Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby zlink64 » Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:52 am

If I had to guess the purpose of "Loop" it could be like a thematic purpose for the viewer. Like the struggle Shinji faces isn't a once in life time thing. It's a continuous conflict you face in life everyday. So the way we repeatedly deal with those kinds of issues (Shinji's Issues) in real life is like how Eva repeats itself. And some of the Eva versions say that pain is inevitable and Shinji acknowledges it's gonna happen again eventually but you know you kinda have to just deal with it. This idea of repetition already exist in Eva I think. That just came to mind after thinking of Ground Hogday since the whole point of repetition in that movie is the question "If you had to live your life everyday, forever(I.E repeat), would you be happy or miserable." Both Eva and Groundhog share that whole "whats the point of it all in light of all the crap" vibe, so, I wouldn't say loop theory is completely out of the realm of possibility in relation to theme/moral/lesson anyways. But that's just me completely guessing.

Also given the whole quantum boner Eva has I think something like what pwhodge describe isn't impossible. I kinda hope loop story ends up being true. It's not important or anything but I just like the idea of continuation and that the characters are all connected from version to version.
hmmm

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:50 am

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:I kinda hope loop story ends up being true.

I don't. For as I've already said, weak, poorly thought out and undermines Q
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby zlink64 » Mon Feb 29, 2016 1:27 pm

@arcadia It's too early to say but repetition doesn't necessarily have to be about changing the past. Usually ideas about repetition are more like "the past repeats it-self" which is about not changing. Usually ideas about the future are about change. So you can get ideas like "The Past Repeats but you can decide/change ur future" and that can involve repetition. For example in Ground hog day movie. Every day Bill Murray dealt with the same crap but his attitude towards that crap was different on the different repeating days, so, the days repeated but Bill Murray changed. So you can have this idea of repetition and change happening at once without contradicting yourself. Just throwing ideas around. Like I don't think we should assume a theme about repetition automatically contradicts Q's themes of not being able to change the past. I'm just comparing it Ground Hog day movie cause if Anno does end up using this repetition thing it could possibly be a lot like the way Ground hog day movie uses it. Anyways, my point is it can work without contradicting Q, since, movies/stories like that have been done before.
Or it all could just be a big ass red herring too lol...

P.S Ground Hog Day is a pretty good movie.
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:17 pm

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:Or it all could just be a big ass red herring too lol...


I don't think it is, since nothing in the movies (apart from Kaworu's cryptic lines) even suggests it's in play. Instead it's just something fans invented out of whole cloth, never really giving any thought to what purpose making the new movies a sequel or loop or whatever would serve in Anno's grand narrative.

Groundhog Day was an okay movie, but reducing Eva to that is kinda pathetic IMO. I'd like to think Anno's capable of better.
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby zlink64 » Mon Feb 29, 2016 4:22 pm

Yeah I'm aware of what you describe above but after someone successfully predicting the Mari had the hots for Yui I'm kinda more willing to consider predictions that aren't on solid bedrock you know. And beside this is our last time to even have predictions for eva stuff so might as well enjoy it and humor ideas that are within a decent realm of possible. Let me fan wank while I can!!! lol And you never know anyway.

Also Nah. Your inner Anno fan boy might be too strong lol. Ground hog day was a smart movie; like it's got depth. Um here's some wiki quotes, so, like it's not just me who thinks this: "It has even been dubbed by some religious leaders as the "most spiritual film of our time" and "Groundhog Day may be seen for what it is: a stunning allegory of moral, intellectual, and even religious excellence in the face of postmodern decay,"

I don't think it an insult to Anno to compare it. If anything it a compliment going both ways to compare them but we digress.
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Postby Shark Knight » Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:51 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I don't think it is, since nothing in the movies (apart from Kaworu's cryptic lines) even suggests it's in play.
I'd like to think Anno's capable of better.

You underestimate Anno, I think he does have an awesome mindfuck prepared when how the original and this version are connected. Also it's not just Kaworu's cryptic lines but a lot of imagery. Like, why is there blood in the moon? what where the sarcophagus? Why was there a chalked line of where a crucified MPE in the bay? Why was all the sea from that Area red?
Also if Asuka's name change from Soryu was just aesthetic then how come Anno said it was top secret and how come Kaworu voice actor was entrusted with some Top secret info just because he wanted to see the reaction of his fellow castmates?

This sounds like a lot of fun! If it where not connected at all then it would just be a watered down version with more fanservice.

Anyways back to Asuka, why do you think her previous versions where also featured in the short film? Same with Ikari Shinji.
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:08 pm

View Original PostShark Knight wrote:Also it's not just Kaworu's cryptic lines but a lot of imagery. Like, why is there blood in the moon?

Iirc there are unused storyboards that show the origin of this blood stain being from one of the Adams during 2I. Basically he was somehow catapulted to the moon leaving a blood stain in his wake, and would later become Mk-06 (also the stain in NTE is far too small to be considered the same one from NGE)
what where the sarcophagus?

I'm not sure but there's only a finite number, whilst stories involving time loops often deal with infinity
Why was there a chalked line of where a crucified MPE in the bay?

Storyboards for Jo say it's simply from 2I. And if it's anything like what we find on the moon, then it's most likely the Adam that became Unit-01
Why was all the sea from that Area red?

Simple. 2I's damage is more extensive in NTE than it was in NGE
Also if Asuka's name change from Soryu was just aesthetic then how come Anno said it was top secret and how come Kaworu voice actor was entrusted with some Top secret info just because he wanted to see the reaction of his fellow castmates?

We don't know why. But whatever the reason is, a time loop seems the most illogical since there's no hint of it anywhere else.
Anyways back to Asuka, why do you think her previous versions where also featured in the short film? Same with Ikari Shinji.

I do not know. Then again, Anno didn't direct and the shorts cannonicity is rather dubious, so i wouldn't consider it the best source for forming theories
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby Reichu » Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:21 pm

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:Iirc there are unused storyboards that show the orgigin of this blood stain being from one of the Adams during 2I. Basically he was somehow catapulted to the moon leaving a blood stain in his wake, and would later become Mk-06 (also the stain in NTE is far too small to be considered the same one from NGE)

The unused sequence from the storyboards shows a quiet blood spurt emerging from the South Pole and hitting the Moon. It's unclear why it was cut, but it does provide an in-universe explanation for how the blood, Mark.06, and the Spear of Cassius got on the Moon. Mark.06 is fully intact, so there's no way it could be the source of the blood. My own best guess there is that one of the four Adams swelled to massive proportions (as we can see Lilith was beginning to do during Third Impact), only to have its ATF destabilize and be explosively reduced to ample quantities of the red fluid. (Neb's Key might also be the physical remnants of that particular Adam.)
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:31 pm

View Original PostShark Knight wrote:This sounds like a lot of fun! If it where not connected at all then it would just be a watered down version with more fanservice.


At that point you're underestimating Anno, since you're assuming none of this holds up on its own unless it ties to NGE somehow. But I completely disagree and think the setting of the NTE works just fine on its own, no sequel or reboot required. I think perhaps Anno has more imagination than you give him credit for.
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Postby Shark Knight » Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:50 pm

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:
We don't know why. But whatever the reason is, a time loop seems the most illogical since there's no hint of it anywhere else.


There is still a reason of why them storyboards wherent used, drafts and such get taken out of production for different reasons. Like I stated before, if it's not connected then it just seems like trying to redo your masterpiece for the simple reason of getting money otherwise it's just chasing a shadow that you cant reach. The series of movies already feels like a condenced and much more simplified version of the original altought dont get me wrong, I really like the rebuilds but if you think about it like a continuation or something then you are actually seeing character devolpment that has progressed. How the characters are not as dense as before, how them reacting to stuff that they didnt before etc.

View Original PostBagheera wrote: I think perhaps Anno has more imagination than you give him credit for.


At the contrary, that's why I like the sequel theory. Because I dont think Anno would just go for a remake to big screen series of movies to just have an injection of cash.

Anyways, does anyone have or know where to find the storyboard like drawings that where featured with the short "until you come to me?" I think I have a theory regarding them drawings or at least a cool scenario to describe.
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby Ray » Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:01 pm

Because she knew him for several months as a human being, and 14 years as a coward who could have saved her, and didn't. for 14 years as the one who was responsible for ruining the planet. It's kind've hard to believe someone like that could have kept her Eva from burning up in the atmosphere, especially when you're powered on 14 years of bitterness and hatred towards someone whom you didn't even know all that well to begin with.
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Postby Shark Knight » Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:10 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Because she knew him for several months as a human being, and 14 years as a coward who could have saved her, and didn't. for 14 years as the one who was responsible for ruining the planet. It's kind've hard to believe someone like that could have kept her Eva from burning up in the atmosphere, especially when you're powered on 14 years of bitterness and hatred towards someone whom you didn't even know all that well to begin with.


I dont really think of it that way.
For me it was something like Asuka was probably frustrated because Shinji was her first and last love and now that he was back she had an avalanche of emotions and frustrations awaiting to be unleashed. That is why she punched the crystal, on top of that she got more upset when Shinji could just ask for Rei.

This is another reason of why I like to think the rebuilds are connected, because stuff would make sense otherwise we are just left to assume how the characters are due to the original show.
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby Ray » Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:37 pm

View Original PostShark Knight wrote: For me it was something like Asuka was probably frustrated because Shinji was her first and last love and now that he was back she had an avalanche of emotions and frustrations awaiting to be unleashed. That is why she punched the crystal, on top of that she got more upset when Shinji could just ask for Rei.


She's mentally 28, she's waaaay too old for him. and after 3.33 romance is going to be the last thing on anyone's mind.

It's horrible for me to say, but given how frustrated and bitter I am towards Asuka and most of the cast after 3.33. I hope that in Final Asuka needs Shinji's help, and he just refuses to spite her and everyone else for rejecting him. But Anno won't even allow him that little bit of autonomy and power, and just keeps emasculating the poor kid.

Again, she knew him for a few months as a friend. and over a decade as the one who ruined her life. If your loved one disfigured you, would you really want to forgive him or her? Or would you just tell them to 'f*ck off and go die'? Obviously, the latter, even if they did pull you out of a car accident.

To use an example from my own life.
SPOILER: Show
My girlfriend cheated on me and got pregnant with another guys baby behind my back. I haven't seen her since high school because of that. It really hurt me spiritually and emotionally, I have a hard time trusting people in intimate relationships because she went behind my back. I'd have a few choice words for her if I ever met her again, and I doubt any of them would be kind. and keep in mind, I feel that way about something as trivial as a relationship! If she had physically assaulted me, or left me to die after an accident how do you think I would act? Even if she had changed and reformed and become a better person in that span of time, the last thing I remember of her was being stabbed in the back. I wouldn't want to spend any time around her.


I'm pretty sure Asuka feels the exact same way about Shinji.
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Postby zlink64 » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:03 pm

View Original PostShark Knight wrote:The series of movies already feels like a condensed and much more simplified version of the original

Just FYI since I think you should take it into account based off what you've written. Being simpler was one of the main goals of rebuild from the beginning. I remember when it was announced the two big selling points was that they where going for a brand new ending and that rebuild would be simpler than the original.
So like I know you might think that's bad but it's actually part of what they are going for.
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Postby Reichu » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:20 pm

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:Being simpler was one of the main goals of rebuild from the beginning.

I seem to recall this being in the context of minimizing "complicated language" and such. In that regard, things are the same as they've always been.
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Postby zlink64 » Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:03 pm

Well the complicated language was part of what made old Eva complicated. Like there's less crazy angel on human internal conversations. Less outside reference to psychology and philosophy as far as I can tell; instead things are straight forward. After Q there's less characters to follow than compared to old eva. Like we probably won't have to get Misato or Asuka to figure out Shinji this time around. Like simpler language simplifies the drama part by a lot. Presumably the new ending will have less weird dialogue and be more straight forward like the rest of rebuild has been.
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Postby Shark Knight » Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:25 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:She's mentally 28, she's waaaay too old for him. and after 3.33 romance is going to be the last thing on anyone's mind.

I am gonna have to disagree here, this movies are fan service and already stablished the fairy tale road, Asuka it's the princess that is gonna need to be saved. And besides they have remained as 14 year olds because the neurons and brain never fully developed for them. The brain and hormone functions of a 14 year old will always be those of a 14 year old, well it also depends on the biology in particular.

I think that you are projecting yourself way too much on what you want for the end result and even tought that is your opinion and well respected I think that is actually selfish. Asuka was mean to Shinji because she was super frustrated and had something bottled up for 14 years. Basically it would not be far fetched to think that in between 2.22 and 3.33 an empire strikes back sort of movie happened. So imagine all the stuff they went throught to save Shinji, how physically and emotionally exhausting it would had been for Asuka and the rest of the team only to be slammed again in her face that Shinji is talking about Rei, the person that Asuka was jealous of.

To use an example from my own life.
SPOILER: Show
My girlfriend cheated on me and got pregnant with another guys baby behind my back. I haven't seen her since high school because of that. It really hurt me spiritually and emotionally, I have a hard time trusting people in intimate relationships because she went behind my back. I'd have a few choice words for her if I ever met her again, and I doubt any of them would be kind. and keep in mind, I feel that way about something as trivial as a relationship! If she had physically assaulted me, or left me to die after an accident how do you think I would act? Even if she had changed and reformed and become a better person in that span of time, the last thing I remember of her was being stabbed in the back. I wouldn't want to spend any time around her.


I am really sorry that you got cucked man, like really really sorry but but Ikari Shinji didnt got knocked up by Rei and it was all a misunderstanding on Asuka's part and on Shinjis cluenessness. Rei and Shinji's relationship on Rebuild its more akin to siblings. Asuka didnt know crap back then but I am sure that by this point she already knows what Asuka was and that she was not able to fall in love due to her nature. And because she was literally a clone of Shinji's mom. We will see if she knew or had no idea on the next movie. But TBH I am rooting for her and to Shinji to open once more to her like she did on 2.22.

Another reason of why I insist that rebuild is connected to the originals, is that THAT would explain why the characters are subconciously attracted to one another or simply have their development worked a lot easier.


Also is it ok to discuss the sequel theory here? Or should I go to the correct thread?
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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:18 am

View Original PostRay wrote:for 14 years as the one who was responsible for ruining the planet.

But evidence suggests he didn't though
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby Ray » Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:21 am

Okay for the sake of argument, don't count the "destroyed the planet" part. My argument for everything else still stands!
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:50 am

View Original PostRay wrote:I hope that in Final Asuka needs Shinji's help, and he just refuses to spite her and everyone else

So you just want him to become the brat that Asuka thinks he is? Do you really want to think he's got no capacity to become better than that? I believe that Eva's vision is about overcoming problems in life, not giving in to them.
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