Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:52 am

@ Sachi

But how are they incompatible? I actually want to hear this... well read it cause it's the typing and all that, I've personally seen nothing that can't be explained.

When you say timelines, I actually mean time and not a reality/universe/world.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:13 am

Chaddy, stop trolling. You know full well why the timelines are incompatible, as it's been explained at length in the sequel theory thread (and you've posted there, so you've presumably read it).
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:30 am

I'm not trolling, I'm being serious, no one has explained why the timeline of events are incompatible, they follow quite a linear path to me.
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Postby Lennik » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:43 pm

View Original PostChaddyManPrime wrote:That's the first I've heard of the timelines being incompatible, it's usually about scenery, care to explain, Good Sir? Because I think the timeline shown in 3.0 Works really well with EoE's.


Yeah, you are trolling, and it's a serious change in subject, because this is about NTE Asuka and her reaction to NTE Shinji.

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:13 pm

View Original PostChaddyManPrime wrote:I'm not trolling, I'm being serious, no one has explained why the timeline of events are incompatible, they follow quite a linear path to me.

Start a new thread in which you lay out how you think they fit together, and we can discuss it.
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Postby Shark Knight » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:15 pm

View Original PostChaddyManPrime wrote:I'm not trolling, I'm being serious, no one has explained why the timeline of events are incompatible, they follow quite a linear path to me.

Well I am not sure what you mean with this but I am pretty supportive and confident on the timeloop groundhog day theory. Besides Groundhog day movie was really cool and fun dont you think? hehehe

Anyways at this point it could really be anything about Asuka needing help. It could be from the very simple fact that Mari urged Shinji to help her after she was ejected from her unit. To an actual depression or unrelease thing that she has been holding for 14 years, from being jealous to have been needing his comfort and company after she got out of her injuries sustained.

Maybe Mari is aware of the previous timeloop? Who knows, but the if Anno its following the fairytail format then Shinji is gonna step his game next movie and save Asuka from wathever it is that she needs to be saved.
I do believe that if the groundhog theory its correct then maybe their lives and memories of their past loop still exist deep within their subconciousness and this new world was created to be more mellow to them "as if it took just a small ounce of pity on them but not that much" perhaps also because it's an entire series condenced on 3-4 movies.

When I saw 2 and 4 what crossed my mind was. When Anno made NGE and EOE he was depressed and romanticized that into a movie. But in this new ones you see as if he where saying "there is still hope for a happiness and there was one indeed! and I have found it"
I know this because I also suffered from depression in the past "I still do" but this days it can be controlled due to super special awesome anti depressives. But back in the 90's there was no such thing, and I DO GET what Anno went throught. Even tought I was just a brat back then.
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby unitM » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:44 am

I think there's a lot of evidence through the NTE series to suggest a loop in the timelines. I don't think there's any definitive evidence of loop theories... but why are they incompatible? There's nothing in NTE that explicitly states "there most definitely wasn't a loop from the original series here"(just as there's no confirmation of a loop itself).

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Last edited by unitM on Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:49 am

View Original PostunitM wrote:Sequel/loop theory hasn't been proven but that doesn't in itself falsify the theory. The burden of proof is on the theory itself to actually provide evidence, I'll admit, but that doesn't disqualify the theory from being worthwhile. There is ample evidence that at the very least hints at the NGE timeline - but even so, there's still nothing that directly states "NTE is a continuation of NGE." I think there is evidence to suggest that a loop might be in play but that's just my suggestion.


A loop is plausible, but the evidence suggests that a sequel is not (and is in fact impossible).
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:02 am

A loop would simply undermine a lot of what Q taught us after it beat us over the head with how you can't go back and change the past
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:05 am

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:A loop would simply undermine a lot of what Q taught us after it beat us over the head with how you can't go back and change the past


Certainly. I don't think it's likely, and think it would be a narrative copout in the worst possible way, but it is technically possible. Really really bad, but possible.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:08 am

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:A loop would simply undermine a lot of what Q taught us after it beat us over the head with how you can't go back and change the past

Does anyone have a subtitled screencap of Fuyutsuki saying "The world can be reversed no more than time."? It seems silly that there are still people who want to believe in those theories after a line like that was spoken in the movie.
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Postby unitM » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:16 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:A loop is plausible, but the evidence suggests that a sequel is not (and is in fact impossible).


Why is a sequel "factually impossible," exactly?

NTE is a sci-fi series and the sci-fi genre(and NTE) doesn't stray from the theme of time distortion. There is also a lot of imagery that has relevance in the original series, that makes watchers of NGE curious. On the contrary, there's no documentation that states(or even, imo, suggests) that says that a sequel absolutely cannot happen.

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:A loop would simply undermine a lot of what Q taught us after it beat us over the head with how you can't go back and change the past


But that's not true; that's your interpretation of what a loop would do to the series. A loop hasn't been confirmed, so what you're saying about what a loop will to the series is just speculation on your part. You aren't responsible for incorporating that element into the plot(if it's to be put there at all); Anno is.

TheFriskyIan wrote:Does anyone have a subtitled screencap of Fuyutsuki saying "The world can be reversed no more than time."? It seems silly that there are still people who want to believe in those theories after a line like that was spoken in the movie.


Ah, you mean like that whole speech Kaworu gave Shinji about his will set to roam earth for eternity? I remember that one too.

And btw, the fact that Fuyu actually mentioned something like that imo gives more value to the loop theory than it takes away.

It's still just a theory, I just think it's silly to express full belief in it, in either direction. Just because it's a theory, doesn't mean it's true, nor does it mean it's false(although the owness is on the theory to display proof).

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:32 am

View Original PostunitM wrote:Why is a sequel "factually impossible," exactly?


Apart from the obvious (nobody remembers NGE, the "evidence" has all been explained away, Yui and Unit 01 left Earth, etc) the big reason is because the underlying metaphysics of the NTE are dramatically different from those of NGE. We have four Adams vs. one, the Evas operate very differently, Lilith's relationship with humanity is different, etc. Absent a compelling reason to believe 3I would change the metaphysics of the setting (and account for all the obvious problems with sequel theory) there's no reason to believe it's even remotely possible.

NTE is a sci-fi series and the sci-fi genre(and NTE) doesn't stray from the theme of time distortion. There is also a lot of imagery that has relevance in the original series, that makes watchers of NGE curious. On the contrary, there's no documentation that states(or even, imo, suggests) that says that a sequel absolutely cannot happen.


There is, actually. Things like staff saying outright that the new movies are not a sequel. Like, there's a direct quote of them saying that. So yes, we actually do have documentation telling us the NTE can't be a sequel, and we also have all of the above evidence which tells us the same. The new movies might be a loop, but they cannot be a sequel unless it involves fundamentally rewriting reality for some reason (and really, at that point why even bother?).
Last edited by Bagheera on Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Shark Knight » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:44 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:
There is, actually. Things like staff saying outright that the new movies are not a sequel. Like, there's a direct quote of them saying that. So yes, we actually do have documentation telling us the NTE can't be a sequel, and we also have all of the above evidence which tells us the same. The new movies might be a loop, but they cannot be a sequel unless it involved fundamentally rewriting reality for some reason (and really, at that point why even bother?).


But didnt they supposedly said as well that there was also a connection to the originals? I may not know that much but from what I gathered that is what I heard.
Humanity and living beings may have looped but the world did not, didnt unit-001 said that as long as there was a sun, a planet and a moon everything would go on or something at the EOE?

Also what do you think is the meaning of Asuka's last name change? Do you think it was by pure aesthetic? or will it be a key thing during the next movie? Anno did say that it was top secret after all.
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Postby TheFriskyIan » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:51 am

View Original PostShark Knight wrote:But didnt they supposedly said as well that there was also a connection to the originals? I may not know that much but from what I gathered that is what I heard.

I imagine that would simply be the nudges/cameos in the first half of 1.0.
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Postby unitM » Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:04 pm

Valid points. I guess we're going to have to see where the series goes.

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:27 pm

View Original PostunitM wrote:But that's not true; that's your interpretation of what a loop would do to the series. A loop hasn't been confirmed, so what you're saying about what a loop will to the series is just speculation on your part. You aren't responsible for incorporating that element into the plot(if it's to be put there at all); Anno is.

And knowing Anno, i (and i believe many others) can safely imagine him not resorting to use such a weak and poorly thought out narrative twist
Never let the flame that is hope burn out, for despite the length of the night, the sunrise will always come
""Trolling the audience" is the same thing as "challenging the audience" (to an audience that doesn't want to be challenged)." -Reichu

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:45 pm

That's the main argument against a loop IMO -- it's hard to see how it would add anything to the story. It's not impossible, it's just . . . why, man? What's the point? Unless you're doing something like Groundhog Day, where the loop is the point of the exercise, I can't see why Anno would bother.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Shark Knight » Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:07 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:That's the main argument against a loop IMO -- it's hard to see how it would add anything to the story. It's not impossible, it's just . . . why, man? What's the point? Unless you're doing something like Groundhog Day, where the loop is the point of the exercise, I can't see why Anno would bother.

Well that's the point, if we knew then there wouldnt be any point. Mystery it's what makes stories interesting. If the loop isnt there then it would be just pretty pointless to do the entire thing over again but with less everything for the big screen. It's like, I already had a big ass chocolate cake but now you are giving me a recreation of that same thing but as a brownie...
That would add nothing but if you made an actual sequel of it as a continuation dish then that would actually make everything worth while and not just a cheap cash grab.

We know that Anno isnt your typical cheap hollywood sir with no imagination. Anno does have imagination and I am interested to see what he is gonna pull off from this.
I want to see why the name change for Asuka was such a top secret among many other stuff.

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:I imagine that would simply be the nudges/cameos in the first half of 1.0.

Seriously? Then why did Kaworu said "3rth again? and This time I will make you happy for sure? why was there blood on the moon among any other things?"

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:And knowing Anno, i (and i believe many others) can safely imagine him not resorting to use such a weak and poorly thought out narrative twist

I am actually interested on what his take for such thing would be, if it is even a loop. As far as I am concerned it could even be a sequel or recreation of the same world. Heck, that same thing happened on the manga didnt it?
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:27 am

View Original PostShark Knight wrote:I am actually interested on what his take for such thing would be, if it is even a loop. As far as I am concerned it could even be a sequel or recreation of the same world. Heck, that same thing happened on the manga didnt it?

I don't see the manga that way. I imagine some kind of multiverse in which every possible outcome exists in a sort of quantum state, and our consciousness follows and instantiates one particular path; but at the end, Shinji is able, through his understanding, to flip his consciousness across to a different path which then becomes his reality.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: The end of the journey (details); Past avatars.
Before 3.0+1.0 there was Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)


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