound like Sagisu gave the sheet music to Beethoven and said "just go crazy".

Given that as far as we know, 3.0+1.0 is meant to be, if not his magnum opus, *the* conclusion to a franchise he's tried to conclude for almost 20 years, which itself was meant to be a coping mechanism for NHK utterly destroying him, I wouldn't be surprised if the thematic overlap was actively a part of the message, along with the actual dialogue and visuals. Perhaps a way to say, "Look, my life doesn't begin and end with Eva. You'll never be happy with a conclusion to this story however many times I tell it, because you won't listen to what I'm trying to tell you about who I am as a person and as an artist. It's not about the knock-off Judeo-Christian imagery. It's not about the Gainax boobs. It's about dealing with depression with no real support and relentless external pressure."

Bleak, but I honestly wouldn't blame him. I'm putting him right up there with George R R Martin in the list of authors whose works are so game-changing that you want to know how they end before the author dies so everyone can achieve mass nirvana or something, but the fans can get so gross and pissy that it's a wonder we haven't driven them to an early grave as it is.
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Postby KRandMJ » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:19 am

View Original Postgryzzli86 wrote:I completely agree, and I'd go one step further. I think that by doing this amount of callback to Nadia, he's trying to tell us something, through NTE, that pertains to his entire career as an artist. Remember, Nadia was his baby, and what NHK did to him with the Island and Africa filler arcs is essentially the artistic equivalent of a coat-hanger abortion. He was so depressed, to say the least, over getting shafted that badly by NHK, that he wrote NGE as catharsis. That's how central this part of his life was to his creative career.

It's not a cost-cutting measure, as you or someone else mentioned, because 1) the budget for 3.0+1.0 is pretty much infinite at this point and 2) he literally had Sagisu re-arrange like 5 major leitmotifs from Nadia and pepper them throughout NTE, most noticeably 3.0. With all due respect to Sagisu, if Nadia's soundtrack was two guys and a Casio, the rearranged tracks sound like Sagisu gave the sheet music to Beethoven and said "just go crazy".

Does his creative career include Legend of Zelda?`

Tout est Perplexe (3.0)-------------------------------------- Fairy Fountain Theme (Legend of Zelda)
https://youtu.be/jKk8xsaPx7k?t=1m55s ----------------- https://youtu.be/CLS9Kx8ALIA
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Postby KRandMJ » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:19 am

I'm fine with visual references like Adam's-Vessel head referencing a Garfish ship.
However I'm not fine with the whole (Misato/Wunder-crew) dynamic. Its feels less like a reference and more like a blatant rip of (Nemo's/Nautilus-crew)
(Imagine if in Nadia; after reuniting with the Natulus crew, Captain Nemo changed character from a brooding leader into a wild-drunk-collage-dude in order to help Nadia relax or something and suddenly Jean pilots a massive cyborg, all taking place underground instead of the sea or air.)

NGE used rifts from "007 Takes The Lektor" for Devise Battle. https://youtu.be/BKCEiNk198E (We all know that) this is nothing new.
Difference be is that NGE had a minuscule television-budget compared to the Rebuilds. You can call it a reference or whatever, it just doesn't sit well with me that Rebuild's (with it's budget) reuses imagery from prior works instead of creating novel content.
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